Forgiveness In The Midst

[gamornin]

I was seeking answers in today's conference talks and particularly paid attention to the talk on forgiveness. I believed it whole heartedly, but still struggle for more.

We are counseled to forgive everyone. I have lived this so much, I usually find it pretty easy actually---until recently. Our leaders and the scriptures speak often of forgiving everyone and of specific instances where great people have forgiven difficult things. Today, the talk mentioned forgiving drunk drivers or other murderers who killed loved ones and offerring support and kindness--specifically talking in detail about the Omish community who offerred support and kindness to the family of the murderer who attacked them. The man was dead. In the other instances, the perpetrators were given justice. The Elder talked of seeking justice and not revenge.

My question is this... Would it have been different if the man had returned multiple times or lived amongst them torturing their people. Would they forgive and offer kindness in the midst of being tortured? Would they sacrifice their children? Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do? Would defending themselves have been justified?

I am in a situation which continually taxes my soul. I am forced to continually send my child to someone who hurts her. I have sought justice, and have received none. I have prayed, sought counsel, fasted, wrestled for years desperately trying to do and to feel what is right. Never in my life would I have thought murder would enter my mind, and yet it has. I'm not saying I'm going to murder someone. i'm not. I'm just struggling with trying to know what is right. Of course I feel obligated and compelled to protect my daughter and I have done everything within the law that I can do. What now? How do I make my heart right with sending my daughter into danger just because the law says I have to? How do I feel forgiveness for a man who continues to hurt my child? How do I explain things to her? I love her, The Lord loves her, but we have to let her be hurt?

I know that negative feelings can take away from the Spirit. I have tried to let it go. I know the Lord loves her and i have tried to leave it in His hands after all I can do, but it never feels like I've done enough. I have considered that perhaps this the test that my daughter and I will need to face together and overcome with faith. It doesn't sit right. She is not even five yet. She's my responsibility. She doesn't understand. What is right?

I am interested in honest doctrine. I am desperate for what is 'right' and to reconcile myself with that.

Counsel? (sorry so long)

[CrimsonKairos]

Who's hurting your daughter? What laws say she has to go where she gets hurt?

We need more info before we can offer meaningful replies.

???

[gamornin]

Who's hurting your daughter? What laws say she has to go where she gets hurt?

We need more info before we can offer meaningful replies.

???

It is her father. We have been going back and forth to court for four years now. He started abusing her when she was one and she told everyone, her therapist, her doctor, and of course me and other members of my family repeatedly. DCFS substantiated the claim, yet because a young child is considered an "unreliable witness" and there's no way to prove the abuse, and because her father has a very aggressive attorney, he has succeeded in now having joint physical custody. I have been her primary caregiver all of her life and for most of it, because of her descriptions of abuse, he had supervised visits and no overnights. Now because of his persistence in the court, and lack of absolute proof, we share a joint physical custody schedule where we each have 2 nights per week and rotate 3 day weekends. She comes home with stories of being given alcohol, of him taking naked pictures of her, of him killing her dog (our dog did dissappear), etc. She begs me to change things and I have continued to try withinn the law, but haven't had any luck. He continues to claim that I make it all up or coach her to say things.

So, how do I handle this 'right' within the gospel?

[MaidservantX]

I would not get definite answers here. Support yes. I'm sure I do not have to tell you, DO NOT GIVE UP! Pray to know the next door, the next resource! I know there are places in this nation SOMEWHERE that deal with this kind of situation.

Keep a journal of everything that your daughter says and related things. Keep a journal, period.

Forgiveness does NOT mean allowing abuse, you know that.

[gamornin]

I would not get definite answers here. Support yes. I'm sure I do not have to tell you, DO NOT GIVE UP! Pray to know the next door, the next resource! I know there are places in this nation SOMEWHERE that deal with this kind of situation.

Keep a journal of everything that your daughter says and related things. Keep a journal, period.

Forgiveness does NOT mean allowing abuse, you know that.

I don't expect answers about what to do with my case. (Althought, that'd be great!)

I'm really looking for spiritual guidance and how to reconcile counsel. No, forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean allowing abuse, but if I'm doing all I can legally do, then what? I'm still required to keep an attitude of charity, forgiveness, love, and submit to the Lord in all things. I've tried not to give in to despair, and have tried not to feel too negatively. I am remarried and have other children as well. I don't want this to destroy our family or detract from the Spirit in our home. I want to enstill hope and faith in all of my children. At the same time, they have no reason to feel security or trust in me while I am sending one of us to a place where she is hurt. I'm just really struggling for what is right. If I could know what that is, I'd do it. I have felt that I did until recently, and now every day it feels wrong. I've thought of running, even of somehow giving her away, even of murder....but none of those things would be right either. I keep thinking of the talk someone gave in a past conference "But if not..." If anyone is familiar. Basically, I pray for her to be saved, but if not, give us the strength to get through it with faith. Mostly, I pray for guidance and I continue to try to keep myself open for inspiration. It is tremendously difficult. Any help would be appreciated.

[CrimsonKairos]

First priority is of course making sure your daughter is safe.

If you can find it in yourself to pray for your ex-husband, ask God to change his heart, to help him see what a horrible path he's on, and that he's taking your daughter down a horrible path too.

Forgiveness does not equal becoming a doormat for the world.

You know what I'd do? This has nothing to do with the gospel, really, just pragmatism. I'd hire a P.I. or even two to "tail" your ex when he has your daughter...see where they go, surveil their house, use listening devices, etc...

But that's just me. Of course the purpose would be to acquire proof that would hold up in court and advance your cause to have sole custody of your daughter. Just my opinion, not really suggesting you do it or anything. I don't know all the specifics of the situation, just going on what you've shared thus far. Good luck with your battle, and keep fighting!

[pixiemom]

I am so sorry to hear about your situation. We have had lots of problems with custody too only ours is the other way around with the mom neglicting the kids and we can't do anything about it.

One thing I can tell you is get another lawyer. Some are more aggresive than others. Sometimes you have to have one who will go after everything and anything. If all you can do is fight him through the law do it!!!!

The PI idea is great. Exactly what I thought. Call the police and ask for a well child check. Call DCFS as soon as she gets back or even before. If you don't have time to even talk to her when she comes back then they can't think you are coaching her. You have to fight for her. You can't think that eventually you will get her away and then she can heal. The longer she is abused the longer her life will be a mess and will take longer to have any good relationships with men and with people in general. And eventually she might hate you for knowing about all of this and not stopping it. You have to fight! I have other children too but they are ok. They are safe and they know we love them, but they also know that they have a brother and sister who are not loved and taken care of. Any oversight or sometimes not having enough time or being stressed out is understood b/c they love them too. Don't gve up. I know sometimes it is so overwhelming and is easier to just let it go, but it is our job to protect them no matter what. Good luck! Keep praying for her and to know the right path. Try fasting for an answer. HF loves your daughter and he will help you to find the answer.

I'm not sure that forgivness is even the issue right now. Right now you need to take care of your daughter and focus on that.

[MaidservantX]

By the way, occasionally, being angry IS the right thing. There is such a thing as righteous anger. Almost no one knows how to use it. But study, ponder and pray about Jesus's anger as he cleared mockers and abusers away from the sacred temple.

[a-train]

Forgiveness to the unrepentant will NOT help them. Nor will it take away the pain still inflicted in the victim. What forgiveness DOES give is freedom to the forgiver. It casts the scales of hate from our eyes and allows us to understand the LORD will bless us according to our obedience and we do NOT need to get revenge to become happy or to grow temporally or spiritually. Forgiveness allows us to move on and continue our progression towards God without harrowing ourselves up in bitterness. It DOES NOT mean we are to submit oursevles as victims.

I would GO TO THE LAW!!! I know of a girl on my street whose father obtained full custody of her based on a single allegation that her Mother's new husband violated her. The violation stipulated although repugnant was far from rape, battery, or any permanently damaging or physically violent act. It is believed by everyone around that she only made the claim to live with her Dad who promised a less constrictive household than her mother's. Still, the law sided with the 13-year old's testimony and wishes.

If your daughter is truly being victimized and she and yourself are both wondering what is to be done, I would contact a group such as: Women Helping Battered Women of Vermont. You are probably not in Vermont, but a Google search for a similar organization in your area will provide counseling in regard to the matter. Your Bishop should also be made known of the situation as well (if your husband is in the Church the Brethren should be aware that these allegations are being made).

TALK TO YOUR DAUGHTER!! Understand how severe the situation is. If something illegal is going on, Authorities need to know immediately! You and her should be VERY open and clear with one another and pray together seeking direction from the Spirit NOW!

Remember also: If you delay in reporting illegal behaviour, this will NOT help your testimony!

GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR CHILD!

-a-train

[gamornin]

Forgiveness to the unrepentant will NOT help them. Nor will it take away the pain still inflicted in the victim. What forgiveness DOES give is freedom to the forgiver. It casts the scales of hate from our eyes and allows us to understand the LORD will bless us according to our obedience and we do NOT need to get revenge to become happy or to grow temporally or spiritually. Forgiveness allows us to move on and continue our progression towards God without harrowing ourselves up in bitterness. It DOES NOT mean we are to submit oursevles as victims.

I would GO TO THE LAW!!! I know of a girl on my street whose father obtained full custody of her based on a single allegation that her Mother's new husband violated her. The violation stipulated although repugnant was far from rape, battery, or any permanently damaging or physically violent act. It is believed by everyone around that she only made the claim to live with her Dad who promised a less constrictive household than her mother's. Still, the law sided with the 13-year old's testimony and wishes.

If your daughter is truly being victimized and she and yourself are both wondering what is to be done, I would contact a group such as: Women Helping Battered Women of Vermont. You are probably not in Vermont, but a Google search for a similar organization in your area will provide counseling in regard to the matter. Your Bishop should also be made known of the situation as well (if your husband is in the Church the Brethren should be aware that these allegations are being made).

TALK TO YOUR DAUGHTER!! Understand how severe the situation is. If something illegal is going on, Authorities need to know immediately! You and her should be VERY open and clear with one another and pray together seeking direction from the Spirit NOW!

Remember also: If you delay in reporting illegal behaviour, this will NOT help your testimony!

GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR CHILD!

-a-train

Thank you for this. Your first paragraph is where I'm coming from. I don't want to feel bitter. I want to move on with my family and feel like I'm headed where I need to be. It's just that I feel so helpless. And it feels impossible to let go of hard feelings and constant contention/fear when I have to deal with him and send her to him so regularly. I really have gone to the law and will continue to do that as much as I can. However, around here for some reason they've got it down to where they assume if accusations come up during a divorce or custody case, they figure they are false. At least that's what he's got them thinking. I don't understand since she was so little and barely talking when she made her first claims. I couldn't have 'coached' her to say such things so consistently that would be so foreign to her! The law seems to be around only to protect the accused, not the victim. If there's not definate proof, they can't do anything if he fights hard enough. The more I fight and make accusations, the more I look like the unreasonable parent trying to keep a child away from her father. It's very frustrating. But anyway, there's no doubt that this situation we are in is not fair and doesn't make any sense, but we've got to find a way through it regardless. I just don't know how to move ahead and feel good about things when this is so wrong! It's difficult to teach my children and keep a positive and spirit in our home. It's difficult to expect them to trust me. It's difficult not to fall in to despair, but I'm desperately trying.

Thanks.

Oh, and by the way, I did think about a detective, and about hired one, but then i felt silly. He's not going to abuse her on his front lawn.