Lds And Slavery

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

I came across this discussion this morning and thought it was fascinating. It was more about the LDS church and its relationship to slavery, not its history with regards to African Americans. Basically, it was better than most other established religions, with the probable exception of the Quakers.

The discussion group is made of up believing Mormons who discuss all-things LDS, and I love it.

I made this a new discussion rather than add it to the existing thread about the Church and African Americans becuase it is specifically about slavery and because I didn't want it to get lost in the old thread.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Emma

LDS and Slavery

[a-train]

It is interesting to hear a person say something like: 'Back in the old days, they didn't view slavery the way we do today.'

Sometimes I wonder if that is even more true than we give credit. We imagine people didn't view slaves worthy of freedom and rights. But, I also wonder if slavery itself was viewed much differently.

The famous speech by Brigham Young to the Utah Legislature contained language that made it seem like his understanding of the proper scenario of a servant is that they were well cared for and provided for in every need as were the children of the household, living clean and well maintained lives. This is a very different image than that of slaves sleeping in shacks in the fields eating almost nothing in filth and rags while their masters mistreat them with every conceivable abuse and live like a king in a palace.

Furthermore, race and slavery are two different subjects, they have only been crashed together by the fixation of America on black slavery. Slavery has existed among all the races throughout the aeons. The noble ideals of equality and freedom are highly celebrated by modern America just as they were in early America, but the notion of slavery and it's relation to those wonderful principles has changed in the past couple of centuries. Let us not assume that any of our forefathers whether LDS or not were automatically racists because of any ambivalence toward slavery.

-a-train

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

Furthermore, race and slavery are two different subjects, they have only been crashed together by the fixation of America on black slavery.

That was poetry.

Emma

[Dr T]

I agree a-train, but let’s not subjugate the reality of the coalescence of the two to only a fixation. “Black slavery” is a historical reality in the U.S.

[a-train]

Don't get me wrong, the fixation I am speaking of is not modern. It was the fixation on black slavery during the time of it's existance I am referring to.

It would seem there came a point wherein people thought that blacks should be slaves because of skin color and should therefore remain slaves, meanwhile they were willing to make all other men free, now that was racist. Thus, the 'fixation'. They were somehow ready to free all men, but held on with a deep fixation to black and only black slavery.

It is because of the historical reality of this fixation that we still seem to have a strong connection between race and slavery in the minds of people today. However, that connection translates to the logic that anyone that wasn't ardently against slavery was a racist. This is simply not true. As was mentioned in the link Emma gave, slaves of other races were not outside the minds of the people in those days. There were many that didn't hold the 'fixation' of black slavery, but saw slaves as a multi-racial group who were slaves because of reasons other than skin color.

-a-train

[Dr T]

Thanks. I hear you sir.

[Guest mamacat]

I came across this discussion this morning and thought it was fascinating. It was more about the LDS church and its relationship to slavery, not its history with regards to African Americans. Basically, it was better than most other established religions, with the probable exception of the Quakers.

The discussion group is made of up believing Mormons who discuss all-things LDS, and I love it.

I made this a new discussion rather than add it to the existing thread about the Church and African Americans becuase it is specifically about slavery and because I didn't want it to get lost in the old thread.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Emma

LDS and Slavery

interesting and thought provoking Emma. good food for thought.

[CrimsonKairos]

If we're talking religions and slavery, why isn't anyone mentioning Islam?

Muslims have a loooooong history of slavery throughout the world. In fact, Muslims still take and hold slaves in Mauritania and a few other locations in Africa. Yes, today.

Yet all we hear is, "Those bad, bad Mormons...not letting blacks have the priesthood until 1978...tsk, tsk, tsk."

When slaves were first introduced to the Americas, guess who provided the slaves for the slave-traders to ship across the Atlantic? Yep, Muslim slavers in Africa.

[Palerider]

If we're talking religions and slavery, why isn't anyone mentioning Islam?

Muslims have a loooooong history of slavery throughout the world. In fact, Muslims still take and hold slaves in Mauritania and a few other locations in Africa. Yes, today.

Yet all we hear is, "Those bad, bad Mormons...not letting blacks have the priesthood until 1978...tsk, tsk, tsk."

When slaves were first introduced to the Americas, guess who provided the slaves for the slave-traders to ship across the Atlantic? Yep, Muslim slavers in Africa.

and no one remembers we were opposed to slavery ....which Glen Beck made reference to when Al Sharpton was on his show

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

If we're talking religions and slavery, why isn't anyone mentioning Islam?

Because this board is called "LDS Talk"?

Muslims have a loooooong history of slavery throughout the world. In fact, Muslims still take and hold slaves in Mauritania and a few other locations in Africa. Yes, today.

Yet all we hear is, "Those bad, bad Mormons...not letting blacks have the priesthood until 1978...tsk, tsk, tsk."

I actually think the discussion has dispelled a bit of the "Those bad, bad Mormons. . . " attitude.

More importantly, I believe any time Mormons are able to discuss their history with an open mind, willing to confront the truth while maintaining perspective, that's a very good thing. But that's just my opnion.

When slaves were first introduced to the Americas, guess who provided the slaves for the slave-traders to ship across the Atlantic? Yep, Muslim slavers in Africa.

There were African slavers as well.

Emma

[CrimsonKairos]

African Muslims formed the backbone of the slave trade with the sub-Saharan slave-trading.

<div class='quotemain'>If we're talking religions and slavery, why isn't anyone mentioning Islam?

Because this board is called "LDS Talk"?

Yep, but it's not "LDS ONLY talk." B)

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

African Muslims formed the backbone of the slave trade with the sub-Saharan slave-trading.

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>If we're talking religions and slavery, why isn't anyone mentioning Islam?

Because this board is called "LDS Talk"?

Yep, but it's not "LDS ONLY talk." B)

Great! Start a thread!

Seriously.

Ema

[Guest mamacat]

<div class='quotemain'>

African Muslims formed the backbone of the slave trade with the sub-Saharan slave-trading.

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>If we're talking religions and slavery, why isn't anyone mentioning Islam?

Because this board is called "LDS Talk"?

Yep, but it's not "LDS ONLY talk." B)

Great! Start a thread!

Seriously.

Ema

dear Emma ~

Ck's question revolves around "religions and slavery" in response, i imagine, to the topic of the article to which you hyperlinked in the original post of this thread.

from the opening paragraph of that article ~

There seems to be a general perception that the LDS church has not had a strong record as to race. The underlying facts, however, are quite a bit more complicated than that simple answer would suggest. As it turns out, the correct answer to the query “In matters of race, has the LDS church been progressive compared with other religious institutions, or has it been regressive?”, is: Both.

it appears, to me anyway, that the question regarding islam (a religion) and slavery is very valid within the context of the discussion in this thread. in the initial post you stated that the topic is specifically about slavery...and the comparison of LDS to other religions (Quakers). and if Islam contributed to the institution of slavery (in Africa, the country from which black americans originate), it also would seem that it is indeed relevant here.

[CrimsonKairos]

What she said.

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

it appears, to me anyway, that the question regarding islam (a religion) and slavery is very valid within the context of the discussion in this thread. in the initial post you stated that the topic is specifically about slavery...and the comparison of LDS to other religions (Quakers). and if Islam contributed to the institution of slavery (in Africa, the country from which black americans originate), it also would seem that it is indeed relevant here.

Oh! Now I understand.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.

Emma

What she said.

Yes, thanks to mamacat's explanation, which was concise and helpful, especially since I'm not a mindreader, I now understand your point.

So carry on. I'm really interested in what you have to say.

Additionally, you might want to add your thoughts to the Times and Seasons thread, since that's where the omission of the Muslims' participation in slavery originally occurred. They're really open to that kind of participation and enjoy different perspectives.

Emma

[Guest mamacat]

mind reader

"hmmm.....Crimson Kairos is a muslim....." uuumm, no, that's not it.... "Crimson Kairos is a slave trader...." ok, maybe....but let's focus now... "Crimson Kairos thinks that Islam is an LDS offshoot...."

k...might be gettin closer now....

[CrimsonKairos]

[a-train]

History of the Church Vol. 3 Intro XXVI:

"Here follows [Joseph Smith's] statesman-like word, published throughout the United States in 1844-eleven years before Ralph Waldo Emerson made substantially the same recommendation, and for which the philosopher received no end of praise:-

'Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, and infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of the public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for an hour of virtuous liberty is worth a whole eternity of bondage.'"

I cracked open the old History of the Church volume set and stumbled on this tonight. I love these books.

Now it is that last line that makes me wonder. The joy and blessings of granting one hour of liberty in a virtuous and generous manner is worth an eternity of labor from a slave.

Regardless, his advice was clear.

From an article in the Messenger and Advocate published in April 1836 (full text on page 436-440 of History of the Church vol. 2) the prophet was clear that he was not an Abolitionist. The article is too lengthy for me to type, but I would definitely suggest reading it. It is very informative. The prophet realized the possibility of the issue to bring about bloodshed and violence if the North pressed on it's efforts to force the South to abolish slavery.

It would seem also that he understood that the efforts of the Church were much different, much grander, broader, and greater than the political and legal processes of the United States; for this, a Church growing far passed the borders of this nation need not be consumed by the local affairs of politics and government.

Indeed, the abolition of slavery throughout the world is NOT within the scope of the Church's duties, but imagine what a great difference it would make if more of the world came into the Church. Perhaps we would not even be having any difficulty over such an issue.

-a-train

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

History of the Church Vol. 3 Intro XXVI:

"Here follows [Joseph Smith's] statesman-like word, published throughout the United States in 1844-eleven years before Ralph Waldo Emerson made substantially the same recommendation, and for which the philosopher received no end of praise:-

'Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, and infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of the public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for an hour of virtuous liberty is worth a whole eternity of bondage.'"

I cracked open the old History of the Church volume set and stumbled on this tonight. I love these books.

-a-train

Hi -a-train!

I love this stuff as well! I have never read this before.

I wanted to comment on the following:

'Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, and infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of the public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for an hour of virtuous liberty is worth a whole eternity of bondage.'

I don't recall where, but very recently someone mentioned to me that every other slave-holding country in the then-modern, western world abolished slavery in this manner. The United States is the only country that went to war over it. How incredibly sad.

You all probably know more than I about it--it's not an area I have studied at all. But even to this unbeliever, Joseph was very prescient.

'Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for an hour of virtuous liberty is worth a whole eternity of bondage.'

That takes my breath away!

Emma