Do Mormons Believe God Was Once a Man?

[jinc1019]

The title says it all.

If this is true, could someone elaborate? Also, could the question be answered: If God was once a man, who made God?

[Just_A_Guy]

The title says it all.

If this is true, could someone elaborate?

This is one of those non-canonical ideas within Mormonism. That said: I agree with it.

Also, could the question be answered: If God was once a man, who made God?

If you'll pardon the irreverence: It's Godfathers, all the way down.

I have a sneaking suspicion you'd love this thread. :)

[jinc1019]

This is one of those non-canonical ideas within Mormonism. That said: I agree with it.

If you'll pardon the irreverence: It's Godfathers, all the way down.

I have a sneaking suspicion you'd love this thread. :)

It was very interesting yes!

However, I still don't quite understand the position. On the one hand, it sounds like Mormons definitively state God is the sole creator of the universe, but on the other hand, it seems Mormons think God was also once a man? I can't understand the position. Why do Mormons believe it?

[Just_A_Guy]

Have you read the King Follett discourse? (It's a sermon Joseph Smith gave shortly after the death of a man named King Follett).

As for God creating the universe: I'll defer to that thread I linked to; but IIRC my thoughts at the time were that it depends on how expansive your definition of "universe" is.

[jinc1019]

I will read the sermon...I have not yet read it. To me, it doesn't really matter how expansive the universe is...basic logic says there has to be a creator at the beginning of time

[jerome1232]

I will read the sermon...I have not yet read it. To me, it doesn't really matter how expansive the universe is...basic logic says there has to be a creator at the beginning of time

It's not so simple. If time is linear, and there is a beginning and an end to it, then I'd say yes. But how can time go forever in one direction? If it has no end, how can it have a beginning?

I'm in the "it's turtles all the way down" camp, meaning *I* believe there is an infinite regression of god's. There is an infinite progression of god's. We have always existed. We will always exist. I'm not a huge super savvy theologian so my musings don't go much farther than that.

[bytebear]

Didn't Jesus create the Earth, and yet he was once a man.

[bytebear]

I will read the sermon...I have not yet read it. To me, it doesn't really matter how expansive the universe is...basic logic says there has to be a creator at the beginning of time

There is no beginning of time. There may be a beginning of this universe, but there are infinite universes.

[Guest]

Okay, okay, be careful here.

Anything outside of THIS God is non-canonical and are merely extrapolations. It may or may not be true.

As far as has been revealed, we have THIS Universe and THIS God. And as far as has been revealed, this God has always been God.

So, you are free to your own extrapolations on how he became God. God having once been man is as true or false as God being the Supreme Chancellor of a planet that may or may not be called Coruscant...

[rameumptom]

We believe that Jesus was once a mortal man, and that he is currently God with a resurrected and glorified body, similar to man's (or the body he had in mortality). We believe Jesus followed the pattern of his Father, which was to have gone through a mortal experience, so (as Paul teaches) he can know how to succor his people.

We believe there are many Creations, some created by our own Father/God, and others created by his fathers. As God followed in the footsteps of his fathers, so Jesus also followed by becoming a mortal.

Your question of where God began, if he was once mortal/had a father, is no more curious than asking what God was/is prior to creating the universe. Remember, the word "eternal" for the ancient Hebrews did not mean "forever", but meant a very large number or time.

In fact, ancient Hebrews (including Isaiah and other prophets) believed that God (El Elyon or Elohim) was not alone in the beginning, but had a divine council of sons (elohim), including Jehovah. This divine council was not really known by the scholars in Joseph Smith's time, but in the last 50 years more and more scholars are coming to accept it as fact. According to Methodist OT scholar Margaret Barker, early Christians believed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Angel of God's Presence, Jehovah. She continues that Jesus actually restored this concept of a divine council that was lost due to the Temple Reforms done in King Josiah's days.

Most scholars today will tell you that the God of the Bible was anthropomorphic (man-like), with emotions (love, jealousy, anger), and actual body parts (Moses, Isaiah, Stephen and others saw God). Some Christian scholars are now moving away from Thomas Aquinas' model of God as the "Unmoved Mover" to a model of God being the "Most Moved Mover". How can God love, and still be unmoved? If Jesus is unmoved, how can he weep or feel sorrow?

So, the Bible does give some good support to the beliefs Mormons have regarding God, Jesus and others in a divine council.

[jinc1019]

It's not so simple. If time is linear, and there is a beginning and an end to it, then I'd say yes. But how can time go forever in one direction? If it has no end, how can it have a beginning?

I'm in the "it's turtles all the way down" camp, meaning *I* believe there is an infinite regression of god's. There is an infinite progression of god's. We have always existed. We will always exist. I'm not a huge super savvy theologian so my musings don't go much farther than that.

I see...but for this to be true, the teaching that the God, the one in the Bible, is not really the chief architect of all that is, was, and ever will be...This, however, is absolutely a biblical principle held by all Christians and Jews since the very beginning of the faith.

[jinc1019]

We believe that Jesus was once a mortal man, and that he is currently God with a resurrected and glorified body, similar to man's (or the body he had in mortality). We believe Jesus followed the pattern of his Father, which was to have gone through a mortal experience, so (as Paul teaches) he can know how to succor his people.

We believe there are many Creations, some created by our own Father/God, and others created by his fathers. As God followed in the footsteps of his fathers, so Jesus also followed by becoming a mortal.

Your question of where God began, if he was once mortal/had a father, is no more curious than asking what God was/is prior to creating the universe. Remember, the word "eternal" for the ancient Hebrews did not mean "forever", but meant a very large number or time.

In fact, ancient Hebrews (including Isaiah and other prophets) believed that God (El Elyon or Elohim) was not alone in the beginning, but had a divine council of sons (elohim), including Jehovah. This divine council was not really known by the scholars in Joseph Smith's time, but in the last 50 years more and more scholars are coming to accept it as fact. According to Methodist OT scholar Margaret Barker, early Christians believed that Jesus was the Messiah, the Angel of God's Presence, Jehovah. She continues that Jesus actually restored this concept of a divine council that was lost due to the Temple Reforms done in King Josiah's days.

Most scholars today will tell you that the God of the Bible was anthropomorphic (man-like), with emotions (love, jealousy, anger), and actual body parts (Moses, Isaiah, Stephen and others saw God). Some Christian scholars are now moving away from Thomas Aquinas' model of God as the "Unmoved Mover" to a model of God being the "Most Moved Mover". How can God love, and still be unmoved? If Jesus is unmoved, how can he weep or feel sorrow?

So, the Bible does give some good support to the beliefs Mormons have regarding God, Jesus and others in a divine council.

That's all very interesting to be sure.

[Guest]

I see...but for this to be true, the teaching that the God, the one in the Bible, is not really the chief architect of all that is, was, and ever will be...This, however, is absolutely a biblical principle held by all Christians and Jews since the very beginning of the faith.

It doesn't really contradict the principle... He is still the chief architect of all that is, was, and ever will be in our universe.

What we're extrapolating here is that this is not the only universe. Our brain is too limited in this mortal experience to grasp the idea of multiverse. Our brains always adjusts its thinking to make our known universe smaller when we think of another universe. Have you seen The One? I think of that when thinking of the idea of multiverse.

But, like I said... this is stuff that does not change the Christian belief of God's authority. You don't have to subscribe to the idea that there is anything outside our universe. It doesn't matter nor does it change the plan for your salvation.

[Guest]

We believe Jesus followed the pattern of his Father, which was to have gone through a mortal experience,

You believe that. Many other people believe that. But it's not core LDS doctrine.

[HiJolly]

As God is now, man may become >> this is clearly taught in scripture.

As man is now, God once was >> this is NOT clearly taught in scripture.

[jinc1019]

It doesn't really contradict the principle... He is still the chief architect of all that is, was, and ever will be in our universe.

What we're extrapolating here is that this is not the only universe. Our brain is too limited in this mortal experience to grasp the idea of multiverse. Our brains always adjusts its thinking to make our known universe smaller when we think of another universe. Have you seen The One? I think of that when thinking of the idea of multiverse.

But, like I said... this is stuff that does not change the Christian belief of God's authority. You don't have to subscribe to the idea that there is anything outside our universe. It doesn't matter nor does it change the plan for your salvation.

What makes you think there is more than just this universe? Is that in Mormon scriptures as well?

[jinc1019]

As God is now, man may become >> this is clearly taught in scripture.

As man is now, God once was >> this is NOT clearly taught in scripture.

Didn't Joseph Smith teach that though? Why do you say it's unclear?

[HiJolly]

Didn't Joseph Smith teach that though? Why do you say it's unclear?

Joseph's teaching on the subject does not rise to the level of Scripture, at least at the institutional level. There is a passage or two in the Bible that could be thought to touch upon the subject, but it is VERY unclear to most people.

[jinc1019]

Joseph's teaching on the subject does not rise to the level of Scripture, at least at the institutional level. There is a passage or two in the Bible that could be thought to touch upon the subject, but it is VERY unclear to most people.

Very good to know.

On a similar note, how do Mormons know when something Smith taught was on the level of scripture or not?

[HiJolly]

Very good to know.

On a similar note, how do Mormons know when something Smith taught was on the level of scripture or not?

On an institutional level, the previous link I provided explains it. Doctrine (or, scripture) is found in 3 places: the Scriptures; the official proclamations of the First Presidency; and the 13 articles of faith.

On a personal level, scripture is whatever the Holy Ghost attests to(this is found in the D&C). And that explains why we have so many personal viewpoints/ beliefs that don't agree with everyone else.

[jinc1019]

On an institutional level, the previous link I provided explains it. Doctrine (or, scripture) is found in 3 places: the Scriptures; the official proclamations of the First Presidency; and the 13 articles of faith.

On a personal level, scripture is whatever the Holy Ghost attests to(this is found in the D&C). And that explains why we have so many personal viewpoints/ beliefs that don't agree with everyone else.

I am a bit confused still (my Catholic background confuses the terms Mormons often use), are you saying the D&C is not binding institutional doctrine? I am not sure what you mean by "on a personal level"?

The scriptures are composed of the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C, correct?

[HiJolly]

I am a bit confused still (my Catholic background confuses the terms Mormons often use), are you saying the D&C is not binding institutional doctrine? I am not sure what you mean by "on a personal level"?

The scriptures are composed of the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C, correct?

The Doctrine & Covenants IS indeed binding doctrine for all the church. In it, this is said: Doctrine and Covenants 68:4Â*

And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the aHoly Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the bpower of God unto salvation.

But you see, this is at the individual level, person by person, for that is how the Holy Ghost testifies -- to the individual.

The scriptures are composed of the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C, correct?

...and the Bible, of course.

Edited November 8, 2013 by HiJolly

[rameumptom]

I see...but for this to be true, the teaching that the God, the one in the Bible, is not really the chief architect of all that is, was, and ever will be...This, however, is absolutely a biblical principle held by all Christians and Jews since the very beginning of the faith.

Actually that is a belief many Christians and Jews have, but isn't correct.

We have two versions of the Creation in the book of Genesis. Neither of the stories requires creation ex nihilo (God creating things from nothing). Instead, they suggest God is creating earth from stuff that is already there.

Then, we have Isaiah sharing an ancient Sumerian Epic, where God has to slay the Dragon/Leviathan/Chaos in order to bring Order into the world. This concept was obviously believed by the apostle John, who continued the tradition by again having the Dragon slain at the end of the World, when complete order would be established on earth.

LDS believe that matter is eternal along with God. Does probably does not create ex nihilo, but forms things from matter that already exists. Science tends to agree with the permanence of matter in some form. Even the Big Bang was a creation out of everything (and not the nothing that some Creationists claim). It may be that God began the Big Bang, but it occurred with matter that already existed in the form of a singularity.

[rameumptom]

Didn't Joseph Smith teach that though? Why do you say it's unclear?

Joseph DID teach it. The problem is, he only spoke of it on two occasions, the King Follett Discourse being the best known. Unfortunately, while he gave us much to ponder, he did not give a lot of details on how it all works. So, much of what is spoken of on the topic of God having been a man and has his own father, etc., is highly speculative.

That said, the Church still holds to the concept, even though we do not have additional revelation on it. In this year's Adult manual for Priesthood and Relief Society, President Lorenzo Snow is quoted saying the well known couplet: "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become". We have doctrine regarding man being saved and exalted, becoming like God and (as John the Revelator stated) being able to sit down on God's throne with him. However, beyond those two brief speeches by Joseph Smith and the example of Jesus, we do not have details on God once being man.

[jinc1019]

The Doctrine & Covenants IS indeed binding doctrine for all the church. In it, this is said: Doctrine and Covenants 68:4Â*

But you see, this is at the individual level, person by person, for that is how the Holy Ghost testifies -- to the individual.

...and the Bible, of course.

Thanks for clearing this up. I guess I became confused because I thought many of these issues were in the D&C...but I am assuming based on what you said that they are not. I am going to read through the D&C today if I get a chance.