Invited the missionaries now what?

[howdeedoo]

Investigation of the LDS faith is simple: Put Moroni's challenge to the test.

Moroni 10:3-5

With this witness, everything else becomes clear.

Without this witness, nothing else matters.

That's not to say that there aren't good questions to ask. But what's important is this question: "Does God want you to join the LDS faith?"

If yes, does anything else matter?

If no, does it still matter?

If you are still having cognitive dissonance after the trial of your faith, we can help to clarify and add insight. But without a witness, it just becomes that much harder.

Take for example someone giving you a glass that looks like water. There are however quite a few different liquids out there that look like water. If someone came along and said to you before you drink it, this is not water. He could have a good point.

How you'd go about determining that are just simple tests, we've evolved them over time. There are many ways one could determine if indeed it is water that is contained in the glass. One could taste to see if it tastes like water, if it freezes like water, if it evaporates like water, when you shake the glass does it behave like water, determine the amount hydrogen per oxygen present / molecule ect...

However if when testing it tastes odd, doesn't freeze, evaporates rather quickly, the hydrogen count is off ect... you start looking at that glass of liquid as something other than water.

One thing for sure, the more tests you apply and it comes positive for "like water" can you be sure this liquid is water. It's simple, it's human like behavior and we all do it from the simple ones to the more complex ones all the time.

The "good, hopeful, high oxytocin feeling" is something everyone gets from praying. May it be muslims, catholics, latter day saints, protestants, jews, hindus ect...

The power of prayer is real. It releases, in some cases massive amounts of oxytocin also named the love hormone in the brain. You can also trigger it by hugging someone, try it you will see, the harder (closer) and the more intimate you are with the person you are hugging the more you release!

My whole point is prayer is just one of those tests. Even if the Book of Mormon comes out positive through this test, so does Bible (christians) so does the Koran (muslims) so does the Talmud (jews) and I could list any number of books that people have prayed about and thought it to be true.

My response is simple. Just because it looks, smells, and behaves like the liquid in a glass of water doesn't make it water. Just one test doesn't mean the Book of Mormon is true. Prayer is known to make you feel good, and that will be true for any book you are praying about.

Shake the glass! Freeze the liquid! Taste it!

Edited July 20, 2013 by howdeedoo

[estradling75]

Take for example someone giving you a glass that looks like water. There are however quite a few different liquids out there that look like water. If someone came along and said to you before you drink it, this is not water. He could have a good point.

How you'd go about determining that are just simple tests, we've evolved them over time. There are many ways one could determine if indeed it is water that is contained in the glass. One could taste to see if it tastes like water, if it freezes like water, if it evaporates like water, when you shake the glass does it behave like water, determine the amount hydrogen per oxygen present / molecule ect...

However if when testing it tastes odd, doesn't freeze, evaporates rather quickly, the hydrogen count is off ect... you start looking at that glass of liquid as something other than water.

One thing for sure, the more tests you apply and it comes positive for "like water" can you be sure this liquid is water. It's simple, it's human like behavior and we all do it from the simple ones to the more complex ones all the time.

The "good, hopeful, high oxytocin feeling" is something everyone gets from praying. May it be muslims, catholics, latter day saints, protestants, jews, hindus ect...

The power of prayer is real. It releases, in some cases massive amounts of oxytocin also named the love hormone in the brain. You can also trigger it by hugging someone, try it you will see, the harder (closer) and the more intimate you are with the person you are hugging the more you release!

My whole point is prayer is just one of those tests. Even if the Book of Mormon comes out positive through this test, so does Bible (christians) so does the Koran (muslims) so does the Talmud (jews) and I could list any number of books that people have prayed about and thought it to be true.

My response is simple. Just because it looks, smells, and behaves like the liquid in a glass of water doesn't make it water. Just one test doesn't mean the Book of Mormon is true. Prayer is known to make you feel good, and that will be true for any book you are praying about.

Shake the glass! Freeze the liquid! Taste it!

There is a few problems with your line of thought.

First while the LDS Church claims to be the only True Church... We do not claim to have an exclusive lock on all truth. Other religions all have various levels of truth and God is no respecter of persons so anyone seeking him in prayer is going to be answered. Therefore it is entirely possible that the 'oxytocin effect' is a side effect rather then cause.

Second the impressions of the spirit are commonly referred to and potentially confused with emotional responses... However to call a spiritual impression to simply be an emotional response is to straw man the idea. Part of the learning how to know when a person is getting (or feeling) an impression is learning how to separate it from their own emotional responses. This is by no means easy. But when a person learns how they can tell the difference. It just can be hard to express without using terms also used to express emotional events.

So by all means test it... But be careful in your testing that you don't throw out the proof God gives you just because you want it in another form.

[howdeedoo]

"First while the LDS Church claims to be the only True Church... We do not claim to have an exclusive lock on all truth. Other religions all have various levels of truth and God is no respecter of persons so anyone seeking him in prayer is going to be answered. Therefore it is entirely possible that the 'oxytocin effect' is a side effect rather then cause."

Exactly so the Book of Mormon can't be proven by prayer. Thank you, that's exactly what I was trying to say. You can throw out the rest if you wish.

Thx for the help! :)

[estradling75]

"First while the LDS Church claims to be the only True Church... We do not claim to have an exclusive lock on all truth. Other religions all have various levels of truth and God is no respecter of persons so anyone seeking him in prayer is going to be answered. Therefore it is entirely possible that the 'oxytocin effect' is a side effect rather then cause."

Exactly so the Book of Mormon can't be proven by prayer. Thank you, that's exactly what I was trying to say. You can throw out the rest if you wish.

Thx for the help! :)

Except it doesn't help you... You infer exclusivity where we do not. If someone who already believes in the Bible reads the Book of Mormon and 'feels' the same way and they do when they read Bible... it doesn't make the Bible suddenly false. It means they have more material to study and work with as they learn and grow. The Book of Mormon is 'proved' to be true along with the Bible

[howdeedoo]

Oh ok, I'm sorry let me explain. The method of praying about the book of mormon does not prove the book to be true, because all prayer makes us feel good and be inclined to what we are praying about, rendering it biased. You could be praying to Zeus and you'd feel just as good. We climbed the mountains, no Zeus practice fell out.

I was trying to say find other methods, because prayer like a good hug just increases oxytocin levels. That's all.

Simplicity is beautiful too, no need to complicate everything :)

[estradling75]

Assuming you don't believe in God and it is just a physical reaction.

If you believe in God and you believe he will communicate with us then you need to listen and learn.

Thus we can argue cause and effect all day and not agree because we are coming at it from very different 'Presumed and Accepted Truths'

[Just_A_Guy]

Oh ok, I'm sorry let me explain. The method of praying about the book of mormon does not prove the book to be true, because all prayer makes us feel good and be inclined to what we are praying about, rendering it biased. You could be praying to Zeus and you'd feel just as good. We climbed the mountains, no Zeus practice fell out.

I was trying to say find other methods, because prayer like a good hug just increases oxytocin levels. That's all.

Simplicity is beautiful too, no need to complicate everything :)

Point taken, but forgive me for noting that it rather seems articulated from the point of view of somebody who has never received a "no" in answer to a prayer.

That may be your experience; but I'd suggest you think twice before projecting it onto us.

[Leah]

"First while the LDS Church claims to be the only True Church... We do not claim to have an exclusive lock on all truth. Other religions all have various levels of truth and God is no respecter of persons so anyone seeking him in prayer is going to be answered. Therefore it is entirely possible that the 'oxytocin effect' is a side effect rather then cause."

Exactly so the Book of Mormon can't be proven by prayer. Thank you, that's exactly what I was trying to say. You can throw out the rest if you wish.

Thx for the help! :)

Is that your reason for being on this site? To give your pre-conceived opinion of the Book of Mormon?

[bytebear]

Oh ok, I'm sorry let me explain. The method of praying about the book of mormon does not prove the book to be true, because all prayer makes us feel good and be inclined to what we are praying about, rendering it biased. You could be praying to Zeus and you'd feel just as good. We climbed the mountains, no Zeus practice fell out.

I was trying to say find other methods, because prayer like a good hug just increases oxytocin levels. That's all.

Simplicity is beautiful too, no need to complicate everything :)

By your definition there is no faith, no communion with God, no way to know anything from God. Does that mean you are an atheist? Or do you believe your analogy only works with the Book of Mormon or Zeus, but does not apply to the Bible, Koran, etc.? Simply put, your logic blocks you from all belief, a very narrow way to view the universe.