The spiritual experiences of others.

[Traveler]

A lot of us - and my family is a perfect example of this - are following the best path. But they are in the Catholic Church while doing so keeping the commandments they made as Catholics. Nobody can convince me that they are not following the promptings of the Holy Spirit as it applies to their lives. I've been a Catholic most of my life and I can assure you, the same Holy Spirit I followed as a Catholic is the same Holy Spirit I follow now.

My father enriched many many many lives in his Catholic devotion. Although I am sure he would have been able to do so as an LDS, that was not the path he was given. He became aware of the Book of Mormon only in the last 10 years of his life - he did not have the time it takes for him to be able to study it and find a testimony of its truth when for 60 years of his life he had many many many spiritual experiences as a Catholic. The last 10 years of his life was better served enriching many more lives instead of struggling to conform to new covenants and being in conflict with my mother.

Jesus is the Christ. It does not make it false just because a Catholic taught it to you.

Perhaps the best example in scripture is in the parable of the Good Samaritan. In this example those who should have an advantage because of covenant were not being led by the spirit to direct their lives in G-dly paths.

However, in the greater context of this particular thread - I do not believe the spirit directs persons of different faiths into paths of opposition. In particular I do not believe the spirit tells one person that the Book of Mormon is true scripture from G-d that contains the fullness of the Gospel and then tells another person (because of separate religious circumstance) that it is not true scripture from G-d and that no more fullness can be understood by them in reading and pondering the text than if they set it aside and ignore it.

The point is that there is one true G-d - and one faith, one baptism and one way of G-d. If someone is directed by the spirit to follow one path in one religion as the fullness of truth - and another is directed by the spirit to follow a different path of a different religion as the fullness of truth - one is being misdirected. In this it is not a question of what is okay or permissible but what is the better way. The statement that someone can do a greater good than following the one true path is the doctrine I call into question. I do not believe it to be true.

If a greater good can be obtained following another way or path - then the current path is not the true path of G-d. This is not to say there cannot be Good Samaritans in other religions - and perhaps even Good Samaritan atheists. It is to say what-ever good there is in any person - it is enhanced, increased and made greater by the spirit when following the one true path serving the one true G-d.

The Traveler

[Guest]

Perhaps the best example in scripture is in the parable of the Good Samaritan. In this example those who should have an advantage because of covenant were not being led by the spirit to direct their lives in G-dly paths.

However, in the greater context of this particular thread - I do not believe the spirit directs persons of different faiths into paths of opposition. In particular I do not believe the spirit tells one person that the Book of Mormon is true scripture from G-d that contains the fullness of the Gospel and then tells another person (because of separate religious circumstance) that it is not true scripture from G-d and that no more fullness can be understood by them in reading and pondering the text than if they set it aside and ignore it.

The point is that there is one true G-d - and one faith, one baptism and one way of G-d. If someone is directed by the spirit to follow one path in one religion as the fullness of truth - and another is directed by the spirit to follow a different path of a different religion as the fullness of truth - one is being misdirected. In this it is not a question of what is okay or permissible but what is the better way. The statement that someone can do a greater good than following the one true path is the doctrine I call into question. I do not believe it to be true.

If a greater good can be obtained following another way or path - then the current path is not the true path of G-d. This is not to say there cannot be Good Samaritans in other religions - and perhaps even Good Samaritan atheists. It is to say what-ever good there is in any person - it is enhanced, increased and made greater by the spirit when following the one true path serving the one true G-d.

The Traveler

The problem I see with your analysis is you imply that the Holy Spirit talks to us in conversations like this:

Person: "Is the Book of Mormon true?"

Holy Spirit (in voice): "Yes, my son, the Book of Mormon is true."

That's not how the Holy Spirit talks to people - or if he talks like that to some, it's not how he talks to everyone. This is how the Holy Spirit talked to me:

First Phase:

Me: "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name... if it be thy will, please let me gain understanding if the Book of Mormon is true. May Thy will be done, Amen."

Holy Spirit: (nothing comes to my mind, just my brain getting impressions like, well, Ron Hubbard wrote Dianetics and made a religion out of it... and Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings... he could write a fantastic story like those in the Book of Mormon and sell it as scripture).

Me: "Well, I guess it's not true".

Years later, I sat on the beach reading The Great Apostasy and it pretty much went like this:

Second Phase:

Me: "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name... if it be thy will, please let me gain understanding if the Great Apostasy truly happened. May Thy will be done, Amen."

Holy Spirit: (my brain cleared - this is hard for me to explain but this is exactly how I know it is the Spirit and I've experienced this all through my life, I don't get that burning in the bossom or whatever - and flashes of everything I have ever questioned in Catholic history and Philippine history regarding the Catholic Church came to my mind. It was one right after the other and I sat there on the beach just pondering. Of course I know that history long ago - we studied it in Catholic school even. But, on that beach, I went through everything I know and saw it from a different perspective.

So then, a few more years after that (after gaining brain-clearing experiences with things like Eternal Family, and going through a lot of stuff like Joseph's many child wives and already married wives, and polygamy in general, and LDS racism and Massacres, etc), I went through this experience:

Third Phase:

Me: "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name... if it be thy will, please let me gain understanding if the Book of Mormon is true. May Thy will be done, Amen."

Holy Spirit: (my brain cleared and the Book of Mormon fell into place in the puzzle)

Me: "The Book of Mormon is true. Joseph Smith must be a prophet."

And a few more months after that, out of the clear blue - no planning or anything, I asked to be baptized. So basically, I attended Catholic Church every single Sunday ever since I was born, and the next Sunday, I attended the LDS Church as a baptized Mormon. There was no inactive period...

But see, there was nothing that compelled me to go to the 2nd phase above. I was content with the first answer. And, I am 100% certain that the only reason I got to the 2nd phase is because I have gained enough experience that prepared me for the answer to the 2nd phase. Otherwise, I would get a nothing answer again.

And hence my testimony - it is better to stay where you KNOW for sure you are following God's path than to ask to be baptized LDS when one is not truly converted. Those who are not truly converted asks to be baptized then a few weeks later quits going to Church. The covenant becomes a stumbling block on them as it becomes a heavy burden of guilt that they have to go through a painful time to resolve. My path, in my opinion, is the easier path. Line upon line, precept upon precept until the truth was undeniable and then I got baptized, turning my back on my entire family to follow truth.

And my testimony is firm - the Holy Spirit guided me through my entire life - even through the Catholic Church. Some people mis-interpret what the Spirit is trying to tell them and they go other places but this doesn't matter because as long as they're constantly seeking guidance, the Spirit will provide course corrections.

The Holy Spirit is always there to lead us through our own unique journey to God. It doesn't matter what religion we belong in - or even that we are not religious, even atheists - what is important is that we sincerely, humbly, honestly, and constantly, seek for that light of truth all the days of our lives and act on it. The light of Christ is with us - even those who are born in a community without the knowledge of a God; they're journey is farther than those who are born Catholic but they are still born with that light of Christ and as long as they seek for that light of truth, they will find it, if not in this life, then the next.

Edited January 2, 2014 by anatess

[Just_A_Guy]

If a greater good can be obtained following another way or path - then the current path is not the true path of G-d. This is not to say there cannot be Good Samaritans in other religions - and perhaps even Good Samaritan atheists. It is to say what-ever good there is in any person - it is enhanced, increased and made greater by the spirit when following the one true path serving the one true G-d.

Traveler, I'd be interested to see you engage the example of Thomas Kane that I offered earlier.

[Traveler]

Traveler, I'd be interested to see you engage the example of Thomas Kane that I offered earlier.

Not sure what your point is - do you believe that G-d's plans to move the saints west was 100% dependent in Thomas not being baptized in order to acomplish G-d works? Just because it happend the way it did does not mean that G-d could not acomplish his ends otherwise.

Perhaps you can help we with a scripture that indicates repentance and baptism is not necessary or good for certain individuals salvation.

I can understand good coming about by many ways but - the atonement is necessary for salvation (including resurrection). But if we mesure good by this life only without accout for eternity - then yes - the good that people do outside the covenants of G-d can seem to have equal importance - just not in the eternal perspective.

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

Not sure what your point is - do you believe that G-d's plans to move the saints west was 100% dependent in Thomas not being baptized in order to acomplish G-d works?

Just because it happend the way it did does not mean that G-d could not acomplish his ends otherwise.

No one is arguing otherwise. But perhaps you might allow me to ask you three questions in return:

1) Do you believe God works through people;

2) Are you aware of exactly what Kane did, and how he did it; and

3) How, specifically, would Kane's hypothetical Church membership have enhanced or diminished Kane's abilities to do what he actually did?

Kane filled very specific and very useful roles, and his status as a non-Mormon made that possible. Is your position that Kane's conversion would have obviated the need for these roles (i.e. that Kane's timely conversion would have prevented the Nauvoo expulsion), or is it that God had someone waiting in the wings who could have done Kane's job better if Kane had only gotten out of the way?

I can understand good coming about by many ways but - the atonement is necessary for salvation (including resurrection). But if we mesure good by this life only without accout for eternity - then yes - the good that people do outside the covenants of G-d can seem to have equal importance - just not in the eternal perspective.

Then it would have better suited God's overall purposes for Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Hancock, et al. to have lived in the nineteenth century as Church members, than to have lived in the eighteenth century as non-members. Correct?

While acknowledging the general rule that conversion in this life is better, we still must grapple with this fundamental question: If God in His wisdom can place an individual on the earth in such a way as to make conversion a physical impossibility in this life, why can't He also place someone in such a way as to make their conversion physically possible but also impose a "not now" or "not yet" restriction until His purposes have been fully accomplished?

Edited January 3, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Traveler]

Let me tell a story. As a missionary I served for a time in Bend Oregon. There was at the time I served there a minister that had a large congregation and radio ministry. He also loved the LDS elders and invited us to his home for meals and discussions. This minister gave us more referrals than did the LDS members at the time. We even baptized a family of his congregation in his baptismal fount with him attending. The reason was because our baptismal fount was not working at the time. This minister claimed to be converted to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon but was convinced he could more good for the church as a non-member. This seemed to be so at the time.

While I was serving in this area Elder LeGrand Richards visited our mission and I was given the assignment to drive Brother Richards across part of our mission with my companion. This gave me and my companion a few hours of personal time to talk with an apostle of G-d. It was a great honor and I intended to make the best of it. During our conversation this minister and his work became part of our discussion. I used this example to ask Elder Richards if it is not better that some individuals are not baptized in order to help in unique ways with the L-rd’s work that could not happen otherwise.

Now we may want to diminish his apostolic witness to me in this manner because he was so known for his missionary zeal - but I do not think it good. He was very stern with me and stated with all assuredly that whatever good could be accomplished by any individual in this world to bring souls unto Christ and preserve the work of G-d that is not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that through the gift and power of the Holy Ghost they could do much much more. That whatever G-d can accomplish with devoted individuals in the world - he can accomplish so much greater things through them that receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And that I, above all else, must sound that witness clearly to the world at all times and in all places. That G-d would that all men and women everywhere repent and be baptized.

I have had this understanding re-taught to me by the spirit many times since - that even though each individual has agency to do whatever good or evil they choose and that G-d can accomplish his purposes to some degree - but that it is the mind and will of G-d that all repent and be baptized to receive of his fullness which is the very intent of all his works - and that a saint of G-d that receives his spirit will likewise give the same witness and invitation to all - with no exception to repent and to be baptized because nothing else is justified before him - NOTHING -- EVER!!!

The Traveler

[Guest]

I have had this understanding re-taught to me by the spirit many times since - that even though each individual has agency to do whatever good or evil they choose and that G-d can accomplish his purposes to some degree - but that it is the mind and will of G-d that all repent and be baptized to receive of his fullness which is the very intent of all his works - and that a saint of G-d that receives his spirit will likewise give the same witness and invitation to all - with no exception to repent and to be baptized because nothing else is justified before him - NOTHING -- EVER!!!

The Traveler

Sure. And I've heard the same exact words with the same exact vehemence told to me by several nuns and priests of the Catholic faith. Now, go duke it out with them and tell them your Spirit is better than their Spirit.

In my opinion, this is people trying to bend God to their understanding instead of God doing His will through people.

Thy Will Be Done. Period. In whatever capacity that will is brought to pass. I have no sense of arrogance or pride that I'm better than the nuns just because I'm LDS. My only advantage is that I have a testimony of the restored gospel and all the doctrines that have been restored currently absent from the Catholic faith. I am 100% certain that there are many many many truths that I have no testimony of that the Nuns do. We're all on the same journey in our own unique capacity to receive and accept and act on our individual testimonies.

Edited January 3, 2014 by anatess

[Traveler]

Sure. And I've heard the same exact words with the same exact vehemence told to me by several nuns and priests of the Catholic faith. Now, go duke it out with them and tell them your Spirit is better than their Spirit.

In my opinion, this is people trying to bend God to their understanding instead of God doing His will through people.

Thy Will Be Done. Period. In whatever capacity that will is brought to pass. I have no sense of arrogance or pride that I'm better than the nuns just because I'm LDS. My only advantage is that I have a testimony of the restored gospel and all the doctrines that have been restored currently absent from the Catholic faith. I am 100% certain that there are many many many truths that I have no testimony of that the Nuns do. We're all on the same journey in our own unique capacity to receive and accept and act on our individual testimonies.

Your advantage is the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Traveler

[ztodd]

Your advantage is the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Traveler

Hi Traveler, hi Anatess, hi everybody! I haven't been on here for a while... is the forum still a great and useful place doing good things? :)

I sometimes forget that there is an added light that we have as members of the Church. I know that it is a real light- that it's not just something we say we have; it's something very real that we really do have, that does set up apart from others. Folks who have not received that Gift don't know what it is that they're missing. And sometimes we who have received it do not appreciate what it is that we have... and sometimes don't recognize it. Of course I include myself in that.

I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant - I certainly don't mean it to be that way.

Of course all people can still feel the power of the Holy Ghost and be led by God if they are humble.

[Just_A_Guy]

Now we may want to diminish his apostolic witness to me in this manner because he was so known for his missionary zeal - but I do not think it good. He was very stern with me and stated with all assuredly that whatever good could be accomplished by any individual in this world to bring souls unto Christ and preserve the work of G-d that is not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that through the gift and power of the Holy Ghost they could do much much more. That whatever G-d can accomplish with devoted individuals in the world - he can accomplish so much greater things through them that receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And that I, above all else, must sound that witness clearly to the world at all times and in all places. That G-d would that all men and women everywhere repent and be baptized.

I have no desire to diminish Richards' apostolic witness at all (anymore, I'm sure, than you would desire to diminish the status of at least two seventies whom I have heard teach to the contrary). And I agree with him as a general rule. But if he were to insist on it as an absolute, then I would respectfully ask him the same questions I ask you:

If God never feels a person can do more good outside of the Church than inside it, then why did God send the spirits of George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, and so on to a time and place where they could never receive the gospel in mortality; when by holding them for another century or two they could and would (per yours/Richards' logic) have accomplished so much more? And how would Kane, as a converted and practicing Mormon, have been able to effectively assist in the raising of the Mormon battalion, or de-fusing the Utah War, or the many other things he accomplished; if he were seen in Washington circles as just another Mormon?

That we have an obligation to preach faith and repentance and baptism through proper authority, is indisputable. What is questionable, I think, is the assumption that a person who declines such an invitation just because he sincerely feels that God wants him to stay where he is, is necessarily misreading God's plan for his own life.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

Your advantage is the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Traveler

Implying that the nuns are devoid of the guidance of the Holy Ghost?

It matters not if I have the CONSTANT gift of the Holy Ghost and the nuns have this gift only in bursts of personal revelation. If I only pray and seek the guidance once a day while the nuns pray and seek guidance 24 times a day, they may still have more guidance than I get. Nuns live their lives in constant service, worship, and prayer in every single thing that they do. It's a lifetime of devotion. We, LDS, are lucky if we get to do that dedication for 18 months or 2 years... and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Mother Teresa sitting right next to Jesus Christ while you and I, Traveler, wonder how we ended up in the Telestial Kingdom...

Edited January 3, 2014 by anatess

[Dravin]

Implying that the nuns are devoid of the guidance of the Holy Ghost?

Nope, but rather that they do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost. Are you unaware of the distinction?

[Guest]

Nope, but rather that they do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost. Are you unaware of the distinction?

Of course I am aware of the distinction. To which I replied - do you then believe that those who do not have the "gift of the Holy Ghost" are not guided by the Holy Ghost? - which is your implication on this thread.

[Leah]

Of course I am aware of the distinction. To which I replied - do you then believe that those who do not have the "gift of the Holy Ghost" are not guided by the Holy Ghost? - which is your implication on this thread.

It seems to me that you did indeed state that the nuns do have the gift, as you stated you have the gift constantly, while stating that they only have "this gift" in "bursts".

[prisonchaplain]

My two-cents--if the minister was converted in his heart and mind to Joseph Smith's prophetic role and message, he should have made an open conversion. He reminds me of the adulterous minister in the Scarlet Letter, who claimed that his refusal of public repentance was a guilty cross he would bare to protect his congregation. He played the victim, while refusing public scorn.

Others here are suggesting that we encourage people to seek God. Further, those on the journey towards God can do great good even before they come to their full realization of his call upon their lives.

[Guest]

It seems to me that you did indeed state that the nuns do have the gift, as you stated you have the gift constantly, while stating that they only have "this gift" in "bursts".

"Gift" is a word used by LDS to mean a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. "Gift" for a Catholic are seven specific intellectual and ethical virtues given by the Holy Ghost as follows:

1. wisdom - ability to recognize and choose spiritual desires over material ones with the Spirit's guidance

2. Understanding - ability to gain knowledge of God's will through the Spirit's guidance

3. Judgement - ability to discern right from wrong with the Spirit's guidance

4. Fortitude - the strength to endure trials to follow the Spirit

5. Knowledge - ability to receive what the LDS calls personal revelation about God

6. Piety - ability to surrender one's self to the will of God or what LDS calls a life of consecration

7. Wonder - the utmost love and respect for God and fear of separation from God

So yes. Catholics have these seven gifts as I have a living and true testimony of all seven virtues present in my life as a Catholic. And just because the LDS reserves the word "gift" for their own purposes does not mean that I have to abandon its Catholic usage.

[Dravin]

Of course I am aware of the distinction. To which I replied - do you then believe that those who do not have the "gift of the Holy Ghost" are not guided by the Holy Ghost? - which is your implication on this thread.

Well you see, if you understand the distinction then you'd understand that, "X does not have the gift of the Holy Ghost" does not imply, "X is never guided by the Holy Ghost."

And just because the LDS reserves the word "gift" for their own purposes does not mean that I have to abandon its Catholic usage.

You were responding to someone who is LDS, in an LDS Gospel Discussion Forum, who is clearly using it in the LDS sense, for Traveler's statement, the Catholic sense is irrelevant, he's not stating that according to Catholic understanding and definition of the idea of the gift of the Holy Ghost that you have it and Nuns don't. It's understandable if one is unaware of the, intended given the context, LDS sense and thus uses a different sense they know, but otherwise it comes across as intentional misconstruction.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Dravin

[ztodd]

If God never feels a person can do more good outside of the Church than inside it, then why did God send the spirits of George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, and so on to a time and place where they could never receive the gospel in mortality; when by holding them for another century or two they could and would (per yours/Richards' logic) have accomplished so much more? And how would Kane, as a converted and practicing Mormon, have been able to effectively assist in the raising of the Mormon battalion, or de-fusing the Utah War, or the many other things he accomplished; if he were seen in Washington circles as just another Mormon?

I don't think Heavenly Father necessarily places people in the time and place where they can do the most good. I think more often He places them when and where they can best learn the lessons they need to learn. Just my opinion.

added: but I don't think the reasons are the same for everyone for when and where they are sent to earth.

[ztodd]

If I only pray and seek the guidance once a day while the nuns pray and seek guidance 24 times a day, they may still have more guidance than I get.

I don't think this is necessarily true... the Lord expects us to not spend too much time praying, but to also be up and doing. I'm not necessarily saying that Nuns pray too much- it's probably fine to pray and seek guidance 24 or more times per day- we should probably all do that- not formally pray 24 times, but to pray in our hearts that many times would be good.

I guess it's hard to make a generalization as to who would receive more guidance from the Holy Ghost- it all depends on the humility, sincerity, and righteousness of the individuals.

Nuns live their lives in constant service, worship, and prayer in every single thing that they do. It's a lifetime of devotion. We, LDS, are lucky if we get to do that dedication for 18 months or 2 years... and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Mother Teresa sitting right next to Jesus Christ while you and I, Traveler, wonder how we ended up in the Telestial Kingdom...

Ooo, that was kind a jab wasn't it? :) As far as where we end up in eternity, I won't even try to make any prediction about that for other people. I'll just say this- I believe we will be judged by our faith and works according to our own level of knowledge and accountability, and eventually everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject the fullness of Jesus Christ's gospel and all the necessary ordinances.

[Leah]

"Gift" is a word used by LDS to mean a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. "Gift" for a Catholic are seven specific intellectual and ethical virtues given by the Holy Ghost as follows:

1. wisdom - ability to recognize and choose spiritual desires over material ones with the Spirit's guidance

2. Understanding - ability to gain knowledge of God's will through the Spirit's guidance

3. Judgement - ability to discern right from wrong with the Spirit's guidance

4. Fortitude - the strength to endure trials to follow the Spirit

5. Knowledge - ability to receive what the LDS calls personal revelation about God

6. Piety - ability to surrender one's self to the will of God or what LDS calls a life of consecration

7. Wonder - the utmost love and respect for God and fear of separation from God

So yes. Catholics have these seven gifts as I have a living and true testimony of all seven virtues present in my life as a Catholic. And just because the LDS reserves the word "gift" for their own purposes does not mean that I have to abandon its Catholic usage.

See Dravin's post. He nailed it.

[Guest]

You were responding to someone who is LDS, in an LDS Gospel Discussion Forum, who is clearly using it in the LDS sense, for Traveler's statement, the Catholic sense is irrelevant, he's not stating that according to Catholic understanding and definition of the idea of the gift of the Holy Ghost that you have it and Nuns don't. It's understandable if one is unaware of the, intended given the context, LDS sense and thus uses a different sense they know, but otherwise it comes across as intentional misconstruction.

Here, Dravin. You win the Internet.

Edited January 5, 2014 by anatess

[Guest]

Well you see, if you understand the distinction then you'd understand that, "X does not have the gift of the Holy Ghost" does not imply, "X is never guided by the Holy Ghost."

.

Either you misunderstand what Traveler and I were discussing or I did.

His position on this thread is that when non-LDS claims they get guidance which does not lead them to the LDS Church, then they're not guided by the Holy Ghost, hence my statement about him implying that the nuns, and even PrisonChaplain, is not guided by the Spirit. Traveler believes, as PrisonChaplain is still not LDS, then PC's claims that the AoFG is where the Spirit wants him to be means he's either not listening properly or is speaking to a fake Spirit.

Edited January 5, 2014 by anatess

[Traveler]

Either you misunderstand what Traveler and I were discussing or I did.

His position on this thread is that when non-LDS claims they get guidance which does not lead them to the LDS Church, then they're not guided by the Holy Ghost, hence my statement about him implying that the nuns, and even PrisonChaplain, is not guided by the Spirit. Traveler believes, as PrisonChaplain is still not LDS, then PC's claims that the AoFG is where the Spirit wants him to be means he's either not listening properly or is speaking to a fake Spirit.

To clarify my understanding - the Holy Ghost testifies of things that are true and nothing else. We all know that there are many truths in many other churches to which the Holy Ghost testifies - that correspond to truths revealed to LDS in the restoration. For example - the importance of traditional family. However, I do not believe the Holy Spirit will lead an individual away from or to not accept his appointed messengers the prophets. If the testimony or message of a prophet sounds in the ear of anyone; the Holy Ghost will always verify that it is true to the seeker of truth. The Holy Ghost will never witness that an impostor (regardless of how well meaning and sincere) speaks for G-d or that what a prophets declares is irrelevant.

In short if the truth is declared unto any one - it is not through the witness of the Holy Ghost that they reject it - even if there are other truths they seem to believe. If a person is lead by the Holy Ghost it is impossible for them to reject anything that is truth. The only reason they will not accept a truth is because they have not encountered it.

The Traveler