Women and dating

[Lakumi]

rotflmfao

You sound like a fun date. Hope you have fun "hanging out"

I enjoy solitude and the simple serene silence in the outskirts.

I dated in my earlier 20s and got real tired real quick.

I don't hang out either, at this point in my life, I just want people to leave me alone, and they usually do

[Praetorian_Brow]

I believe genders are not equal, but they are complimentary, that being said, the woman I seem to meet are quick to point out their expectations, quick to point out any deviations, but offer zero investment of their own because in their mind, they are making the bigger sacrifice or taking the larger risk. Please.

I don't object to fair and just treatment and understand a woman's lot in life is different, what I object to is the hypocrisy of expecting males to bend to female expectation and then the woman blaming the man for somehow failing them, while claiming that the man is not a man because they pretend to know what a man is. Even worse is that men are expected to be these manly characters of yesteryear, but how can they be when most of their fathers were neutered after their parents were divorced. Plus, the man is supposed to be this sensitive thoughtful person, who has the time to listen to the woman speak about everything, which is exhausting, but they expect the man to listen like a woman.

Best not to date at all, considering she will most likely wage social war if her whims are not satisfied. Then again, I guess I am still single for a reason. Meh, at least I am a unique snowflake of stunning model looks.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Praetorian_Brow

[audreyII]

I guess, here's the thing with me - as a single 26 year old woman. Generally speaking -

As I have mentioned, our stake has been counseled for women to not ask out men. The Stake president saw that men were "getting lazy" in the dating department, and women beginning to take the initiative was perpetuating that problem.

Some may claim that is his personal opinion. Yes, this is. But he also has the keys to guide our stake. Also, his opinion does not come out of nowhere. It is the message sent by the brethren - now and in the past, that it is the man that is supposed to pursue. They always "feel sorry" for the women, and tell them to have faith, and that all promises will be fulfilled in the eternities, and they address the single men with a "get a move on it" attitude. Does that mean it is a "sin" for a woman to occasionally take the lead and be a little more direct sometimes? (especially since that appears to be necessary because some our dense, at least it has been established that way.) No. Is she responsible for clearly expressing interest or politely and directly declining if she is not interested?

So - this is the counsel I am listening to. This is the attitude I am interpreting from my priesthood leaders on multiple levels. I suppose that not everyone would interpret things in this way. I think it is pretty clear, but some may disagree. That's okay. However, I guess if I came across a man who disregarded this counsel and general attitude or perhaps interpreted it differently, I don't think we would be a good match necessarily anyway. So...if they're not into asking me out, paying for the date, eventually courting me, etc. I'm not interested in him. So...fair enough, I guess.

Here are some examples of the things I'm thinking of when I talk about the attitudes of the brethren on this subject.

Dating: “He Says,†“She Says†- Ensign June 2006 - ensign

The Eternal Blessings of Marriage - general-conference

Both of these are relatively "recent", if that matters.

[Praetorian_Brow]

If you want a date, I wouldn't depend on a stake president's input to get said date. Men don't heed advice from leaders the same as women seem to do and in this case, the direction has good intentions, but its much the same as a meddlesome Branch President matchmaking.

I have the opinion that not everything a leader says is gospel or revelation, some of it is their life experience and opinion on life being passed to those young whippersnappers that are of a lazy generation.

I know its hypocritical to say this, as I am single, but if you want life to happen, you're going to have to do something about it, not remain passive.

[Quin]

Here's a middle ground:

If you don't want to ask him out on a date... Invite him to come to a

- group thing (a bunch of us are going to xyz on Tuesday, wanna come?)

- a not-date. Meaning before 2pm, costs less than $5, lasts for 20 minutes. Aka ice cream. Or hot chocolate.

The first is risky, if you want to avoid telling hmi you like him. Because a lot of us outgoing sorts invite all sorts of people to all sorts of things. So there isn't the automatic assumption that you find him reasonably decent to delicious.

A tetė téte, on the other hand, definitely tells him you'd like to at LEAST pursue a friendship... And lobs the ball into his court. If he wants to ask you out, he will.

* Men are notoriously clueless. I've literally had (non-lds) guy friends think the naked girl who crawled into bed with them had just been in the wrong hotel room (military often has multihotel room parties). so they'd gotten up, dressed, and crashed with a buddy in another room. Anything LESS than "I like you. Want to go on a date?" can be misconstrued. As friendship, pity, obligation, confusion, etc.

My PERSONAL recommendation is to tell him, straight up, that you like him.

Q

[audreyII]

If you want a date, I wouldn't depend on a stake president's input to get said date. Men don't heed advice from leaders the same as women seem to do and in this case, the direction has good intentions, but its much the same as a meddlesome Branch President matchmaking.

I have the opinion that not everything a leader says is gospel or revelation, some of it is their life experience and opinion on life being passed to those young whippersnappers that are of a lazy generation.

I know its hypocritical to say this, as I am single, but if you want life to happen, you're going to have to do something about it, not remain passive.

I quite frankly don't want a man that I can't trust to follow counsel of our priesthood leaders. (And in this case, I don't think a Stake president would give "bad advice" over the pulpit in a Stake meeting. That is my personal opinion.) I need to have a man that I can trust to do the Lord's will, follow our priesthood leader's counsel and will lead our family well. Maybe this is "insignificant" counsel, but if He can't do THAT, when will he start listening and acting? I owe it to myself and my future children to make sure that I wisely select whom I want to be the patriarch of my family. I would rather wait until the next life to get a husband than to select one I can't trust to do the basic things and get married just to get married. Maybe that's "picky", and of course no one is perfect, but to me, this is so basic. Assuming I am being direct with him with my intentions (even if in some cases it requires saying "I would love to go out with you sometime"), he needs to pick up the ball and run with it at that point. If I am that direct and guarantee him a "yes" and he doesn't ask me out, to me it means one of two things. 1) He's just not interested or 2) he doesn't listen to me. Yes, some men are denser than others, but if I am that direct of "I would love to go out with you sometime" and he doesn't get THAT, this is a sign of many future communication problems to come. I already foresee marriage counseling with that. (Being 26, I will only date someone when there is a potential for marriage. I am willing to date until there is something that lets me know he is not the right one. If we can't start with good basic communication, that is my sign he's not the one for me. Even if some women wouldn't have a problem with that, it would bug me to no end.)

I agree, I need to learn how to be "outgoing" in the area of dating. I need to do a better job of letting intentions be known - and that includes politely but directly letting him know that I'm not interested if that is ever the case. That does not mean, however, that I need to do the asking. In other areas of my life, I am not passive at all. I am a very ambitious person that has plans and goals, but just needs some practice in effectively figuring out my role in the dating process.

Oh, and I could I have forgotten this?

Dating versus Hanging Out - Ensign June 2006 - ensign

"Men, if you have returned from your mission and you are still following the boy-girl patterns you were counseled to follow when you were 15, it is time for you to grow up. Gather your courage and look for someone to pair off with. Start with a variety of dates with a variety of young women, and when that phase yields a good prospect, proceed to courtship. It’s marriage time. That is what the Lord intends for His young adult sons and daughters. Men have the initiative, and you men should get on with it. If you don’t know what a date is, perhaps this definition will help. I heard it from my 18-year-old granddaughter. A “date” must pass the test of three p’s: (1) planned ahead, (2) paid for, and (3) paired off.

Young women, resist too much hanging out, and encourage dates that are simple, inexpensive, and frequent. Don’t make it easy for young men to hang out in a setting where you women provide the food. Don’t subsidize freeloaders. An occasional group activity is OK, but when you see men who make hanging out their primary interaction with the opposite sex, I think you should lock the pantry and bolt the front door."

That is from Dallin H. Oaks. This is very direct, like I need to be, when I am interested in someone.

[Dravin]

(especially since that appears to be necessary because some our dense, at least it has been established that way.)

The whole directness verses hinting thing is less about people being dense and more about hinting being an error prone method of communication. Pretty much by definition if you are hinting then you aren't being clear. This is fine if it isn't too big of a deal that the message gets dropped between sending and receiving, or if you have an established relationship (not necessarily romantic, I'm speaking in general terms here) where you understand the person well enough to be confident the message was received*.

Note I'm specifically talking about directness versus hinting, not asking out verses being asked out or pursuing versus being pursued. That is a separate thing from direct versus hinting. I'm basically just disagreeing with the characterization that hinting not working very well is because one of the parties involved is dense.

*The if is important here, I'm married and the hints of my wife don't always make it through. She's good though about switching to clearer channels of communication when she realizes it hasn't gotten through. Likewise I do my best to switch tacks when I realize I'm not getting through (though in my case it is less about hinting and more about being clearer about antecedents and the like).

1) He's just not interested or 2) he doesn't listen to me. Yes, some men are denser than others, but if I am that direct of "I would love to go out with you sometime" and he doesn't get THAT, this is a sign of many future communication problems to come.

I daresay if he doesn't get, "I would love to go out with you sometime." as an indication that you'd like to go out with him sometime then him not pursuing you is probably a bit of a blessing. As you point out it means he's not interested, or he has a serious communication handicap (which would be challenge to any relationship).

Edited August 14, 2013 by Dravin

[audreyII]

The whole directness verses hinting thing is less about people being dense and more about hinting being an error prone method of communication. Pretty much by definition if you are hinting then you aren't being clear. This is fine if it isn't too big of a deal that the message gets dropped between sending and receiving, or if you have an established relationship (not necessarily romantic, I'm speaking in general terms here) where you understand the person well enough to be confident the message was received*.

...

*The if is important here, I'm married and the hints of my wife don't always make it through. She's good though about switching to clearer channels of communication when she realizes it hasn't gotten through. Likewise I do my best to switch tacks when I realize I'm not getting through (though in my case it is less about hinting and more about being clearer about antecedents and the like).

Well said.

And because of you all collectively, I am better learning that twirling my hair, smiling at a guy and talking to him, etc. etc. probably won't get me a date in many circumstances. I really like knowing that I have the power and ability to communicate interest, and still stay off what is to me the not good territory of being the asker-outer, and not the askee. Some may disagree, and that's fine, but that is what is best for me.

[Lakumi]

I donno, if the present "waiting around for the man to ask" isn't working, what exactly makes you think it will work in the future-other then asking a stake president (who while I would assume mean well, the age gap might make advice a little I guess outdated, my parents have trouble giving me advice)

You can't rely on books and what not for something like that because people think differently from one another, personalities clash. Its not as simple as "we both are LDS" or something.

[audreyII]

I donno, if the present "waiting around for the man to ask" isn't working, what exactly makes you think it will work in the future-other then asking a stake president (who while I would assume mean well, the age gap might make advice a little I guess outdated, my parents have trouble giving me advice)

You can't rely on books and what not for something like that because people think differently from one another, personalities clash. Its not as simple as "we both are LDS" or something.

"Waiting around" hasn't worked - this is true, but as it has been pointed out, there is a difference between me directly letting him know I am interested and then waiting for the date and me just trying to send mental waves through ESP or indirect flirting that may be missed entirely or misinterpreted. My approach does need an overall change, and I will practice with this current interest of mine, but that still doesn't mean I should ask him out.

But forget about the Stake president second. The general authorities are of the same opinion - men are the ones to do the pursuing/courting. (see links I posted)

Oh, and "age gap" and priesthood counsel is irrelevant in my opinion.

Are we supposed to say to a priesthood leader's counsel of listen to good uplifting music, watch and listen to quality music and television that invites the spirit, dress modestly, etc. etc. "oh, well you don't understand. In today's world, that's really hard, and almost impossible. You don't understand what it is like to be our age today." and then ignore it? No, you don't. (Or I should say, I don't.)

Besides, I don't want to be married to a man that goes to Stake Conference and selectively hears counsel and dismisses some/all of it as well-meaning, but irrelevant and out of touch advice. I wold rather be single.

For the record, I have several friends who are married and *ALL* of them waited to be asked out by the man. One of them without even thinking about what she was saying (although it was true and was the message she was trying to convey) was complaining that guys aren't asking girls out enough, and she wants to be asked out on dates. He took the hint she wasn't even consciously trying to send and asked her out. She of course accepted the invitation that was then extended, and they are, like I said, married now. So it *is* possible to express interest, express feelings about wanting to be asked out, but still not actually *ask* him out, and still get married. Even "today".

[Lakumi]

There is some advice I would "dismiss", as of now, if I saw them (anything about family really, since I don't have a wife and kids nor do I think I will-and yes I have parents but its not a religious home so, again I don't know how much advice from a church, would apply to me) its not bad, not everything they will say will effect your life. That's life, everyone's is different.

But I am getting off topic, yes the culture as a whole says men should do the work, but in our crazy world where men are more nervous then ever and women are unrealistic, its no wonder there are more single people. All my female friends back home are single and they are your age.

Now a days, its harder then ever to simply get someone to go out with you, I don't know how many really harsh rejections I have gotten in my life, because since I didn't fit their ideal, I was lower then dirt.

I've heard and seen it happen to many people, but maybe its different with LDS people, in a large chunk of people dating it has a different idea on where it will go (I have never dated thinking, will I marry her, no it was will I sleep with her).

So there you go

[audreyII]

There is some advice I would "dismiss", as of now, if I saw them (anything about family really, since I don't have a wife and kids nor do I think I will-and yes I have parents but its not a religious home so, again I don't know how much advice from a church, would apply to me) its not bad, not everything they will say will effect your life. That's life, everyone's is different.

But I am getting off topic, yes the culture as a whole says men should do the work, but in our crazy world where men are more nervous then ever and women are unrealistic, its no wonder there are more single people. All my female friends back home are single and they are your age.

Now a days, its harder then ever to simply get someone to go out with you, I don't know how many really harsh rejections I have gotten in my life, because since I didn't fit their ideal, I was lower then dirt.

I've heard and seen it happen to many people, but maybe its different with LDS people, in a large chunk of people dating it has a different idea on where it will go (I have never dated thinking, will I marry her, no it was will I sleep with her).

So there you go

Where you're coming from makes more sense now. Yes, in the LDS church, as adults, we are instructed to date for marriage and look for a companion to be married to in one of our temples for time and all eternity. We believe families are eternal and getting married and having children when possible is one of the most important things to do in this life here on earth. (Those who don't get married on earth, will have the opportunity to get married in the after-life.) As teenagers (16 or older, as we are told not to date before then) dating is to be less serious, and just a fun "get to know you" kind of thing, often times suggested to be in a group-dating kind of way. The problem that priesthood leaders have seen in the Church is that young men still think they are teenagers when they approach dating. They just want to "hang out" with other people around, and are not "pairing off" trying to find an eternal companion. (And the problem is also that the women allow this to continue.)

So...while there may be some LDS single adult men (or women) who are dating not looking to get married, I would say based on our doctrine and counsel, the vast majority are - or should - at least be looking to get married. The ones that aren't looking to get married I'm not interested in anyway, so it's okay if they don't ask me out.

Oh, and we also believe that a Stake president not only has the ability, but the responsibility to give inspired counsel to members of his stake, especially at the Stake meetings he presides over twice a year. Although while I am currently in a stake made up of just singles, when I have been in stakes where there were married couples and families I took the counsel that was given, wrote it down, and tucked it away in my head to be referenced for when I am married and have a family.

[Lakumi]

I think some people know they aren't ready for marriage, some 24 year olds are, where I wouldn't be (If I met the right person I could see myself getting married but I never want to have children-that's a whole other topic though)

Jumping into something when you aren't ready is a recipe for disaster.

I know all about the Stake Presidents and Bishops (though I have met neither to my knowledge when I went to church) but I was speaking from my personal opinion, which as I have said before, my opinions can be strange and such, but you can't force someone to take advice to heart, or that they will comprehend it.

But that's me, and I do wonder if I'd measure up to doctrine and such of the church with all I think and such...

[audreyII]

I think some people know they aren't ready for marriage, some 24 year olds are, where I wouldn't be (If I met the right person I could see myself getting married but I never want to have children-that's a whole other topic though)

Jumping into something when you aren't ready is a recipe for disaster.

I know all about the Stake Presidents and Bishops (though I have met neither to my knowledge when I went to church) but I was speaking from my personal opinion, which as I have said before, my opinions can be strange and such, but you can't force someone to take advice to heart, or that they will comprehend it.

But that's me, and I do wonder if I'd measure up to doctrine and such of the church with all I think and such...

Of course you can't force advice on anyone, and that is no one's intention to do so. But, my point is that if a man doesn't view something like that in the same way I do, then I don't think he would be a good fit for me as a marriage partner.

And off course you are welcome to church anytime, but our goal, however imperfect we may be, is learn the commandments and follow them, and learning how to align our will with God's. I'm by no means perfect at this, but I do my best, and I am getting better with time. Everyone is at a different point, of course, too. It takes time. All that is required is a willing heart to try to get better, even if we do stumble from time to time. (or a lot!)

[Lakumi]

Of course you can't force advice on anyone, and that is no one's intention to do so. But, my point is that if a man doesn't view something like that in the same way I do, then I don't think he would be a good fit for me as a marriage partner.

And off course you are welcome to church anytime, but our goal, however imperfect we may be, is learn the commandments and follow them, and learning how to align our will with God's. I'm by no means perfect at this, but I do my best, and I am getting better with time. Everyone is at a different point, of course, too. It takes time. All that is required is a willing heart to try to get better, even if we do stumble from time to time. (or a lot!)

I try to make it every week, my temp job has gotten in the way and so did sickness

but anyways I see your point

[audreyII]

I try to make it every week, my temp job has gotten in the way and so did sickness

but anyways I see your point

That's awesome. (not the getting sick and job getting in the way part)

And btw - regarding the fear of not measuring up to the doctrine...you can always grow. :)

The Church is full of imperfect people - every one of them in fact! This is not a church of "make yourself perfect" and then join, it's a church of "let's work on becoming better together."

But - I also understand if that is not your desire as well. Everyone is different, and everyone has a choice about how they want to live their life. We never want to force anything on anybody, because that is directly contrary to what we believe. :)

[Leah]

If you want a date, I wouldn't depend on a stake president's input to get said date. Men don't heed advice from leaders the same as women seem to do and in this case, the direction has good intentions, but its much the same as a meddlesome Branch President matchmaking.

I have the opinion that not everything a leader says is gospel or revelation, some of it is their life experience and opinion on life being passed to those young whippersnappers that are of a lazy generation.

I know its hypocritical to say this, as I am single, but if you want life to happen, you're going to have to do something about it, not remain passive.

Perhaps if some men heeded the advice of their leaders and those who have stewardship over them, they would not be so bitter and judgmental (and more successful in relationships) when it comes to women, dating and marriage.

[lagarthaaz]

Speaking as one who has been around the block and back a few times with the dating thing (albeit quite some years ago) - I have just one piece of advice.

I think most single LDS men are well aware that they are in the driver's seat when it comes to asking a woman out on a date. If he likes you, he will show interest in you.

If you approach him and say "hey thanks for laughing at my jokes!" and he doesn't make a move to talk more with you, then he's probably not interested.

Actually, I have another piece of advice. Don't ask him out unless you want to risk feeling a bit humiliated. A long time ago in a far-off land I had the hugest crush on a friend who I thought was my dream companion. We talked for hours on end about history, spirituality, politics, human rights, philosophy and ethics (he was finishing his phd in psychology), played chess, had dinner at each other's houses, went to concerts and on nature hikes, visited the beach - we had a lot of fun and laughs. So, sounds great doesn't it? I didn't want to have feelings for him because I really enjoyed our friendship and on some level wanted it to always be that innocent and uncomplicated. But I did develop feelings... so I asked others for advice and got the same as you have here...go tell him how you feel. What harm can it do? Bad idea in this case - he looked puzzled and then horrified! Then he made it better by giving me a hug as he said "what a woman, you are so beautiful" bid me goodnight and avoided me like the plague from that time forth. Ouch!!

I later found out he had just started dating another woman (who I thought was also just a 'friend' of his) and that our friendship was going to complicate things. When I told him I had more serious feelings, well that was the nail in the coffin - he couldn't tell her anymore that we were 'just friends'.

It was ok though, I mopped up my tears, cooled my embarrassed cheeks and moved on. Would I do the same thing again - no way :)

[Lakumi]

That's awesome. (not the getting sick and job getting in the way part)

And btw - regarding the fear of not measuring up to the doctrine...you can always grow. :)

The Church is full of imperfect people - every one of them in fact! This is not a church of "make yourself perfect" and then join, it's a church of "let's work on becoming better together."

But - I also understand if that is not your desire as well. Everyone is different, and everyone has a choice about how they want to live their life. We never want to force anything on anybody, because that is directly contrary to what we believe. :)

yes and while some of those habits and such I know are bad (such as my total need of caffeine in the form of soft drinks and some of the things I watch) other things I believe in the church doesn't have the same view as I do.

What do you do there...I do wonder if any interested others have the same thoughts.

[audreyII]

yes and while some of those habits and such I know are bad (such as my total need of caffeine in the form of soft drinks and some of the things I watch) other things I believe in the church doesn't have the same view as I do.

What do you do there...I do wonder if any interested others have the same thoughts.

I know you have heard from me about 50,000 times, but my advice would be to sincerely read the Book of Mormon - cover to cover - and sincerely pray about it, and pray to know if the Church is true. I am a convert of over 8 years, and I did the same. I prayed about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and I know that it is true. Because of this knowledge, I have been willing to follow counsel that hasn't been "easy" or may not be the most pleasant or fun. By following the counsel, however, I have also found the counsel to be true and have received blessings by doing it. The only way you can know this however is by you doing it, and not anyone else.

So....that's my 2 cents.

[beefche]

It was ok though, I mopped up my tears, cooled my embarrassed cheeks and moved on. Would I do the same thing again - no way :)

I did that twice (or similar to such). And I would do it again. My thoughts are that men do not communicate the same as women. So, I would rather be honest with someone and know exactly how he feels than risk guessing and hoping and playing that game.

Yes, it is embarrassing. But both times, the men were very kind to me in expressing their lack of interest in me romantically. I am sure they were embarrassed too. But, at least we all knew where we stood and we could move on. BTW, I still consider them friends, although our relationship took a decided and appropriate cooling off. That level of friendship with someone who is dating/married to another isn't appropriate (in my opinion).

[Dravin]

Actually, I have another piece of advice. Don't ask him out unless you want to risk feeling a bit humiliated.

It should be noted that men aren't immune to this. Rejection can be painful, this is as true for men as it is women.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Dravin

[Praetorian_Brow]

I have heard that tactic of women complaining to me that no one is dating, or that the woman are not being asked out on dates. I even attended a dance where a woman complained incessantly that no one was dancing. Translation, both women can't communicate effectively and try and manipulate the situation so that is always in their favour.

You can accuse me of being bitter and I can agree with that, as I bet you could never walk in my shoes and experienced what I have. You can accuse me of not heeding the advice of my superiors, thats fine, as I highly doubt you understand the concept of a lawful command or having the confidence in yourself to not assume that everything you are told is ethical or moral.

I think its hilarious that the women justify their lack of understanding in men, by claiming its the men's responsibility to further their wants and needs, then get offended that they aren't asked, while they remain passive. I highly doubt a man, even when "heeded the advice of their leaders" would ask a woman out who plays a game that assures her of the outcome that she wants.

If a man played your game, you would discard him as you wouldn't consider him a man. All the women I have been with, played games with me, cheated on me, emotionally, physically and went back to their exes, and yes, they were all mostly Mormon who believed in "heeding their leaders". Excuse me if I don't believe in the fantasy of hypocrisy that seems so prevalent with some cultural expectations.

[Lakumi]

I have heard that tactic of women complaining to me that no one is dating, or that the woman are not being asked out on dates. I even attended a dance where a woman complained incessantly that no one was dancing. Translation, both women can't communicate effectively and try and manipulate the situation so that is always in their favour.

You can accuse me of being bitter and I can agree with that, as I bet you could never walk in my shoes and experienced what I have. You can accuse me of not heeding the advice of my superiors, thats fine, as I highly doubt you understand the concept of a lawful command or having the confidence in yourself to not assume that everything you are told is ethical or moral.

I think its hilarious that the women justify their lack of understanding in men, by claiming its the men's responsibility to further their wants and needs, then get offended that they aren't asked, while they remain passive. I highly doubt a man, even when "heeded the advice of their leaders" would ask a woman out who plays a game that assures her of the outcome that she wants.

If a man played your game, you would discard him as you wouldn't consider him a man. All the women I have been with, played games with me, cheated on me, emotionally, physically and went back to their exes, and yes, they were all mostly Mormon who believed in "heeding their leaders". Excuse me if I don't believe in the fantasy of hypocrisy that seems so prevalent with some cultural expectations.

and when you say you don't want to date you must be a crazy person... I get it all the time

[Eternum]

It's interesting how this turned into a thread of honest opinions/observations. Here's mine:

I'm 30. I'm an unusual female. I've seen the cynicism on both sides through YSA wards, though I was also distantly involved. My own stability situation prevented me from being at church a lot. This helped the detached observations. When I showed up, it felt like hunting season. The cutest, bubbliest girls were getting picked up. Lots of single women complained about guys looking for "Barbie with a testimony."

Me? I've struggled with a family background of abuse, psychotic relatives, and came to a place where I don't want kids. I don't want to be pressured to have them. I am aware of the commandment in the church, and it's my very personal struggle with God over what I've been through and why I wouldn't want to bring kids to this hellhole.

In my mind, that immediately put me out of the running for anyone in the church and that gave me a good, mentally detached place to observe what was going on around me. When I approached guys, it was as friends. I like playing video games. I like reading sci-fi. I found nothing wrong with the guys around me. Many of them were very spiritual and receptive, and I couldn't figure out this "Barbie with a testimony" thing. I also noticed that my no-pressure, no-frills, no "caught in the eternal marriage thing" also created a laid back atmosphere. I actually didn't really have guys hanging out--more like orbiting, I guess trying to figure out what to make of me.

I didn't play mind games. I made it clear I was just making friends, being chill. I was honestly hard to get ahold of anyway, my life being the chaotic mess it was.

I've dated some non-members and a number of them were impressed by my convictions enough to respect things even if they didn't necessarily feel the same walking in. One of them is about to get baptized.

As for me? I've been hit with an autoimmune disease in my late 20s that completely changed my future. I don't know if I'll ever be able to work a job again. So if I felt out of the running before, I feel this really knocks me out. Even if I might get to a point where I'd want kids, it would probably knock my health sideways to have them and try to raise them. So... /shrugs

What do I get out of all this? Identity. I take heart in my skills, my talents, my life, finding balance in my Self and God's forgiveness for my struggles. I'm actually ok with being a crazy cat lady. I'll still be WoW raiding or whatever it is the kids will be doing in 5 years, and I'll still be writing stories. Who knows? Maybe I'll be like Laura Hillenbrand and make a best-selling novel even with this situation I'm in. I'll still be acquiring random, possibly useful skills like music production to try to find more options for finances, and I'll still try to get out and see the world. My interest in making friends hasn't changed, either.

It's been interesting trying to reconcile this concept of eternity with the ever-changing landscape of my life. Every time I think I know what my path looks like, it's changed. So, I've learned to just go with it. I honestly don't even know what an eternal-marriage material relationship looks like. I may stumble into one in the future, I may not, but in the meantime I'm not thinking too hard about anything.