Gentile Church

[Speakzeasy]

Note that as I begin this, I realize that to place four chapters of text from the Book of Mormon is a bit much. So to make the post shorter, I would like to encourage the reader to use a copy of the Book Mormon to follow along with it.)

The belief that the Church of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) is that it is the only true church upon the earth stems from 1 Ne. 14:10, which states:

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth (1 Ne 14:10).

Members of the LDS Church have been taught that the Church is the only true church using this verse as a bases for that belief.

Here is a different look at the vision recorded in 1 Nephi 11-14:

(Dates for the Book of Mormon events are from the publication of LDS Church.)

<b>Geography</b>: Roman Empire

<b>Dates:</b> about 1 B.C.-33

The the tree of life and the birth and death of Jesus Christ: 1 Ne. 11:7-36.

<b>Geography:</b> North America

<b>Dates:</b> about 1 A.D-34

The condition and state of iniquity of the descendants of Lehi proir to the visit of Jesus Christ: 1Ne. 12:1-5.

The visit that Jesus Christ makes with the Nephites: 1 Ne. 12:6-10.

<b>Dates:</b> 34-210

The Nephites are righteous for four generations: 1 Ne. 12:12.

<b>Dates:</b> about 210-1492

The Nephites reject the Gopsel of Jesus Chirst; are given to wars with the Lamanites; dwindle in unbelief: 1 Ne. 12:13-23.

<b>Geography:</b> Europe

<b>Dates:</b> 312-1620

The nations and kingdoms of Europe: 1 Ne. 13:1-3.

The spiritual condition of the Europeans: 1 Ne. 13:5-9.

The Atlantic ocean is between America and Europe: 1 Ne. 13:10.

Nephi is told of God's wrath that against the American Indians: 1 Ne. 13:11.

Christopher Columbus is given the Holy Ghost: 1 Ne. 13:12.

The Holy Ghost is given to the European religious separatist (colonization started in 1620). Inspiring them to cross the Atlanic Ocean: 1 Ne. 13:13.

<b>Geography:</b> America

<b>Date:</b> about 1620-1783

The Holy Ghost is upon the colonist of America and so that they did prosper: 1 Ne. 13:15-16.

The American Revelationary War: 1 Ne. 13:17-19

<b>Dates:</b> 1620-1830

Back ground given of the Bible: 1 Ne. 13:20-29.

The Bible is among the Americans (1620-1830): 1 Ne. 13:29-30.

The American Indian Wars from about 1622 until around 1924: 1 Ne. 13:31, 33-34.

Dates: 1830

The reason that the Book of Mormon is brought forth to the Gentiles: 1 Ne. 13:32, 34

(Note that the reason for the Book of Mormon is "the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back (1 Ne. 13:34) from the Bible they had brought from Europe. The Gentiles of America did not know anything of the fullness of the Gospel or have the fullness of the gospel before this. So when did the Gentiles receive and were taught about the fullness of the Gospel?)

The Nephites write a history that is to come forth to the Gentiles in the United States of America: 1 Ne. 13:35-36.

Likewise, Nephi explains part of the vision to his brothers:

13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles (Americans), is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles (Americans), and from the Gentiles (Americans) unto the remnant of our seed (1 Ne. 15:13).

<b>Dates:</b> 1830-Future

-- Nephi leaves a gap here. It is interesting to note that Nephi only picks important events while writing about his vision --

Dates: 1946-Future

Here Jesus fills some of the gap that Nephi leaves in his vision:

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles (Americans) shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them (Americans).

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles (everyone not gathered to Zion) shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel. (3 Ne. 16:10-11)

The word "from" at the end of both 1 Ne. 13:10 and 3 Ne. 15:13 is "used as a function word to indicate physical separation or an act or condition of removal" (Merrian Webster 10th dictionary).

After Jesus Christ ". . .will bring the fulness of my gospel from among . . ." (1 Ne. 16:10) the Gentiles, then 1 Ne. 14:10 belongs to this story:

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth (1 Ne 14:10).

1 Nephi 13:37-13:38 are about the people gathered to Zion (the kingdom of God). They are yet future.

Note that story in 1 Ne. 13:39 and 2 Ne. 29:12-13 are inconsistent with one another. They are the same story.

1 Ne. 13:40-41 relates to the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon to the Gentiles in America.

1 Ne. 13:42 tells how these things work from the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The fullness of the Gospel is given to the House of Israel, in the people of Manasseh (Jews). The fullness of the Gospel is given to the Gentiles in America (Gentiles), this used twice. The righteous of the house of recieve the fullness of the Gospel (Jews).

1 Nephi 14:1-6 relates to the scripture that shall be given to the people gathered in Zion.

1 Nephi 14:7 relates to the missionary work of the house of Israel from Zion.

1 Ne. 14:9 gives the meaning and purpose of the events that are recorded in the Book of Revelation.

From here the vision is an overlap of John's vision recorded in the Book of Revelation. The focas of the subject is different, the time period is the same.

So the Gentiles received the fullness of the Gospel in 1830 when Book of Mormon was published (1 Ne. 13:34). Not the house of Israel. Re-read 1 Ne. 15:13 and see if you can explain how the Gentiles the Mediterranean region received the fullness of the Gospel during the first century A.D..

Gentiles of America cannot be the same people as the house of Israel. Otherwise the Gentiles of America would be called the house of Israel. Gentiles of America and the house of Israel are not the same group of people.

[skalenfehl]

Jacob 5 does a perfect job in explaining the distinctions between literal Israel and adopted Israel.

Jesus Christ also declared:

3 Ne 16:13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

Furthermore, the words spoken by Joseph Smith when dedicating the Kirtland temple:

D&C 109:59 We ask thee to appoint unto Zion other stakes besides this one which thou hast appointed, that the gathering of thy people may roll on in great power and majesty, that thy work may be cut short in righteousness.

60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.

61 But thou knowest that thou hast a great love for the children of Jacob, who have been scattered upon the mountains for a long time, in a cloudy and dark day.

62 We therefore ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob, that Jerusalem, from this hour, may begin to be redeemed;

Great topic, btw!

[Magen_Avot]

Thought better of my post, but I need to dig some.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Magen_Avot

[ElectofGod]

This is an important thing to understand. Whenever the book of mormon speaks of the gentiles it speaks of US, today. The ones who HAVE the gospel, the book of mormon.

Cross references are posted below from lds.org

1 Nephi 13:42

42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

Now its interesting to note, that we are not the house of israel, but it still applies to all still. What is said about the house of Israel applies tot he gentiles and vice versa. Such as Ezekial is a type of us and the LDS church like chapter 14.

2 Nephi 6:5

5 And now, the words which I shall read are they which Isaiah spake concerning all the house of Israel; wherefore, they may be likened unto you, for ye are of the house of Israel. And there are many things which have been spoken by Isaiah which may be likened unto you, because ye are of the house of Israel.

1 Nephi 15:12

12 Behold, I say unto you, that the house of Israel was compared unto an olive tree, by the Spirit of the Lord which was in our father; and behold are we not broken off from the house of Israel, and are we not a branch of the house of Israel?

These two in particular show the consequences for all is the same.

3 Nephi 10:5

5 And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.

[AFTER the book of mormon is being preached]

3 Nephi 16:12

12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

2 Nephi 28:2

2 And the things which shall be written out of the book shall be of great worth unto the children of men, and especially unto our seed, which is a remnant of the house of Israel.

3 Nephi 23:2

2 For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.

[skalenfehl]

This is an important thing to understand. Whenever the book of mormon speaks of the gentiles it speaks of US, today. The ones who HAVE the gospel, the book of mormon.

That is correct.

[gtg166v]

That has really disconcerting implications, though i don't disagree with what has been said above.

Hugh Nibley once said (of the BOM), "Wo unto the people who understand this book."

[gtg166v]

Sorry, I got the quote wrong:

"Woe unto the generation that understands the Book of Mormon."

[skalenfehl]

Sorry, I got the quote wrong:

"Woe unto the generation that understands the Book of Mormon."

Without knowing the context of that quote, I can understand why.

22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

The times of the Gentiles in nearly fulfilled. The US is nearly rotten to the core. Then the desolating scourge and the day of wrath and burning prophecied of in the D&C will happen.

[estradling75]

That has really disconcerting implications, though i don't disagree with what has been said above.

Why do you consider that disconcerting?

The Book of Mormon clearly teaches that bloodlines are at best a secondary concern to the Lord. It teaches that a person willingness to follow Christ (aka personal righteousness) is the singular most important attribute. And that if we have that, no blessing will be denied.

So while Israel has the right to claim the blessings given to Abraham they can't do so absent the personal righteousness required. Whereas those outside the linage can claim those blessings by obeying the commandments of God.

See JST, Matthew 3  and the parable of olive tree.

So while the time of the gentiles can be very much at an end... Israel is only going to be those that obey the commandments of God. Even if God has to 'raise us up from the stones' or 'graft us in.' to do so.

The only reason I can see for it to be disconcerting is if we are depending on our linage or our membership in the church to be what saves us or some other thing and therefore neglect the things of God.

[Speakzeasy]

estradling75

So while Israel has the right to claim the blessings given to Abraham

So if the ElectofGod is correct (and I believe is):

ElectofGod

Whenever the book of mormon speaks of the gentiles it speaks of US, today. The ones who HAVE the gospel, the book of mormon.

Then whom do you suppose the represents the house of Israel in this day?

My guess is that you want to point at Joseph Smith and repeat his ideas.

So how it the Church of Jesus Christ as the means by which the Gentiles receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and still claim to be of the house of Israel? Or rather gathering the house of Israel?

The Gentiles and the house of Israel cannot be one and the same. They must be separate. They are even called by separate names.

As scriptural reference: take a look at the Book of Mormon claim to whom the Gentiles will be associated with when the house of Israel is gathered:

And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land (1 Nephi 14:2).

That is that they will be numbered with tribe of Manasseh. Because Nephi's father, Lehi, is a descendant of Manasseh.

And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren (Alma 10:3).

So why is that the Gentiles that received the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not being adopted into the tribe of Manasseh? Manasseh is of the house of Israel. To read the Book of Mormon the Gentiles receive an inheritance with the tribe of Manasseh. The house of Israel does not spread the Gospel among the Gentile Nations, the Gentiles do.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Dravin]

The Gentiles and the house of Israel cannot be one and the same. They must be separate. They are even called by separate names.

I am a husband. I am a brother. I am a son. Now how can different names refer to the same thing? Perspective.

[Speakzeasy]

Dravin

I am a husband. I am a brother. I am a son. Now how can different names refer to the same thing? Perspective

If you negate (make ineffective) the story then you will never understand it.

[estradling75]

estradling75

So if the ElectofGod is correct (and I believe is):

ElectofGod

Then whom do you suppose the represents the house of Israel in this day?

My guess is that you want to point at Joseph Smith and repeat his ideas.

So how it the Church of Jesus Christ as the means by which the Gentiles receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and still claim to be of the house of Israel? Or rather gathering the house of Israel?

The Gentiles and the house of Israel cannot be one and the same. They must be separate. They are even called by separate names.

As scriptural reference: take a look at the Book of Mormon claim to whom the Gentiles will be associated with when the house of Israel is gathered:

And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land (1 Nephi 14:2).

That is that they will be numbered with tribe of Manasseh. Because Nephi's father, Lehi, is a descendant of Manasseh.

And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren (Alma 10:3).

So why is that the Gentiles that received the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not being adopted into the tribe of Manasseh? Manasseh is of the house of Israel. To read the Book of Mormon the Gentiles receive an inheritance with the tribe of Manasseh. The house of Israel does not spread the Gospel among the Gentile Nations, the Gentiles do.

Why do I have to understand how God is going to do it to have faith that God will fulfill all his words?

Why should I panic or be worried that God will fulfill all his words?

The Lord expects me to develop and exercise faith and to be obedient to his commands to the best of my ability. Everything else is in his hands and at his will.

This is what Joseph Smith and all the other prophets have taught me. This is what I have learned from the scriptures... Everything else from the fall of the Gentiles to the burning of the world is just window dressing. The background to the Lord perfecting his work.

[Speakzeasy]

Can anyone give time period in which the Gentiles who received the fullness of the Gospel will be adopted into the house of Israel through the tribe of Manasseh? (See 1 Nephi 14:2 and Alma 10:3) It is still future.

Somehow, the Gentiles that received the fullness Gospel of Jesus Christ on behalf of the Gentiles believes that they are gathering the house of Israel or "spiritual" house of Israel. But they are not being brought into the house of Israel through the tribe Manasseh. What is wrong with the story?

The period for the Gentiles to receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is correct. I will stand by that Joseph Smith, Jr. brought forth the Book of Mormon by inspiration of God.

The time period has one more than event that is being missed. You will need to see this for yourselves. I can point the way. However, you must see it for yourselves.

When trying to negate the prophecies in scripture we dismiss their purpose. All prophecy belongs to specific events. They move through time - the history of man. And they are given to us with purpose. We must understand that history nor our own ideas, or those of somebody else, cannot be forced on to prophecy and make them apply. Prophecy must be applied to history. Making the story in prophecy more relevant.

We cannot negate the stories in prophecy, in anyway, or they will never be understood. They must be applied as they are written. We cannot twist them to mean what we what them to mean.

Read the prophecy in the Bible and Book of Mormon. They are written by different people, however, they are applied to the same time period (from the time of Jesus Christ (the Roman Empire) until now, the exception is Dan. 8:3-4, which is one empire earlier). The visions in the Book of Daniel (chapters 2, 7, 9, 8, 11-12) are the same empires (without noted exception) that are given to us in the vision of 1 Nephi in chapters 11-14. The end of the visions in Daniel overlap the second vision in the Book of Revelation (compare Rev. 1:10 and Rev. 4:1-2) and the end of Nephi's vision.

The Book Revelation picks up from the end of Nephi's vision starting with chapter 14. Nephi is correct. He did not make a mistake.

The Book of Revelation actually starts its story a bit earlier then the end of Nephi's vision. It also has several beginning points in the story starting from chapter four.

I know that the Book of Mormon is true through understanding Bible prophecy. Nephite prophecy, without the bible references in the Book of Mormon, is consistent with Bible prophecy. They cover the same time period and the same empires. The events during the time period are a variation of the same story in all the vision in both books (Bible and Book of Mormon).

Read them in this way and pray that God will help you understand. Please do not negate the story in prophecy. And please do not think that some how prophecy can be applied to any time that we think appears to have something in common with prophecy, this is called layering. And remember you must apply the prophecies to history, not the other way around.

Last, and not least, read the Bible and Book of Mormon prophecies on their own merit. Do not allow any outside influence (except prayer) to be brought in for information to some how "help" understand prophecy in either the Bible or Book of Mormon. The prophecies in both books can stand on their own without any outside help.

Prophecy must bring together all the elements of a specific time period or prophecy can not applied.

P.S. I'm going to mention that Nephi does cover what we now know as the American Continent and the civilization and population on it, the others do not. However, his does pickup with the same empires that Daniel speaks of in his visions. Nephi does not distinguish between the Christian Roman Empire and the British Empire as Daniel makes them separate. However, if you follow the story it is all there. Simply apply prophecy to history.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Speakzeasy]

Why do I have to understand how God is going to do it to have faith that God will fulfill all his words?

Why should I panic or be worried that God will fulfill all his words?

The Lord expects me to develop and exercise faith and to be obedient to his commands to the best of my ability. Everything else is in his hands and at his will.

This is what Joseph Smith and all the other prophets have taught me. This is what I have learned from the scriptures... Everything else from the fall of the Gentiles to the burning of the world is just window dressing. The background to the Lord perfecting his work.

Quite frankly, God is about to gather the remnant of Israel. Listen for that still small voice that will call the house of Israel from the time that God establishes Zion.

Is that bold statement? Think about it. The time is at hand. Are we prepared?

And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: (Isaiah 5:26).

The ensign spoken of is Zion. Ensign here means Any signal to assemble or to give notice (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

[Dravin]

Dravin

If you negate (make ineffective) the story then you will never understand it.

Trust me, I understand the story just fine.

[Speakzeasy]

Trust me, I understand the story just fine.

So what story is it that you think you understand just fine?

I am a husband. I am a brother. I am a son. Now how can different names refer to the same thing? Perspective.

If the above quote is understanding? Tell me how negating a subject is understanding and not confusion? You have not got a focus on the subject. You are simply trying to argue about the subject. I think that is counter productive.

That shows a lack of knowledge about the information.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Dravin]

So what story is it that you think you understand just fine?

The Book of Mormon.

If the above quote is understanding?

Yes, it is an understanding of language, words, and perspective.

Tell me how negating a subject is understanding and not confusion?

What on earth does that even mean? The subject is Israel, pointing out that people can have different perspectives when they use the term is not negating a subject. The subject still exists I assure you.

That shows a lack of knowledge about the information.

Have fun tilting at windmills Don.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Dravin

[skalenfehl]

Yes, Joseph Smith (a Gentile among gentiles) restored the fullness of the gospel and brought to light the fullness of the gospel (BoM). The Gentiles and the House of Israel are separate nations. Heck, the house of Israel itself consists of twelve nations. But as Jacob 5 and other scriptures (even Isaiah, whom I believe was very familiar with Zenos' allegory) reveal, all who repent and come unto Christ are the covenant people of the Lord. So Joseph Smith became a covenant Gentile.

Genesis 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough...there are promises given to Joseph that have been and are being fulfilled through Ephraim and Mannaseh, but more specifically through the Lamanites because of another promise made to Lehi, Nephi, Jacob and Enos because of the faith of their prayers. Nephi saw all of this. The Gentiles became nursing fathers and nursing mothers to the Lamanites. I think most members might consider the British to be said nursing mothers/fathers, kings/queens. But the American Continent was populated by three groups of Gentiles: English, Spanish and French.

Nephi saw in vision a man wrought upon by the Spirit, which we may infer was Columbus. Since his discovery, the Spaniards, while conquerers, did not conquer to annihilate, but to integrate and to convert. From the 1500s through the next couple centuries, they integrated and intermarried with the natives, who at the time were the Incas, Aztecs, etc. The Aztec Empire, Tenochtitlan, was and is Mexico. Spain brought Christianity, as Nephi prophecied they would, and became nursing mothers and fathers, whereas, the British, through their supposed Manifest Destiny, saw the natives as expendable refuse to be discarded as an obstacle to their goals of ownership and gain. They did not, for the most part integrate with the natives as the Spaniards did, though some did become nursing mothers and fathers.

But ultimately, it was necessary for the gentiles to introduce Christianity to the natives, who already had in their legends, corrupt traditions that pointed to a God and His return. By the time Joseph Smith entered the picture a couple centuries later, America (the entire continent) would become primed (barely!) for further light and knowledge. This is the way the Lord works and the only way it could work as Zenos taught through his allegory of the tame and wild olive trees and the necessity to break off branches, transplant them and graft them back into the mother tree in time for one final harvest before the end of the season.

The LDS began as the Gentile Church. It has become much more complex, but it is as it should be. New Jerusalem will be built by Joseph and Old Jerusalem will once again be hallowed for Judah. The two (like the two sticks of Joseph and Judah) will run together as Zion is built and it's borders continually lengthened. It won't be a picnic, though. I suspect that those who are now "hearing" the call will experience their trials necessary to be worthy of building Zion just as the Israelites needed to be refined when crossing the wilderness, just as Nephi and company needed to be refined while crossing the wilderness, just as Brigham Young (though it should have been Joseph Smith had the saints not considered him a coward and called on him to surrender when he was heading west with his brother) and the early saints needed to be refined when crossing the wilderness, and just as we (let he that hath ears hear) will be refined when crossing the wilderness, after the day of wrath, to build Zion. It has always been this way. We must all, as the Savior did, cross our own valley of the shadow of death and be refined.

[Speakzeasy]

Yes, Joseph Smith (a Gentile among gentiles).

Yes, maybe. I will not give up my testimony of the Book of Mormon and that it has a place in relationship to the covenants made to father Abraham and the house of Israel.

However, the generalities that we are told about prophecy is just that, generalities. The post you provided is a good example of how we see prophecy in generalities. (You provide specifics in a general way. How can the story you present be applied to prophecy in the Bible and Book of Mormon? Giving a detailed chronology from the beginning starting with the Book of Daniel.) In part you are saying - What do we need to know the details for? I agree. If we are not into learning the word of God then you or myself, nor anyone else have no need to understand the information in any specific detail. What for, God provided it to us for no reason. Without purpose. Sounds like an intelligent God to me. After all he, of all people, knows that we can return to him with partial information. We can be casual about our understanding and our seeking and finding out about God words to us.

I have noticed that people will attempt to understand the story in prophecy by coming up with a grouping of what they (think) believe are possible answers to the information provided in prophecy out of frustration or their own reasoning. Not out of knowledge or understanding. Those of us who leave an understanding of prophecy to other people are always referring back to those people. I am not sure why we do not turn to God who is the source of the information he provides. All of us have access to the Bible and Book of Mormon.

The problem with not knowing is that in tends to provide a lack of understanding. There is a reason and a purpose in knowing the prophecies and the events that are in them and what they represent and how those events come together. The prophecies provide a road map of Gods dealing man. They are not a grouping of thoughts that are randomly put together to fit a story for the convince of mans understanding. They are full of purpose and meaning.

My faith is absolute in the understanding that God will fulfill his covenants to the house of Israel. I have a good knowledge of what those covenants are and I am watching with eagerness for their fulfillment. Yes, I am watching their fulfillment. Well, they happen one at a time, so I am watching for the next thing to transpire so the next event (covenant) can be fulfilled. I have watched many events take place that move us closer to the fulfilling of the covenant God made to the remnant of Israel. How can that be? Think about it.

I am secure with my relationship with God, my future, and with the direction my life heading. He as helped me understand why things are the way they are. Not mans understanding, but through prophecies and other accumulated knowledge from my lives experiences. My testimony is from God. Not because of religion or what I was told by any man about something that man thought I should believe. My testimony is not of any institution. Nobody has influenced my testimony here upon the earth. The Bible and Book of Mormon are part of the a bigger picture of a story that is beyond me to influence and that bigger story is a part of my testimony. The Bible and Book of Mormon part of the story is the influence they have had on man because of what man believes he understands of their continent (note the Book of Mormon is recent).

The story of man starts in what is understood by the members of the L.D.S. Church as the Council in Heaven. Starting from that point everything becomes a part of a greater whole.

The social attitudes, the worlds ideas, anything that is imposed on man for the benefit of any group, is just that, to the benefit of the group (reminds me of Amos 3:3). We live in the world. To understand prophecy we must seek that which God has to offer and detach from the world and its societies. We remain very attached to our societies and their wants, desires and beliefs. We believe that as long as we place a value in their understanding of God (even non-believers) that we are secure. I suppose it works for man. Will it work for God? Prophecies will teach many things to man. A greater understanding of the world around us will evolve from understanding prophecy.

The story of the history of man shows that men have, for the most part, ignored the continents of scripture. Men have used scripture to their own advantage. There by abusing scripture for mans own purposes.

So, if people believe that being a people with spiritual attributes and somehow turn our personal responsibilities over to another person is all we really need to do, then do not let me upset the majority belief. I mean really, I am only one person. I am of no significance to anyone in this world. Why listen to me.

One of the scriptures that is quoted often among the L.D.S. membership is Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." The Bible and Book of Mormon are written by prophets that are of the house of Israel. The remnant of Israel are the people whom Gods prophecies in the Bible and Book of Mormon are directed at and they are written for their benefit. So why is it that the prophecies from the Bible and Book of Mormon validate one another? The real question is: How is it that the prophecies in the Bible and Book of Mormon validate each other?

Edited August 14, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[skalenfehl]

If I wrote more specifically, it would turn into a book, which, by the way is what I'm working on (By the time I'm done, if I ever get done, I will have written four). In any case, they are perfectly applicable and in harmony to the Bible and the BoM and the D&C, which I have studied intently for over twenty years now. I am fully aware of the covenants made to Abraham and also to Jacob and also more specifically to Joseph who was sold into Egypt and also to Lehi.

I know that our Savior will fulfill each and every covenant made to man. Yes, I wrote somewhat generally, but left it as a springboard for anyone who might want to pursue it with their own research. I appreciate your passion and your testimony, your enlightenment and your relationship with the Lord. Keep fighting the good fight!

[Speakzeasy]

If I wrote more specifically, it would turn into a book

That I can appreciate. If you are able to finish your book, I would like read it.

Our time frame is short. The next event that effectively fulfills one (the second of two) of the covenants in, what we call, the last days is upon us. It does not look pretty for anyone. God is truly an awesome God and he is about to bring the world to its economic knees. I am watching the economies the world be set up for the next event.

There are two (three) other things that I am watching. Namely the Israel, Palestinian peace talks and Arab Peace Initiative (Ezekiel 38:11 "dwell safely" meaning 'to be in agreement'). The Iranian Nuclear Talks (Ezekiel 38:11 "at rest" meaning 'national quiet'). Egypt, Syria are peripheral subjects of interest (not part of Ezekiel's prophecy in chapter 38 or any prophecy). The economies the world are inline with Revelation chapter 18. It is the event after the peace arrangement between the Israeli's and Arabs that I am looking forward to. Many reasons are related to my eagerness for this event to happen.

As an edit to the original post and for completeness of what is being watched in Ezekiel chapter 38: Ezekiel 38:8-9 are speaking about Iraq. The end of verse 8 states that they will dwell safely. I'm am watching for the Shia, Kurds and Sunni to come together and be in agreement within the Government of Iraq. The things listed in these two paragraphs should occur before the the next event which is one of the covenants to the remnant of Israel.[end edit]

There much more to the story then the list above. I also have personal interest in the events that have happen, are happening and about to happen. There is no way to explain everything. Though given time I could relate more.

A true interpretation of Prophecy, in my point of view, is one that points to history in the past and applies prophecy to those events, as understood in prophecy not history, bring them into the present on the same timeline and points to the future with complete unbroken chronological order. The characters of the prophecies must be identified with consistency of the time periods and empires taken into account. It must be consistent with an understanding of the Bible and Book of Mormon prophecies.

I do not know how closely we are aligned in understanding prophecy. It could be very interesting to hear further about where your understanding on the subject has taken you.

I will admit up front that my understanding of prophecy began with information related to our present day. So, fundamentally I started my research from the present, backwards and then forward. Outside of the Bible and Book of Mormon I used no third party religious references. The Bible and Book of Mormon stand on there own merit in telling the story of prophecy. I had no reason to turn to any other (third party) source to follow the scriptural path of history as told in both books. My understanding has purpose and meaning beyond my reach of influence. It will bring me to my purpose in life, which is also beyond my reach of influence, nor do I desire to act contrary. I look forward to the moment at hand.

I know that all the characters that are involved in the last day prophecy are alive. I understand who both people are that we call anti-Christ. I understand a little bit about the establishment of Zion. Time is short.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[skalenfehl]

Thank you. In as far as how our understanding of prophecy is in alignment, I can only confess that my focus is primarily on prophecies concerning the Lamanites in the last days, the times of the gentiles, and the events leading up to the building of New Jerusalem.

D&C 49:24 But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose.

I think that there is definitely some crossover in our individual studies and research. I will let you know as soon as my book is available. If I'm lucky, it will be ready within the next year. I will either make it available through Amazon.com (self publish) or as a pdf. Either way, I don't plan on making any profit and would rather it be available freely to anyone interested. If it is published for purchase, all money earned will go directly to the church missionary fund. I don't care to make any money from my books.