Moroni & Other Resurrected Beings

[Seminarysnoozer]

YEs I think its semantics. I would not equate called or chosen in the context of that verse to priesthood.

I truly believe our eternal existence is a that twofold (ok one) calling. To save souls. To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

I loved this verse though! Its one of my favorite.

"on account of their exceeding faith and good works". I guess you could say we are choosen because of Good works. What are good works. Anything that "brings others unto christ" that heavenly Father asks us to do.

To the last part "are called with a holy calling, a preparatory redemption for such."

I find this the most fascinating sentences in the entire book of mormon. The holy calling came from that preparatory redemption. Otherwards because of their exceedingly great faith, they were allowed to have a holy calling. We could be called to hold the priesthood to help us if worthy.

John pontius talks about priesthood and callings so I won't derail the subject. Oath and the Covenant By John Pontius

As for the other posts, I think JUST_A_GUY question is one worthy asking.

What about Michael using priesthood power before receiving a body. Did that happen or not? If so, how did he get the priesthood?

[Traveler]

What about Michael using priesthood power before receiving a body. Did that happen or not? If so, how did he get the priesthood?

Seminarysnoozer - I would like to present another way of viewing things. You and I have discussed a different view before but I am not sure you have made the connection.

Most of us realize that there is a difference between that which is spiritual and that which is physical. Many of your posts deal with the difference - or the dual nature we have in this life. I have suggested the concept of integrated rather than dual. That is the idea of thinking not as two different natures in opposition but rather a integrated nature of different origins.

Instead of thinking of that which is spiritual separate from that which is physical - think of integrating the two so they are no longer separate. Thus we can come to a understanding that to be "whole" the spiritual and the physical must be integrated. Thus to confer the "whole" priesthood there must be a laying on of physical hands as well as spiritual conferring.

So it is that we are ordained to the priesthood in this life - and in the previous life we were only ordained to receive the priesthood. And so Michael was called of G-d in the previous spiritual state - but not by the physical laying on of hands. Being that Michael was not integrated (physical with spiritual) and could not exercise the priesthood as one so ordained in this life.

The Traveler

[ElectofGod]

Can one even be a G_d before they are exalted? Than how was Michael (El) a God?

The temple paints the picture of our path to Godhood (exaltation).

[james12]

What about Michael using priesthood power before receiving a body. Did that happen or not? If so, how did he get the priesthood?

If I may be given some freedom to conjecture I will give my thoughts. I believe that there are certain signs, certain ordinances which the great God of Heaven has setup which are eternal. If one desires to obtain the power of the priesthood, among other things, he must receive the signs.

"And again, God purposed I Himself that there should not be an eternal fullness until every dispensation should be fulfilled and gathered together in one, ...Therefore He set the ordinances to be the same forever and ever, and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them. ...God will not acknowledge that which He has not called, ordained, and chosen" (TPJS 168, italics added).

Moreover, in every estate we must receive these ordinances, these signs. In our first estate as spirit beings we had to receive these same ordinances. Now in our second estate we must again receive them. Michael progressed and received all the ordinances in his first estate. Having received these he was then required to obtain them in his second. At each estate growing in glory and power. And so it continues from one estate to another.

[ElectofGod]

If I may be given some freedom to conjecture I will give my thoughts. I believe that there are certain signs, certain ordinances which the great God of Heaven has setup which are eternal. If one desires to obtain the power of the priesthood, among other things, he must receive the signs.

Moreover, in every estate we must receive these ordinances, these signs. In our first estate as spirit beings we had to receive these same ordinances. Now in our second estate we must again receive them. Michael progressed and received all the ordinances in his first estate. Having received these he was then required to obtain them in his second. At each estate growing in glory and power. And so it continues from one estate to another.

Thanks for that quote! :)

I agree with this 100%.

I love the orson Hyde diagram, makes things simple.

The above diagram shows the order and unity of the kingdom of God. The eternal Father sits at the head, crowned King of kings and Lord of lords. Wherever the other lines meet, there sits a king and a priest unto God, bearing rule, authority, and dominion under the Father. He is one with the Father, because his kingdom is joined to his Father's and becomes part of it.

The most eminent and distinguished prophets who have laid down their lives for their testimony (Jesus among the rest), will be crowned at the head of the largest kingdoms under the Father, and will be one with Christ as Christ is one with his Father; for their kingdoms are all joined together, and such as do the will of the Father, the same are his mothers, sisters, and brothers. He that has been faithful over a few things, will be made ruler over many things; he that has been faithful over ten talents, shall have dominion over ten cities, and he that has been faithful over five talents, shall have dominion over five cities, and to every man will be given a kingdom and a dominion, according to his merit, powers, and abilities to govern and control. It will be seen by the above diagram that there are kingdoms of all sizes, an infinite variety to suit all grades of merit and ability. The chosen vessels unto God are the kings and priests that are placed at the head of these kingdoms. These have received their washings and anointings in the temple of God on this earth; they have been chosen, ordained, and anointed kings and priests, to reign as such in the resurrection of the just. Such as have not received the fulness of the priesthood, (for the fulness of the priesthood includes the authority of both king and priest) and have not been anointed and ordained in the temple of the Most High, may obtain salvation in the celestial kingdom, but not a celestial crown. Many are called to enjoy a celestial glory, yet few are chosen to wear a celestial crown, or rather, to be rulers in the celestial kingdom.

While this portion of eternity that we now live in, called time, continues, and while the other portions of eternity that we may hereafter dwell in, continue, those lines in the foregoing diagram, representing kingdoms, will continue to extend and be lengthened out; and thus, the increase of our kingdoms will increase the kingdom of our God, even as Daniel hath said: “of the increase of his kingdom and government there shall be no end.” All these kingdoms are one kingdom, and there is a King over kings, and a Lord over lords. There are Lords many, and Gods many, for they are called Gods to whom the word of God comes, and the word of God comes to all these kings and priests. But to our branch of the kingdom there is but one God, to whom we all owe the most perfect submission and loyalty; yet our God is just as subject to still higher intelligences, as we should be to him.

...These kingdoms, which are one kingdom, are designed to extend till they not only embrace this world, but every other planet that rolls in the blue vault of heaven. Thus will all things be gathered in one during the dispensation of the fulness of times, and the Saints will not only possess the earth, but all things else, for, says Paul, “All things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come: all are yours, and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's”

(Orson Hyde, “A Diagram of the Kingdom of God,” Millennial Star 9 [15 January 1847]: 23-24).

Orson Hyde's Diagram of the Kingdom of God

According to the teachings that the Prophet gave in private (but which he only hinted at in this discourse [13 August 1843]), to be heir to Abraham's promise that he would head an innumerable posterity, each individual and his children must be sealed for time and eternity. If this sealing was performed, he taught, the covenant relationship would then continue throughout eternity. The Prophet taught, moreover, that such a patriarchal priesthood of kings and priests would have to be established by sealing children and parents back through Abraham to Adam in order to fulfill the mission of Elijah (Malachi 4:5-6). When this was accomplished, the order within the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom would then be eternally set. Probably no clearer statement of Joseph's theology regarding this concept can be found than what is given in an editorial by Orson Hyde. The following diagram began the editorial after which came the text.

Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph, compiled and edited by Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook [Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1980], 297.)

Edited December 4, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminarysnoozer - I would like to present another way of viewing things. You and I have discussed a different view before but I am not sure you have made the connection.

Most of us realize that there is a difference between that which is spiritual and that which is physical. Many of your posts deal with the difference - or the dual nature we have in this life. I have suggested the concept of integrated rather than dual. That is the idea of thinking not as two different natures in opposition but rather a integrated nature of different origins.

Instead of thinking of that which is spiritual separate from that which is physical - think of integrating the two so they are no longer separate. Thus we can come to a understanding that to be "whole" the spiritual and the physical must be integrated. Thus to confer the "whole" priesthood there must be a laying on of physical hands as well as spiritual conferring.

So it is that we are ordained to the priesthood in this life - and in the previous life we were only ordained to receive the priesthood. And so Michael was called of G-d in the previous spiritual state - but not by the physical laying on of hands. Being that Michael was not integrated (physical with spiritual) and could not exercise the priesthood as one so ordained in this life.

The Traveler

In this life we remain as separate entities. Yes, the goal is to be integrated but in our current condition that is not the case. Elder Melvin J. Ballard (1873–1939) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “all the assaults that the enemy of our souls will make to capture us will be through the flesh, because it is made up of the unredeemed earth, and he has power over the elements of the earth. The approach he makes to us will be through the lusts, the appetites, the ambitions of the flesh. All the help that comes to us from the Lord to aid us in this struggle will come to us through the spirit that dwells within this mortal body. So these two mighty forces are operating upon us through these two channels." Two channels = not as integrated as we would like.

We know God is a being of both flesh and spirit. The priesthood is the power to act in Gods name. For that power to pass to one that does not have a body yet, means that at some point in the chain of authority it had to be passed from one who has a body (God) to one who does not have a body (like Michael). If he was called of God, which you stated, God having a body, why do you say that he was not called by the physical laying on of hands? How do you know that?

[Speakzeasy]

The priesthood is the power to act in Gods name.

The priesthood is an power-of-attorney given to man by G_d to act on G_ds behalf. It as a great deal of functionality to act in G_ds behalf here upon the earth.

Fore-ordination would serve no purpose if the priesthood could be used in the same capacity in the preexistence. It is given to mortals to bring to pass to covenants that G_d, the father, made to the righteous of remnant of the house of Israel. It is in that capacity that the priesthood is bound and to that purpose.

The priesthood could not have been given to a person in the preexistence for the purpose of fulfilling those covenants. The covenants that G_d that father made with the righteous remnant of the house of Israel, through father Abraham, can only be accomplished here upon the earth, where the covenants are to be fulfilled.

What point is there in those covenants being fulfilled in heaven?

There is an instance in the Book of Revelation were authority to act here upon the earth is give to twelve individuals while in heaven, it can be found in the book Revelation:

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads (Rev. 12:3)

The twelve individuals were not given the priesthood. It is interesting that they received their authority to act before they were given a title to their office. The the ten horns that are identified with them were given their authority when they were given title to the their office:

1 AND I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (Rev. 13:1)

The ten horns did not receive the priesthood.

I do not know what occurred to allow the twelve heads to be given authority (Rev. 12:3 does not give the information). However, the authority given to them is for the purpose of bringing forth the covenants that G_d made to the righteous remnant of the house of Israel.

The primary difference may simply be that of whether or not one is to receive the priesthood.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Speakzeasy
Clarity; Rev. verses

[Speakzeasy]

Moroni & Other Resurrected Beings

1) Where are they now, as far as their dwelling. Are they in the Spirit World? Here on Earth? With God?

It confuses me because they are resurrected beings, but I have no idea where they reside until the Second Coming.

2) Also, WHY do you think they were resurrected? (The purpose).

Thanks for everything :)

I am in agreement with Vort:

Asking where resurrected folks dwell is assuming a depth of understanding that, as far as I know, no one in mortality has.

There is a verse of scripture that gives the idea that the righteous, before Jesus death, were resurrected:

50 ¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many (Matt. 27:50-53)

The event of these people being resurrected as it appears in Matt. 27:52 seems to be a little reversed from the normal idea that Jesus is the first to be resurrected.

However, Matt. 27:52 seems to be the of the resurrection that is spoken of by Alma:

15 Now, there are some that have understood that this state of happiness and this state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection. Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken.

16 And behold, again it hath been spoken, that there is a first resurrection, a resurrection of all those who have been, or who are, or who shall be, down to the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

17 Now, we do not suppose that this first resurrection, which is spoken of in this manner, can be the resurrection of the souls and their consignation to happiness or misery. Ye cannot suppose that this is what it meaneth.

18 Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but it meaneth the reuniting of the soul with the body, of those from the days of Adam down to the resurrection of Christ.

19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.

20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.

21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works (Alma 40:15-21)

We usually think of the first resurrection as being that resurrection John speaks of:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6)

So the resurrection of the righteous took place at the time Jesus resurrection would apply to those that died before Jesus, not after. It cannot apply to the unrighteous, there was no day of judgement.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Speakzeasy

[Seminarysnoozer]

The priesthood is an power-of-attorney given to man by G_d to act on G_ds behalf. It as a great deal of functionality to act in G_ds behalf here upon the earth.

Fore-ordination would serve no purpose if the priesthood could be used in the same capacity in the preexistence. It is given to mortals to bring to pass to covenants that G_d, the father, made to the righteous of remnant of the house of Israel. It is in that capacity that the priesthood is bound and to that purpose.

The priesthood could not have been given to a person in the preexistence for the purpose of fulfilling those covenants. The covenants that G_d that father made with the righteous remnant of the house of Israel, through father Abraham, can only be accomplished here upon the earth, where the covenants are to be fulfilled.

What point is there in those covenants being fulfilled in heaven?

There is an instance in the Book of Revelation were authority to act here upon the earth is give to twelve individuals while in heaven, it can be found in the book Revelation:

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads (Rev. 12:3)

The twelve individuals were not given the priesthood. It is interesting that they received their authority to act before they were given a title to their office. The the ten horns that are identified with them were given their authority when they were given title to the their office:

1 AND I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (Rev. 13:1)

The ten horns did not receive the priesthood.

I do not know what occurred to allow the twelve heads to be given authority (Rev. 12:3 does not give the information). However, the authority given to them is for the purpose of bringing forth the covenants that G_d made to the righteous remnant of the house of Israel.

The primary difference may simply be that of whether or not one is to receive the priesthood.

You don't consider the passing of the First Estate as a covenant? Didn't we, as part of passing the First Estate, agree with God that we would come here to be tested and if we do what we said we would that we could have a chance to be with God again? That isn't a covenant?

Also, I never said they were the same capacity (priesthood authority). The comment was related to the priesthood power that Adam and likely others used to assist in the construction of this world. Did they have it (in any capacity) or not? If they had it, in any capacity, how did they get it?