And Nothing Shall Offend Them

[Guest Username-Removed]

What did you guys think of Elder David A. Bednar talk about this subject ...

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5...-646-32,00.html

It was thought provoking for me. I remember a time when I was inactive, that many things offended me. Now hardly anything does. I suppose there is a reason behind that.

Also, I found it interesting that on this last conference, there was a talk by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland about not offending with the way we talk. http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5...1-690-7,00.html

They seem to go hand in hand to me.

[Guest mamacat]

i understand what you mean....when i first began learning about LDS, i went to as many sources on the internet that i could i find. i had such intense questions, and they were endless! the missionaries who would visit us often would miss our appointments, promise to answer questions that they never did, and forget to return our calls...the bishop's family would invite us for dinner to discuss things, and then never follow through....people would tell me they would return with answers and then disappear altogether. so usually i just did my own searches on the internet and in bookstores.

and i discovered a lot more negative stuff about LDS than truth. and much of it was very very convincing. but what began to occur to me was that i could see very clearly through the negativity. it was like water flowing through a seive...it would flow around the debris, and what was dross just flowed out of my vision, leaving only what was real. it was amazing and beautiful. the negativity is just unsubstantial fluff really. every time, without straining my thoughts to understand at all, i would understand implicitly why the untruths being stated were wrong. and the truth seemed even more emphatic....it was as though it would just glow that much more brightly, like a light shining in the darkness, as opposed to shining in the brightness of midday. the clarity was that much more stark.

and i would i not be offended at the efforts to denigrate all things LDS. i would simply perceive that those making these efforts were not seeing with spirit, were suffering and in pain in some respect, and that this was actually a bend in their path -- an obstacle of a personal nature, on their path to truth.

or those efforts of those who, for whatever misguided reasons, wish to keep people from discerning truth, from walking on their own in the light of the spirit....these efforts, in the negative literature i would read, seemed amazingly ineffective as well. and what i would feel was gratitude, mostly, for these efforts made even more clear the truth that is inherent in LDS. i would not feel any resentment whatsoever at the hostile thoughts about lds that i encountered. simply a sense of well-being, in seeing how easily these misperceptions dissipate in the light of spirit.

there is movie called The Believer about a man who despises the jewish religion with unabashed venom and hostility. he assumes the persona of a 'skinhead', an active anti-semite who wreaks sabotage on everything religious he can find....attacking jewish people...decimating sacred objects in the temple...among other violent anti-semitic acts. but in his most private moments he begins reading the torah with more reverence than the people in the temple who worship publicly. he is jewish, grew up reciting torah, though he hides his identity from his fellow skinheads. the film was made by jewish filmakers, i think even a rabbi was involved. meant to show, i think, that extreme rebellion against something only emphasizes its truth to a greater extent. if it weren't so real, it wouldn't be worth the effort to deny it in so extreme a manner. it's as though the man in his heart is testing the strength of his beliefs, and through all of his efforts, they cannot be shaken. it really is a very beautiful film, and i see elements of this in much of the anti-mormon literature that i have seen. and these do not cause offense.

cool topic.

[Guest Username-Removed]

I guess the trick is that if you are offended, especially by someone talking about the gospel, then perhaps there is an issue there, perhaps. Also, we never want to intentionally offend, just to see if someone is offended, at least thats what I got out of Hollands talk. They go hand in hand to me.

[the_jason]

What did you guys think of Elder David A. Bednar talk about this subject ...

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5...-646-32,00.html

Perhaps my favorite talk of all time. He explained simply how being offended is a choice, not a condition. I also liked the example he gave when he visited a less active member who was offended. He then says this to the person: "Let me make sure I understand what has happened to you. Because someone at church offended you, you have not been blessed by the ordinance of the sacrament. You have withdrawn yourself from the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. Because someone at church offended you, you have cut yourself off from priesthood ordinances and the holy temple. You have discontinued your opportunity to serve others and to learn and grow. And you are leaving barriers that will impede the spiritual progress of your children, your children's children, and the generations that will follow." Of course, the less-active member had never thought of it that way.

Elder Bednar has become my favorite speaker, and this talk is a perfect example why.

[sixpacktr]

I particularly liked Elder Bednar's comment that we will all, at one time or another, be offended by someone at church. It is inevitable.

It was one of those talks that will be referred to for a long time, much as Elder McConkie's talk on Christ, Pres Benson's talks on the BOM and Pride, Elder Oak's talk on Pornography.

I was a Bishop's son, and knew of some that didn't come to church because they didn't like my father. I spent time in a Bishopric and had the same result, even though that Bishop was very kind hearted. I feel that many times those that take offense want a reason to not come, and saying so-and-so or that Bishop, etc., hurt my feelings so I'm never going back, is a way to achieve that.

But we still have a responsiblity and obligation as HT and VT to visit them and help them as best as we can, and give them every chance to repent and prepare themselves...

[Guest mamacat]

i don't attend our sacrament meetings anymore. but not because of being offended. God is God, and people are people, wherever they are, even in sacrament meeting.

i don't attend because i'm afraid to go. i'm afraid of the people there. i'm afraid of what will happen to my son. i've tried talking to people, being outgoing, helping teach primary....and i encounter hostility wherever i turn. i've tried justifying this in my mind and heart over and over.....

but ultimately, i think God also helps us, and answers our prayers by letting us know through our feelings and senses what is proper for us to do and not do. i feel scared and shaky and nauseous whenever i think about taking my son to sacrament meeting. i am afraid of the people in the church, almost every experience we've had there has been one of inconsistency and hostility.

i desire to attend, it just doesn't seem very beneficial for our health or well-being. but offended i'm not.

[BenRaines]

Reminds me of the story of an elderly lady who went to church every Sunday. Sat in the back and watched the sermon, see she could not hear so had no idea what was being said. After many years the minister came to her and told her that he was sure God would understand if she didn't come to church since she could not hear a word said. He told him that she didn't come to the sermon to hear what was said but to show God whose side she was on.

Reminds me of when the Children of Israel were found worshiping the golden calf after Moses had been on the mount for a long time. I believe it was Joshua who drew a line and said for those who were on the Lords side to step over. Those that did not were consumed in an earthquake and fire. Whose on the Lord's side who.

Ben Raines

[Blessed]

i don't attend our sacrament meetings anymore. but not because of being offended. God is God, and people are people, wherever they are, even in sacrament meeting.

i don't attend because i'm afraid to go. i'm afraid of the people there. i'm afraid of what will happen to my son. i've tried talking to people, being outgoing, helping teach primary....and i encounter hostility wherever i turn. i've tried justifying this in my mind and heart over and over.....

but ultimately, i think God also helps us, and answers our prayers by letting us know through our feelings and senses what is proper for us to do and not do. i feel scared and shaky and nauseous whenever i think about taking my son to sacrament meeting. i am afraid of the people in the church, almost every experience we've had there has been one of inconsistency and hostility.

i desire to attend, it just doesn't seem very beneficial for our health or well-being. but offended i'm not.

Mamacat, I don't think I would not attend either and nor would I feel guilty about not attending. God sees the heart and for the desire to worship. He understands the reasons too for not attending.

Can you go to a different ward?

[Guest Username-Removed]

i don't attend our sacrament meetings anymore. but not because of being offended. God is God, and people are people, wherever they are, even in sacrament meeting.

i don't attend because i'm afraid to go. i'm afraid of the people there. i'm afraid of what will happen to my son. i've tried talking to people, being outgoing, helping teach primary....and i encounter hostility wherever i turn. i've tried justifying this in my mind and heart over and over.....

but ultimately, i think God also helps us, and answers our prayers by letting us know through our feelings and senses what is proper for us to do and not do. i feel scared and shaky and nauseous whenever i think about taking my son to sacrament meeting. i am afraid of the people in the church, almost every experience we've had there has been one of inconsistency and hostility.

i desire to attend, it just doesn't seem very beneficial for our health or well-being. but offended i'm not.

Mama,

I can totally relate to your story. As you know by now, I was very VERY inactive for years. I decided something was missing, at about that time, I started getting all kinds of spiritual promptings to go back to church. Everytime I went, there was something that bothered me. Finally, a woman refused to pass me the sacrement! I knew I had a decision to make, and I knew that I was going to go to church no matter what because it was was heavanly father wanted me to do. I knew it was! 4 months later, things started to feel kinda, sorta, somewhat normal, and finally, I am well respected in my ward. I have a calling as the Emergency Preparedness coordinator and I am also a home teacher. I am very VERY active, and I wouldnt have it any other way. I would say that Satan, finnally gave up on me and knew that I was going no matter what. Yes it was hard. Yes it was painful. Yes I thought it would be better not to go from my personal standpoint, but I also knew that heavanly father wanted me to go every week!

May I suggest something? Find out what heavanly father wants and may I also bless you with the courage to do whatever he wants. I promise you, that if you will do what he wants you will be blessed, more so than you can comprehend now. Thats my testimony, speaking from a convert who was active, then not, then active again. Ive seen both sides, and, in my opinion, there is only once choice. I challenge you to find out for yourself.

God bless!

WORD!

[Guest mamacat]

Blessed and Word ~ i appreciate both of your replies. thank you for impressing the importance of the desire of Heavenly Father on me.....and seeking my own knowledge of His wishes for both my son and me. it is His truth that i seek, and i try to discern this, amidst all the worldliness in which we are so enmeshed.

love mamacat

[a-train]

Mamacat,

Just go anyway. Sit on the front row so that you won't see anyone but the speakers. I am willing to make the assumption that there is at least someone in the ward that is not completely shallow, but will treat you and yours in a manner far removed from anything you would fear.

Besides, if the whole ward is nothing but prideful depraved souls, you need to be there to keep lightning from striking the building and killing them all in the middle of such a sacrilegious sacrament meeting.

-a-train

[Guest mamacat]

dear a-train ~ your posts are always brilliant - you have great style. :)

the people in the ward are not depraved or prideful, nor are they sacreligious...i do not wish to depict it this way, and i am sorry that it appears as such.

i'm sure they don't need me to save them, lol.

and i'm sure also that i will find something that will fit all of our needs.

love to you, mamacat

[Guest mamacat]

what does it mean to be 'not active'?

we keep sunday sacred, tithe, follow the word of wisdom, read the gospel....book of mormon for kids to my son, we have a primary activity book....and all that....

but we don't attend sacrament meeting, at present.

does that render us 'not active'?

[sixpacktr]

Yes, it does.

The whole reason for attending Sacrament meeting is to partake of the Sacrament and renew your covenants. Do you know that when you worthily partake of the Sacrament your sins are forgiven you again? Just like being baptized all over...

I don't know your situation, and don't need to know. However, I would really counsel you to attend Sacrament and feel the spirit again and partake of the Sacrament. It will help you, I promise.

I don't know your ward, but I guarantee that they will be happy to see you. I know we always were happy to see people come back...

[Guest mamacat]

thank you sixpacktr.

[Guest mamacat]

i have another question about being inactive...

i know of some members who attend sacrament meeting erratically...once, sometmes twice a month. are they active or inactive?

my last attendance was 2 weeks ago....am i considered inactive until i attend again?

also about tithing....our only income, child support, is $800 a month. this covers rent and bills. i asked one priesthood member if i'm supposed to tithe on this, and his answer was no...he then asked another member, who said yes. i've tried discovering whether or not we should tithe this money, but after a lot of thought, and some effort i think probably that i should....though it isn't easy!

sometimes, on my birthday or christmas, my father gives us a generous monetary gift -- $3000 at christmas, $1000 birthday.....

and i tithed extra from this for the months that i wasn't sure....(i was baptised mid-january).

wondering, is it ok to take our tithe from these larger amounts, rather than our monthly amounts?

[Guest mamacat]

i should also add, i suppose, that i made a firm commitment to stay at home with my child before he was born, and homeshcool him. his father agreed with this, both before we were married and after.

being in these limited circmstances does not limit this principle for me. in fact, i was highly impressed with the everything in LDS due to its focus on children and family...and i found such positive support for LDS homeschooling.

however, we will begin our own cottage business from our home soon...to generate extra income for our household. and of course we will fully tithe on whatever increase this engenders. though i don't know how soon that actually will be.

i like tithing...of course i would love tithing even more than we do now....with an increase in our increase.

[the_jason]

"Nevertheless the children of God were commanded that they should gather themselves together oft, and join in fasting and mighty prayer in behalf of the welfare of the souls of those who knew not God." - Alma 6:6

Yes, sacrament meeting attendance is required.

i have another question about being inactive...

i know of some members who attend sacrament meeting erratically...once, sometmes twice a month. are they active or inactive?

my last attendance was 2 weeks ago....am i considered inactive until i attend again?

Active members attend regularly. What is regularly? That's up to you. If you attend every couple of weeks you could probably be considered active. If you attend every couple of months or years then you probably are not.

Also about tithing....our only income, child support, is $800 a month. this covers rent and bills. i asked one priesthood member if i'm supposed to tithe on this, and his answer was no...he then asked another member, who said yes. i've tried discovering whether or not we should tithe this money, but after a lot of thought, and some effort i think probably that i should....though it isn't easy!

sometimes, on my birthday or christmas, my father gives us a generous monetary gift -- $3000 at christmas, $1000 birthday.....

and i tithed extra from this for the months that i wasn't sure....(i was baptised mid-january).

wondering, is it ok to take our tithe from these larger amounts, rather than our monthly amounts?

Tithing is paid on your increase. Increase is determined as you counsel with the Lord, and the answer is received by the Spirit. Personally, I'd rather tithe too much than tithe too little. You cannot understand the law of tithing, nor receive its' promised blessings, if you do not follow the commandment.

[Guest mamacat]

i'm not unfamiliar with tithing, i practiced this in a different form (actually, i still do) before i became lds.

perhaps my question wasn't clear ~ is it ok to tithe on our entire increase from one of the larger amounts that i mentioned?

for example -- if my increase, @80/month * 12 = 960....is it then acceptable to pay this tithe from one of the larger amounts i receive as a gift at birthday or christmas, rather than make the tithes every month?

[a-train]

I think the frequency by which we present our offerings should be no less regular than the periodicity by which our increase comes to us.

What does that mean? If you are paid weekly, then offer at least once a week. If your income is bi-weekly, then present offerings bi-weekly at least. If you obtain all of your income once a month, then pay tithing once a month minimally. And if you are paid your entire annual increase at one time each year, then at least tithe all of it at that time.

Now, D&C 119 says we are to give all of our surplus to the LORD and then, in addition, pay one-tenth of all our interest 'annually'. We here have the institution of our annual tithing settlement.

Now, I assume there are some that would herein stake a claim that they can wait until their tithing settlement at the end of each year to pay their offering, however that would be only fulfilling part of this commandment at best, and could easily mean that through circumstances unforseeable that one could go untithed altogether. SUCH A RISK IS NOT WORTH TAKING. Consider the possible ramifications.

The Mosiac Law of Tithing mandated that the firstfruits be given as a tithing, therefore meaning that tribute was first paid to the LORD and then the remaining bounty was consumed by the submitter. Although, we are not under that same law today, we are still to practice the law as was practiced by Abraham. (Gen 14:20) For the period between the restoration and the LORD's coming is one of tithing, for 'verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.' (D&C 64:23)

What if His coming is on April 3rd, will you say: 'Oh I was going to use my tax return to get last year handled.'? Or what about December 23rd: 'Oh, Grandma's Christmas money would have paid it.'? Will you risk being 'burned' on someone else, on flesh?

The LORD who grants your increase on His terms should be tithed on His terms. If He pays your family throughout the month, then pay throughout the month. Give Him your firstfruits.

Can we live any of the LORD's commandments retro-actively? (I asked this once before). Can we go back and live the Law of Chastity, the Word of Wisdom, any of the Ten Commandments, after we have gone without doing so? Why is tithing altogether different?

Satan and company wants you to think your tithing situation is unique, complicated, and should be limited to some time as far distant from now as possible. 'You require the whole of what God has now granted and only when he gives you more will you be able to tithe.' they say. Wait, this isn't subtle enough. They say: 'Your car broke down this month and the only means you have to get it fixed is what little you possess, the LORD will understand if you forego your tithing and get the car repaired, make up for it later.'

This is not faith, this is fear. This is fear that God cannot provide you with sufficience for your needs. This is fear that your Provider has overlooked you, or has changed His mind with regard to your sustenance.

This is a mistrust and a lack of faith in God's word: 'Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.' (Mal 3:10)

Go to your bishop with your tithes as soon as you have increase with which to pay them and if you lack anything, the LORD will provide it either through the Bishop or other Divine Intervention. Regardless, it is the same.

GOD BLESS

Hope this helps.

Remember, 'Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.' 2 Kings 6:16) 'For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.' (2 Tim. 1:7)

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

Do what works for you mamacat.

Just pay tithing.

Our actions and intent both come into play on Judgment Day. Pay as soon as you can, certainly. Just don't condemn yourself if you have to wait several months or whatnot. If you're holding back so you can afford a new HDTV...yeah, self-explanitory. If not, again, pay tithing when you can.

a-train had some sound scriptural advice that shouldn't be discounted.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Do what works for you mamacat.

Just pay tithing.

Our actions and intent both come into play on Judgment Day. Pay as soon as you can, certainly. Just don't condemn yourself if you have to wait several months or whatnot. If you're holding back so you can afford a new HDTV...yeah, self-explanitory. If not, again, pay tithing when you can.

a-train had some sound scriptural advice that shouldn't be discounted.

You wouldnt believe how many people go out and buy an HDTV and cant even afford groceries!!! I did a lot of volunteer work at the Bishops Storehouse when I came on some hard times. I still do enjoy giving some free time! One time was working around the holidays and I couldnt believe how many people were in there getting baskets of turkey and ham - only saw most of those once, then they never came back! That was hard to understand for me. I think you have to be frugel, at least I am. I dont even have a cell phone and I use every benefit that my company offers me as much as possible. I am a full tithe payer, and I am proud to be so, because I know the blessings that come from it. I also work very hard at my job, and I find that the lord has blessed me there too. There are things that i do at work that make me more money as a result. I know thats because Im being blessed for tithing. I love the way it works! I really believe its true that a person could bring themselves out of poverty by paying tithing due to the blessings. My work has been awesome! And I would have never thought I could have been promoted so quickly! It really does work!

[Guest mamacat]

wow -- that was awesome a-train...excellent answer and instruction.

you have so inspired me. thank you. now i know i can do this. :)

thanks to you also CK, we don't watch tv in our house though, so....no hdtv for us, what exactly is that anyway?....haha...i'm not technologically modern i suppose, i'm not that sure about what an mp3 player even does.

we do watch movies however; that actually was another area of strange change for me....one that i wasn't aware of 'til recently....that i'm not supposed to watch movies above a PG rating? am working on it. :)

now if i could just get my son's dad to stop bringing him adult movies.... the last he brought was 'Hellboy'....and i don't even want that word circulating in our house, much less the fearsome theme of the movie....now my babe is even more scared of 'monsters', though he asks to watch the movie daily. he says i'm 'sheltering' my son too much, but he's only 4! i had bad dreams after watching Hellboy.

is that a bad movie? is it suitable even for adults?

well, these discussions send my thoughts in all different directions...thanks again for the great information and feedback.

love, mamacat

[Guest Username-Removed]

wow -- that was awesome a-train...excellent answer and instruction.

you have so inspired me. thank you. now i know i can do this. :)

thanks to you also CK, we don't watch tv in our house though, so....no hdtv for us, what exactly is that anyway?....haha...i'm not technologically modern i suppose, i'm not that sure about what an mp3 player even does.

we do watch movies however; that actually was another area of strange change for me....one that i wasn't aware of 'til recently....that i'm not supposed to watch movies above a PG rating? am working on it. :)

now if i could just get my son's dad to stop bringing him adult movies.... the last he brought was 'Hellboy'....and i don't even want that word circulating in our house, much less the fearsome theme of the movie....now my babe is even more scared of 'monsters', though he asks to watch the movie daily. he says i'm 'sheltering' my son too much, but he's only 4! i had bad dreams after watching Hellboy.

is that a bad movie? is it suitable even for adults?

well, these discussions send my thoughts in all different directions...thanks again for the great information and feedback.

love, mamacat

Get cable with Parental Controls - Locks everything by channel number, TV rating or Moving rating. They got packages that are cheap for families now too. Free extra boxes too depending on what part of the nation you are in.

[Guest mamacat]

nice answer and inspiration Word ~ i love your enthusiasm.

the words of everyone here give me such a feeling of even further devotion to living my life as purposefully as possible. thank you again so much....i love the effort you have put forth to help me understand.

Get cable with Parental Controls - Locks everything by channel number, TV rating or Moving rating. They got packages that are cheap for families now too. Free extra boxes too depending on what part of the nation you are in.

oh, well, we try to avoid tv/cable, etc altogether...trying to limit our movie watching as well. next is computer games, though lots of these are quite educational. homeschooling has to be much more than multi-media driven.

thanks though!