The Lectures on Faith

[Just_A_Guy]

I'm afraid I led out on a bit of a threadjack to Finrock's recent "The Spirit of God" thread. Rather than pursuing this particular issue there, I'd like to respond to some of Skalenfehl's comments (particularly this post) re the Lectures on Faith in this thread.

Some observations in response to that post:

Not only the prophet of the restoration has held himself accountable to God and to the membership, but the publishing committee alongside him, namely Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Ridgon and F.G. Williams.

Sure. And to for what did they hold themselves accountable for? The entire text of the book, not just the Lectures on Faith.

That includes quite a lot. It includes, for example, Section CL (150), entitled "marriage", which contains this gem:

. . . we believe that all marriages solemnized in this Church of Latter Day Saints, should be solemnized in a public meeting . . . .

Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.

(It's on page 251 of the 1835 edition, image 259 on the Joseph Smith Papers website).

Was that correct? If so, how does one explain D&C 132 (polygamy)? How does one explain the practice of temple marriages, which are certainly not done in public?

The entire membership sustained it. But what should be of greater import is that Joseph Smith was the senior committee member. Joseph Smith presented the finalized Lectures On Faith as "doctrines of salvation."

Er, not quite. He presented them as "embracing the doctrines of salvation". Canon is not truth. Canon contains truth. The latter is unalterable; the former is not. That distinction is important.

Any falsehoods would have been corrected by Joseph by revelation.

. . . or, by his successors. And they face an interesting choice, when parts of a canonized text are superseded by further revelation. The very word "canon" means "measuring line"; it sets the standard for the teaching of the Church as it stands at that particular time. So what do you do with facially incorrect canon--stand by it and perpetuate the error, substitute a redacted version into the canon, or just relegate the whole thing to a sort of "Mormon-apocrypha-limbo"?

Then in 1921 a committee decided to remove them.

A committee of apostles, yes. That word was curiously absent from your entire post. Why?

It is obvious that the committee in 1921 erred. . . But it makes no sense otherwise for them to declare that the Lectures on Faith were never presented to nor accepted by the church.

The committee's statement, as quoted by Alexander, doesn't say that the lectures were never presented to or accepted by the Church; it says that they were never presented "as being anything otherwise than theological lectures or lessons". That is absolutely true, and it harks back to the 1835 edition's preface's own description of the Lectures.

There is no doubt in my mind that Lectures On Faith should have remained part of canonized scripture.

*shrug* Okay. Ten Presiding High Priests of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and fifty-six apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ (the 1st Pres/Q of 12 as constituted in 1921, and their successors), all fifty-six of whom were sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, disagree with you. That apparently includes Elder McConkie, who was ideally placed to get the LoF back into the canon in 1981 if he thought doing so was appropriate.

Without them, our minds have been darkened.

We are not without them, except through our own sloth.

Had they remained canonized, every officer of the church, even all members from the greatest to the least would have at the very least been aware of their existence.

Just like every Mormon is aware that Joseph Smith was a polygamist? Just like every Mormon knows there's such a thing as a Second Comforter?

. . . they do not in any way contradict the rest of the canonized scripture, especially the Doctrine & Covenants as we have them even today.

Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?

A. Two: the Father and the Son.

. . .

Q. What is the Father?

A. He is a personage of glory and of power.

. . .

Q. What is the Son?

A. First, he is a personage of tabernacle.

. . .

Q. Do the Father and the Son possess the same mind?

A. They do.

. . .

Q. What is this mind?

A. The Holy Spirit.

. . .

Q. Do the Father, Son and Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead?

A. They do.

. . .

Q. Does the foregoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation?

A. It does.

[skalenfehl]

I appreciate and respect your position. In my lengthy post, it was simply my object to bring to light the issue regarding the exclusion of the LoF. I have my convictions and all the other issues have no bearing on the matter. I understand the lectures. I accept them. I am accountable to God for my understanding of them. I have done my homework and am still dong my homework. Regarding Polygamy, etc, that is another matter in and of itself. Perhaps some day soon, I will study it out for myself, tracing all histories back to their sources, if possible. The Spirit has borne witness to me while studying the LoF in my mind. That suffices me.

Originally Posted by Lectures on Faith, Lecture 5th

Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?

A. Two: the Father and the Son.

. . .

Q. What is the Father?

A. He is a personage of glory and of power.

. . .

Q. What is the Son?

A. First, he is a personage of tabernacle.

. . .

Q. Do the Father and the Son possess the same mind?

A. They do.

. . .

Q. What is this mind?

A. The Holy Spirit.

. . .

Q. Do the Father, Son and Holy Spirit constitute the Godhead?

A. They do.

. . .

Q. Does the foregoing account of the Godhead lay a sure foundation for the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation?

A. It does.

While there are two personages in the Godhead, it is clear in verse one that the Godhead consists of three members:

We shall, in this lecture, speak of the Godhead: we mean the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We must therefore reconcile our understanding of personages with Joseph Smith's understanding of personages. Joseph Smith also goes on to clarify the third member of the Godhead, namely the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost, as we normally say and write today. So either you are right and Joseph Smith is wrong, or Joseph is wrong and you are correct. Personally speaking, I take no issue with Joseph Smith's work here.

The questions you raise are valid and things that I recommend you take to the Lord. I cannot prove anything to you. It doesn't work that way. Likewise you cannot prove anything to me. Only God can prove anything to each of us individually. The rest is anecdotal and second hand observation. I can bear my testimony to you, but that's as far as it goes. Let God teach you and the Spirit confirm. Only then can you reconcile your understanding with the Lord's as it should be. That is all I can do with what you have presented above.

[ElectofGod]

Er, not quite. He presented them as "embracing the doctrines of salvation". Canon is not truth. Canon contains truth. The latter is unalterable; the former is not. That distinction is important.

According to this than. I must question everything that has been made cannon. For it all can be alterable, false, incomplete, misleading, so everything the prophet, apostles gives us could be false. Thus why we must follow Christ and the holy spirit and none else.

Anyways,

Since its a new thread,

The LOF are a manual on how to part the veil of unbelief. The sacrifice and knowledge that is required to gain salvation. They are eternally true.

[Finrock]

While there are two personages in the Godhead, it is clear in verse one that the Godhead consists of three members:

We must therefore reconcile our understanding of personages with Joseph Smith's understanding of personages. Joseph Smith also goes on to clarify the third member of the Godhead, namely the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost, as we normally say and write today. So either you are right and Joseph Smith is wrong, or Joseph is wrong and you are correct. Personally speaking, I take no issue with Joseph Smith's work here.

The questions you raise are valid and things that I recommend you take to the Lord. I cannot prove anything to you. It doesn't work that way. Likewise you cannot prove anything to me. Only God can prove anything to each of us individually. The rest is anecdotal and second hand observation. I can bear my testimony to you, but that's as far as it goes. Let God teach you and the Spirit confirm. Only then can you reconcile your understanding with the Lord's as it should be. That is all I can do with what you have presented above.

I was looking at other usage of the term personage:

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—

2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

There is a connection between personage and "flesh and bones". Notice that the spirits of just men are not described as personages.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

The two personages here, we know are God the Father and Jesus Christ who both had bodies of flesh and bones when they appeared to Joseph Smith.

30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

Moroni had a body of flesh and bones. Another connection between personage and flesh and bones.

Now there is this usage from D&C 130:

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

If I accept the connection between personage and flesh and bones, then "personage of spirit" is the opposite of "personage". The Spirit has a body but not a body of flesh and bones.

Given this understanding we can re-examine the questions:

Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?

A. Two: the Father and the Son.

If personages means persons with bodies of flesh and bones, then there are only two personages in the Godhead. There are only two members of the Godhead who have bodies of flesh and bones.

Q. What is the Father?

A. He is a personage of glory and of power.

If personage means "person with body of flesh and bones", then the Father is a personage of glory and of power. He is a flesh and bones person of glory and of power.

-Finrock

Edited October 31, 2013 by Finrock

[skalenfehl]

Furthermore:

13. Q—Do the Father and the Son possess the same mind?

A—They do. “I [Christ] can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me” (John 5:30). “For I [Christ] came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me” (John 6:38). “I [Christ] and my Father are one” (John 10:30).

14. Q—What is this mind?

A—The Holy Spirit. “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me [Christ],” (John 15:26). “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts” (Gal 4:6).

"He shall testify of me."

Consider the following scripture in 1 Nephi 11

1 For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot.

2 And the Spirit said unto me: Behold, what desirest thou?

3 And I said: I desire to behold the things which my father saw.

4 And the Spirit said unto me: Believest thou that thy father saw the tree of which he hath spoken?

5 And I said: Yea, thou knowest that I believe all the words of my father.

6 And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired.

7 And behold this thing shall be given unto thee for a sign, that after thou hast beheld the tree which bore the fruit which thy father tasted, thou shalt also behold a man descending out of heaven, and him shall ye witness; and after ye have witnessed him ye shall bear record that it is the Son of God.

8 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me: Look! And I looked and beheld a tree; and it was like unto the tree which my father had seen; and the beauty thereof was far beyond, yea, exceeding of all beauty; and the whiteness thereof did exceed the whiteness of the driven snow.

9 And it came to pass after I had seen the tree, I said unto the Spirit: I behold thou hast shown unto me the tree which is precious above all.

10 And he said unto me: What desirest thou?

11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

Nephi exemplifies Joseph Smith's explanation of the Comforter, which testified of the coming of the Son of God. Thereafter, Nephi is left alone, the heavens open up and an angel now begins to instruct Nephi. Before, however, it was the Holy Spirit that received Nephi and praised the most High God and then distinguished between Him and His Son, who Nephi believed. Verse six is a very telling exclamation. This is very different than the bro. of Jared's visit from the pre-mortal Jesus Christ, who specifically identifies Himself and explains why He does not yet have a body of flesh:

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

I find it interesting and fitting that in Nephi's account, the Spirit is capitalized as it should be, whereas in the bro. of Jared's account (as recorded by Moroni), Jesus Christ's spirit is not. There is a distinction here.