Beyond saving

[Bini]

Last night I watched 'Iceman' based on the true story of hitman Richard Kuklinski. His graphic biography reveals the torture that he and his brother took from their sadist father, followed by a life consumed in illegal pornography and the first murder he committed at 13 years of age. As an adult he becomes a hired killer and is suspected of murdering over 100 people. After a sting-op that puts him behind bars, he's interviewed by a reporter in his later years, and makes a comment along the lines of: "I am not looking for forgiveness because I deserve this. So I will not repent. My only regret is that I hurt my family."

Kuklinski lived a double life, marrying and having two daughters, that he prized and never lifted a hand on - he was a saint in their eyes. The whole family was strict Catholic. When he got convicted, his wife and children (who are middle-aged now) refused to every see him again. He died alone in prison.

What do you make of someone who feels so lost that they don't believe they deserve to repent or receive forgiveness from God because they are so beyond saving? And yet, those are the only two things that will save us: repentance and God's mercy.

[Guest]

Last night I watched 'Iceman' based on the true story of hitman Richard Kuklinski. His graphic biography reveals the torture that he and his brother took from their sadist father, followed by a life consumed in illegal pornography and the first murder he committed at 13 years of age. As an adult he becomes a hired killer and is suspected of murdering over 100 people. After a sting-op that puts him behind bars, he's interviewed by a reporter in his later years, and makes a comment along the lines of: "I am not looking for forgiveness because I deserve this. So I will not repent. My only regret is that I hurt my family."

Kuklinski lived a double life, marrying and having two daughters, that he prized and never lifted a hand on - he was a saint in their eyes. The whole family was strict Catholic. When he got convicted, his wife and children (who are middle-aged now) refused to every see him again. He died alone in prison.

What do you make of someone who feels so lost that they don't believe they deserve to repent or receive forgiveness from God because they are so beyond saving? And yet, those are the only two things that will save us: repentance and God's mercy.

He'll learn some more in the Spirit World. His journey continues...

I saw Phenomenon again yesterday... Favorite quote from that movie... "We are all going somewhere".

[SpiritDragon]

I know this might sound a little crazy but I think that is why there are different degrees of glory. Some one like this may very well choose not to live in the presence of God constantly being reminded of his guilt.

[Bini]

I know this might sound a little crazy but I think that is why there are different degrees of glory. Some one like this may very well choose not to live in the presence of God constantly being reminded of his guilt.

Maybe so.

I just find it so hard to believe that The Lord would allow someone to give up on themselves when they haven't received the gospel and truly believe that they're not worth saving - that they deserve every bit of the pain they're enduring. Someone like this is a lost sheep and The Lord is our shepherd.

Now if said person just flat out took pride in their sins and had no shame, and also refused to repent because they despise that which is good - that's another story. But I felt that from what was portrayed of this man, he felt The Lord should never forgive him, ever. What a big misunderstanding.

[Quin]

Last night I watched 'Iceman' based on the true story of hitman Richard Kuklinski. His graphic biography reveals the torture that he and his brother took from their sadist father, followed by a life consumed in illegal pornography and the first murder he committed at 13 years of age. As an adult he becomes a hired killer and is suspected of murdering over 100 people. After a sting-op that puts him behind bars, he's interviewed by a reporter in his later years, and makes a comment along the lines of: "I am not looking for forgiveness because I deserve this. So I will not repent. My only regret is that I hurt my family."

Kuklinski lived a double life, marrying and having two daughters, that he prized and never lifted a hand on - he was a saint in their eyes. The whole family was strict Catholic. When he got convicted, his wife and children (who are middle-aged now) refused to every see him again. He died alone in prison.

What do you make of someone who feels so lost that they don't believe they deserve to repent or receive forgiveness from God because they are so beyond saving? And yet, those are the only two things that will save us: repentance and God's mercy.

I haven't seem that interview, so don't know his affect / his case in particular... HOWEVER

"Feeling so lost" & "deserve repentance/forgiveness" I'll chime in on.

In my experience, most people begging for forgiveness don't really deserve it.

Because they aren't "there" yet.

They're still going to be making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

It's when people STOP begging for forgiveness, and actually change their lives, that true forgiveness can happen.

Which is NOT to say

- that GOd shouldn't or won't forgive them, nor

- that they don't deserve a hand up, respect, compassion, friendship, etc.

Because, again just in my experience, most people aren't actually asking for forgiveness. They're asking for either tolerance or help.

Which are totally different. Because they're honest in the "thing" continuing. Asking for forgiveness, instead of tolerance or friendship or help, tacitly shows that they WANT it to be in the past.

I LIKE what Dude has to say: that he's not asking for forgiveness... Because it shows that he knows that even things in the past that never repeat... Still cause pain.

To ME that very much shows a cognitive awareness that means I'd lay serious money down that he WAS a very good father. If he were begging families to forgive him, I'd be worried for his own family... As that shows a selfcentered blindness towards the hearts and mind of others. It makes an act committed against someone else turned around to make it all about the person committing it.

Which is the opposite of being lost. It's knowing exactly what and who you are, and what you've done. It owns the acts and the implications of those acts. It's selfless, instead of selfish.

Since I'm not the ape that guards the balance, nor in charge, I have no idea what that means to God. But I rather suspect that someone that honest & selfless is someone who can be worked with.

Q

[dahlia]

I watched a lot of 'Mobsters' videos on YouTube a few weeks ago and an interview with the Iceman was one of them. I've seen him before on TV. Unlike a lot of people, I can understand the ability to split his criminal life from his family life. You see that a lot with the mob - and from my experience you don't have to be mafia to be able to compartmentalize like that.

What I got from the interview was how horribly he'd been treated as a child and the effect of that abuse on the man he became. I don't excuse what he did, I'm just noting that abuse has repercussions throughout a person's life that neither the abuser nor the abusee are aware of at the time of abuse. His father was a true monster.

Also, it seems to be one thing to kill, it's another to start enjoying it, which he did. While watching the Mobsters series, you saw plenty of people who killed, but only a few enjoyed it and sought out the experience.

I can understand why he felt he was beyond saving, but I also got the feeling that he wished that wasn't true. It's strange, for being Catholic, that he didn't try confession with a priest, but when you are feeling lost...

I just find it so hard to believe that The Lord would allow someone to give up on themselves when they haven't received the gospel and truly believe that they're not worth saving - that they deserve every bit of the pain they're enduring. Someone like this is a lost sheep and The Lord is our shepherd.

Now if said person just flat out took pride in their sins and had no shame, and also refused to repent because they despise that which is good - that's another story. But I felt that from what was portrayed of this man, he felt The Lord should never forgive him, ever. What a big misunderstanding.

Yes. What is the point of doing work for the dead if there is no hope of repentance and redemption?

btw - Michael Shannon, who was perfection as Zod in 'Man of Steel' played Kuklinski in a film (there are some clips on YT).

[Lakumi]

btw - Michael Shannon, who was perfection as Zod in 'Man of Steel' played Kuklinski in a film (there are some clips on YT).

he never told the son of Jor'el to kneel, he is no Zod

[Misshalfway]

I saw the Iceman interview a couple of years ago. Truthfully, I felt compassion for the man.......well, not the man who knew better, but the boy who suffered and who didn't know to make other choices.

In these cases, I think I get a sense of how it should go, but then opt out of the judgment quickly. I think that only a God could discern a case like this.

I also really love that learning continues on in the afterlife. And that God finds a way to compensate our losses. Of course, that promise is according to faithfulness. And perhaps this man has lost his inclination towards faithfulness, but I don't suppose behavior alone can testify of that. If it isn't all dead inside of him, perhaps there is hope.