Can't believe that God isn't eternal

[JimmiGerman]

This is what I tend to believe.

I'm not sure if I even would like to become a God. But I fear there are many who would reach out for that and they better shouldn't become a God or like a God on any account.

[Traveler]

Wasn't it Joseph Smith, the prophet, talking in "DoC" about knowledge and intelligence...? I think he premonitioned science as an important element of human destiny. I deeply believe that scriptures can be revised or replenished by new revelations or new insights. Today we know a million times more things and scientific facts than the people or alchemists of the past. But we haven't lost our Christian faith. I think that God expects us to learn more about his Creation and wonderful universe to become closer to understanding his supernatural being. Perhaps he would say: "Find me", and not only by old scriptures. My credo: why should I read only in an old book when I also could read in a new book? That's why I considered to read Mormon scriptures and could define my Christian believe from a new level or plane.

It appears to me from observations of creation that G-d is the greatest scientist of this universe. It also appears to me, at least from scriptures that Jesus was also involved in the creation (John Chapter 1). We learn from the example of Jesus that the center purpose of his scientific prowess was to be of service to others and to provide benefit for others.

Strange as it may seem - most scientist I have encountered are not as ego centric as often portrayed as the scientific stereo-type though there are always exceptions. There are also stereo-typical religious center individuals as being egotistical and self serving and I believe Jesus connected well with this stereo-type in his use of the Priest and Levitt in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

I believe the point I am trying to make is that to the folly fallen human nature we tend to be selfish and view G-d and admire him mostly for his power and authority rather than his humanitarian acts of service. But because G-d is a brilliant scientist he was able to provide the creation through great sacrifice and service. This is which most distinguishes the greatness of G-d and the purpose that I believe science and religion ought to provide - that those involved may be greater and more effective servants.

It is to this end - of great service and ultimate sacrifice that I see purpose in man becoming like G-d and reason to pursue the truth in science as well as religion - and that no truth is greater than the love of G-d (including his service and sacrifice). Therefore to become G-d, as we learn in LDS doctrine is not to become most powerful or the most smart but to become scientist performing brilliant acts of sacrifice and service.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe it was Lorenzo Snow who first said, “As*man*now is,*God*once was;*as God*is now*man*may be.”

It's my understanding of LDS theology that God was once a man in another planet or universe and became God only through obeying His god.

I have trouble accepting this. I mean, isn't God supposed to be THE Supreme Being? I always understood God as that of which nothing is higher. But if he was once a man, doesn't that mean there is someone or something greater than God? It also reduces Him to a creature, someone who was once made. Isn't God supposed to have no beginning and no end?

Is it wrong that I consider myself a somewhat faithful Mormon yet don't believe that God is an exalted man?

We believe it is possible for man to inherit all that God has. All means all. There is only one way to inherit all that God has and not diminish anything He has or lessen Him by any of us having it and that is if it is shared. Covenants allow us to share. We share responsibility and also the glory that comes with it via the covenants. The sealing power allows us to share the success of others.

If there is one bank account that has been around forever and I add a person to the bank account then that person does not own more or less than anyone else on the bank account and they now own the full history of the bank account, all that was put in before their name was on the account. By being a part of that bank account, the person can claim ownership to all of its history and future. Similarly, reaching that level of the Celestial Kingdom is a process of inheritance. What is inherited? All that was done before, as if it was their own.

Also, as stated, man is a dual being both physical and spiritual. When comparing man to God, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. What aspect of man are you comparing, the part that turns to dust?

[JimmiGerman]

What is eternity? Is it something that once began and will never end? Or something that has no beginning and will never end? Or something that has a beginning and will end in a billion years far beyond of our imagination or experience? For a man only a decade on Earth might become an eternity. It depends on the situation or the aspect...

[erichard]

I believe it was Lorenzo Snow who first said, “As*man*now is,*God*once was;*as God*is now*man*may be.”

...Is it wrong that I consider myself a somewhat faithful Mormon yet don't believe that God is an exalted man?

Hi,

This is my understanding of this matter. I have considered it for a long time.

The term God does not refer to just one finite personage. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost-- the God of this Earth-- are three finite personages, but they are one God. That is because they are in perfect unity as taught in John 17.

Except for the creedal use of these terms, the terms "Father" and "Son" in EVERY other usage refer to beings in a lineage. In the Mormon understanding, the Son really did become like His Father. And the Father really was once a son. Just like these terms imply in normal usage.

That means that God the Father has a resurrected body. Hmm. How did He get that? Well, the same way Christ obtained His resurrected body.

And this means by any understanding that the word God refers to an infinite Lineage of exalted beings. Go read the words of the Hymn, "If You Could Hie to Kolob".

This lineage has no beginning. This is hard for us to understand. But apparently the reason is because we do not fully understand what "time" is.

So the UNION of exalted finite beings that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are part of IS uncreated, infinite, eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, etc etc. In other words, it has all of the attributes that many associate with GOD.

All beings in this UNION are in a state of eternal progression, but the UNION itself is eternally perfect in all attributes.

It is my understanding that Jesus was the Only Begotten of His Father on this earth. His Father was a Savior of a previous earth, and Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, doing the same works and gaining the same position as Savior of the World for this earth.

We are NOT of the Savior lineage, but we are of the lineage that can become Joint-Heirs with the Savior. Abraham and Sarah are examples for us as we seek this reward.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We are NOT of the Savior lineage, but we are of the lineage that can become Joint-Heirs with the Savior. Abraham and Sarah are examples for us as we seek this reward.

Where did you get this idea? If Jesus is our brother then we are of the same lineage. Do you not believe that Jesus is our brother?

D&C 93; 21-22; " 21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn."

All those who are faithful members of the church of the Firstborn will have the same glory as Christ. Christ acted in our name, vicariously. That does not diminish the act because it was done vicariously. A sealing done vicariously in the temple if accepted by those who passed is not anything less than those who did it while here for their self. Likewise, all that Christ has done can be ours too, as He did it for us. The same applies to God and the inheritance He received. If He had a Savior, an eldest brother, and He was faithful in the church of the Firstborn, then He becomes the same as the Firstborn as if He did it Himself. Then, rightfully, Jesus could say that 'I only do what I see the Father has done.' Because there is a Union, as you mentioned, it does not have to be done by all of us but by one. If we break the union, by disobedience, then we cannot receive it. Obviously, God didn't do that, He remained faithful, whether He was the Firstborn or a faithful member of the church of the Firstborn, it is the same.

The Sacrament itself is a symbol of taking on His flesh and blood, to remind us that He did this vicariously for us. If we internalize what He did, then it is equal to what He did for Himself. We take on His flesh and blood, there is no different lineage.

[Guest]

That means that God the Father has a resurrected body. Hmm. How did He get that? Well, the same way Christ obtained His resurrected body.

We don't know that this is true. This has not been revealed. If President Monson reveals to us that God attained his exalted body by sprinkling himself with fairy dust, it wouldn't contradict what we know of him now.

It is my understanding that Jesus was the Only Begotten of His Father on this earth. His Father was a Savior of a previous earth, and Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, doing the same works and gaining the same position as Savior of the World for this earth.

Also not doctrine. We know Jesus is the savior of this earth. We don't know anything about the saviors of other earths or if there are any.

But, it's always fun to logically figure it out in our minds and come up with these theories. As long as we know it is not doctrine and that we don't tell others that it is what the LDS Church believes.

[Lakumi]

We don't know that this is true. This has not been revealed. If President Monson reveals to us that God attained his exalted body by sprinkling himself with fairy dust, it wouldn't contradict what we know of him now.

Also not doctrine. We know Jesus is the savior of this earth. We don't know anything about the saviors of other earths or if there are any.

But, it's always fun to logically figure it out in our minds and come up with these theories. As long as we know it is not doctrine and that we don't tell others that it is what the LDS Church believes.

except that faeries exist

[andypg]

So from what I'm understanding, since it hasn't really been made clear by prophets, I am free to believe what I want about the origins of God as long as I don't preach it as doctrine of the Church?

[Guest]

This is what I tend to believe.

Okay, I think you're still in the Trinitarian belief.

Trinitarians believe that God is a different substance from Man. Just like Man is a different substance from Dog. What makes God a God is this substance.

LDS do not believe that. LDS believe that God is the same substance as Man and what makes God a God is not his substance but his Perfection.

When you ask a Trinitarian - what substance is God made of? They will answer - nobody knows - it's a mystery. So, they don't know what it is but they will assure you that whatever it is, it is not the same as Man's.

Well, the LDS claim that we know exactly what it is... Perfection.

Trinitarians, just like LDS, believe that there are 3 Persons in that One God... Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. But these 3 persons somehow is just one substance which is God.

The LDS also believe that there are 3 Persons in that One God... Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. But these 3 persons are One God because all 3 have the same Perfection. They are One in Desire, One in Will, One in Purpose, One in Action, One in Love - Perfectly United. We call this the Godhead.

Therefore, in Trinitarian belief, we can never be God because we are of different substance than God. But, through the Atonement of Christ, we can become Godlike - One in Desire, One in Will, One in Purpose, One in Action, One in Love - with God.

In LDS belief - because we are of the same substance as God, when we become One in Desire, One in Will, One in Purpose, One in Action, One in Love with God, then we become Perfectly United with all 3 Persons in the Godhead which makes us Gods.

Now, Trinitarians take affront to this. They think this is diminishing God - that is, we become equal with God or even better than God. We, the LDS, don't see it that way. Let's take your mortal father, for example. Say he is a really good father and taught you everything you needed to know which turned you into a great father yourself to your own children. Did that make you equal or better than your own father? No. Your father is still your father and is worthy of that elevated position of respect regardless of how great a father you, yourself have become. Because anything you achieve due to the teachings of your father is glory added to your father.

Hope this helps.

Edited October 7, 2013 by anatess

[Lakumi]

So from what I'm understanding, since it hasn't really been made clear by prophets, I am free to believe what I want about the origins of God as long as I don't preach it as doctrine of the Church?

that's what I do, doesn't effect anything

I also had the idea of sandwiching everything I believe together and seeing what it looked like

[Guest]

So from what I'm understanding, since it hasn't really been made clear by prophets, I am free to believe what I want about the origins of God as long as I don't preach it as doctrine of the Church?

Yep. And as long as it doesn't contradict what we do know of God as has been revealed to the Church. For example, it has been revealed that God the Father is made of flesh and bones as he appeared to Joseph Smith. So we can't go off of the idea in our theories to figure out God's origin that God is a different substance. Make sense?

[Guest]

that's what I do, doesn't effect anything

I also had the idea of sandwiching everything I believe together and seeing what it looked like

How's that baptism coming?

[Lakumi]

How's that baptism coming?

still deathly afraid, been reading the BoM more, praying and what not

hard to go at something alone you know

[Guest]

still deathly afraid, been reading the BoM more, praying and what not

hard to go at something alone you know

You're never alone... you got lds.net! :)

[andypg]

Okay, I think you're still in the Trinitarian belief.

Trinitarians believe that God is a different substance from Man. Just like Man is a different substance from Dog. What makes God a God is this substance.

LDS do not believe that. LDS believe that God is the same substance as Man and what makes God a God is not his substance but his Perfection.

When you ask a Trinitarian - what substance is God made of? They will answer - nobody knows - it's a mystery. So, they don't know what it is but they will assure you that whatever it is, it is not the same as Man's.

Well, the LDS claim that we know exactly what it is... Perfection.

Trinitarians, just like LDS, believe that there are 3 Persons in that One God... Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. But these 3 persons somehow is just one substance which is God.

The LDS also believe that there are 3 Persons in that One God... Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. But these 3 persons are One God because all 3 have the same Perfection. They are One in Desire, One in Will, One in Purpose, One in Action, One in Love - Perfectly United. We call this the Godhead.

Therefore, in Trinitarian belief, we can never be God because we are of different substance than God. But, through the Atonement of Christ, we can become Godlike - One in Desire, One in Will, One in Purpose, One in Action, One in Love - with God.

In LDS belief - because we are of the same substance as God, when we become One in Desire, One in Will, One in Purpose, One in Action, One in Love with God, then we become Perfectly United with all 3 Persons in the Godhead which makes us Gods.

Now, Trinitarians take affront to this. They think this is diminishing God - that is, we become equal with God or even better than God. We, the LDS, don't see it that way. Let's take your mortal father, for example. Say he is a really good father and taught you everything you needed to know which turned you into a great father yourself to your own children. Did that make you equal or better than your own father? No. Your father is still your father and is worthy of that elevated position of respect regardless of how great a father you, yourself have become. Because anything you achieve due to the teachings of your father is glory added to your father.

Hope this helps.

My understanding of the afterlife (even while I was a Catholic) was that in heaven we will reach communion with God. That is, we will reach perfect unity with God. That's how I interpret exultation, not as becoming gods of our own planets, but we will reach a special and perfect union with Him.

[andypg]

Yep. And as long as it doesn't contradict what we do know of God as has been revealed to the Church. For example, it has been revealed that God the Father is made of flesh and bones as he appeared to Joseph Smith. So we can't go off of the idea in our theories to figure out God's origin that God is a different substance. Make sense?

I believe God has a physical body. But I don't (can't?) believe in infinite progression of gods (that God has a god who has a god who has a god). So how He got that body, I don't know. Maybe He always had it. Could be. That seems to be my take on this. Hopefully you won't report me to President Monson or my bishop for excommunication.

[Lakumi]

I believe God has a physical body. But I don't (can't?) believe in infinite progression of gods (that God has a god who has a god who has a god). So how He got that body, I don't know. Maybe He always had it. Could be. That seems to be my take on this. Hopefully you won't report me to President Monson or my bishop for excommunication.

I believe whatever God created this universe, came from outside this universe, from whatever plain of existence that is (one humans could never comprehend)

[Guest]

My understanding of the afterlife (even while I was a Catholic) was that in heaven we will reach communion with God. That is, we will reach perfect unity with God. That's how I interpret exultation, not as becoming gods of our own planets, but we will reach a special and perfect union with Him.

Great! That's what the LDS believe too! And that's exactly what it means for us to become God!

I believe God has a physical body. But I don't (can't?) believe in infinite progression of gods (that God has a god who has a god who has a god). So how He got that body, I don't know. Maybe He always had it. Could be. That seems to be my take on this. Hopefully you won't report me to President Monson or my bishop for excommunication.

That's fine. That's not LDS doctrine so you're cool on that one. God having his own God or us having our own planets is merely reasoned logical extrapolation, not revealed doctrine to the Church.

See, you're smart. You know exactly what to believe and what to question!

[andypg]

Great! That's what the LDS believe too! And that's exactly what it means for us to become God!

That's fine. That's not LDS doctrine so you're cool on that one. God having his own God is merely reasoned logical extrapolation, not revealed doctrine to the Church.

Yay! I'm not a heretic.

Now I don't see what's the big deal Trinitarians make about exaltation. They believe the same thing, just not the same terminology. I wrote an entire paper on it in an Intro to Christianity class last year taught by a pre-Vatican 2 Catholic. They just don't say "become God." They had me scared for nothing. The doctrine of exaltation worried me. I don't want my own planet! Lol I just want to live with my Heavenly Father!

So I guess I am a Latter-Day Saint...with a couple more things to work out it seems.

[Lakumi]

Yay! I'm not a heretic.

Now I don't see what's the big deal Trinitarians make about exaltation. They believe the same thing, just not the same terminology. I wrote an entire paper on it in an Intro to Christianity class last year taught by a pre-Vatican 2 Catholic. They just don't say "become God." They had me scared for nothing. The doctrine of exaltation worried me. I don't want my own planet! Lol I just want to live with my Heavenly Father!

So I guess I am a Latter-Day Saint...with a couple more things to work out it seems.

as long as my planet isn't the Nazi-Planet from the original Star Trek...ooh maybe it will be the one from my book, where Lokasenna lives...

and all would be bathed within the ceremonial lake, at the foot of the tree where I would live.

[Guest]

Yay! I'm not a heretic.

Now I don't see what's the big deal Trinitarians make about exaltation. They believe the same thing, just not the same terminology. I wrote an entire paper on it in an Intro to Christianity class last year taught by a pre-Vatican 2 Catholic. They just don't say "become God." They had me scared for nothing. The doctrine of exaltation worried me. I don't want my own planet! Lol I just want to live with my Heavenly Father!

So I guess I am a Latter-Day Saint...with a couple more things to work out it seems.

Yeah, I found out while researching LDS doctrine - before I got baptized - that everything I know to be true as a devout Catholic did not all of a sudden become false. It just got added to and became much, much clearer.

I also found out that just like Catholics, LDS members have their own Aquinas'-like favorites for reasoned extrapolations of doctrine. So that we all get in this bind of having to weed out the extrapolations from actual doctrine just like how we had to do that as Catholics when the Pope told us that unlike St. Augustine's and St. Thomas Aquinas' reasoned extrapolations about limbo, unbaptized babies do still qualify for the Beatific Vision.

Ahh, you see it in this thread alone... doctrine and reasoned extrapolations mangled together into a pretzel.

Edited October 7, 2013 by anatess

[Guest]

as long as my planet isn't the Nazi-Planet from the original Star Trek...ooh maybe it will be the one from my book, where Lokasenna lives...

and all would be bathed within the ceremonial lake, at the foot of the tree where I would live.

I wouldn't mind being the savior of Coruscant.

[Lakumi]

I wouldn't mind being the savior of Coruscant.

the giant city?

with aliens, and drugs and robots? lol

[Guest]

the giant city?

with aliens, and drugs and robots? lol

And siths and jedis. Yep.