A Question About The New And Everlasting Covenant

[LukeAir2006]

B)

[CrimsonKairos]

Kokaubeam is actually wrong (sheesh Abraham, can't you get it right?).

The Hebrew word for "star" is "kokhav," and in Hebrew you make a masculine singular word a masculine plural by adding "eem" to the end, and so we end up with "kokhaveem" for "stars." Oh well, since "b" and "v" are phonetic relatives (one voiced, one unvoiced), I guess I can forgive Abraham or Joseph Smith for getting it off by one letter.

As for the speed of light thing...I personally believe that God isn't limited by the speed of light. Maybe I should coin a new term for this rate of travel available to exalted beings...hmmm, I'll go with "the speed of purity."

[Guest mamacat]

didn't you see K-Pax Lukeair? space travelers travel much faster than the speed of light.

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

Those who practice or teach plural marriage will be excommunicated.

Actually, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints continues to practice polygamy, as defined by its doctrine. This happens each time a man is married/sealed to his second (or third, fourth, etc.) wife in the temple. However, he cannot be civilly married to two or more women.

I know President Hinckley has stated the church has nothing whatever to do with polygamy. I think this is a bit disengenuous. It is canonized in the Doctrine & Covenants, and as I noted above, is still practiced today as defined by the doctrine.

In addition, to members who believe the Celestial Kingdom is as real as the chair you're sitting in right now, there will be numerous plural marriages to be seen. For example, my grandfather is married/sealed to three women. My uncle is sealed to two women, and my sister's husband is sealed to two women, (she loves that!). According to Mormon doctrine, all of these people will live in plural marriages in the Celestial Kingdom.

So while the church no longer practices civil polygamy, it does still practice it as defined by its doctrine.

Emma

[CrimsonKairos]

I don't think anyone here has disagreed with what you just said, Emma.

The difference is, the LDS Church will not seal a man to more than one living woman at the same time.

When people say polygamy, they usually think of it as having more than one living wife at a time.

There's no scandal when a man is sealed to one wife, she dies, and he marries another in the temple. Yes, it's polygamy. No, people don't usually think of it in those terms.

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

If that is the case, then the LDS Church is false, and Joseph Smith and several LDS prophets were carnal frauds.

It's a good thing the above hypothetical is just that: hypothetical. It's also a good thing God did reveal the principle of polygamy, and it's also a very good thing that He still guides His children through living prophets.

Thank you CK. I understand that's your assertion. This issue we'd disagree on. I'd assert that it goes against God and lustful desires while you would say God used it in his plan. Without trying to be disrespectful or incite anger in you, I'd truthfully wonder if this issue is one of the things that we can see as "loving evil and seeing good as evil" that is talked about. I know it is part of your LDS history and is justified in your church. It's hard to talk about these things because it is like slapping someone's significant other. Their love affair would want to stop that-I understand. I didn't mean to be offend, just laying out some thoughts.

Hi Dr. T,

I'm an ex-Mormon who is passionate about Mormon history, and am particularly enamored of the Mormons' practice of polygamy. I thought I'd share a few of my thoughts.

As a non-believer, it is difficult for me to determine why Joseph started the practice. Joseph is such a complicated personality that I don't feel capable of making a definitive claim. As an atheist I don't actually believe God commanded him to practice polygamy. However, knowing Joseph as I do, I have no doubt he believed he had been commanded to practice it. Nonetheless, I do not feel comfortable discussing Joseph's polygamy as I am not well-versed in it.

But what I do feel comfortable discussing is the Saints practice of polygamy in Salt Lake City. I have probably read 50 journals, five books, numerous master's theses, etc. I especially loved the journals.

Anyway, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the pioneers practiced polygamy because they adamantly believed it had been commanded by God. Almost every single journal from the period literally has that written somewhere in its pages.

What is interesting is how the women's journals describe polygamy. Rarely did I see a woman overtly complain about it--again, it was commanded by God. However, if she did not care for the practice, she would write of incidents, describing all the negative details. If there were a picnic, for example, she wrote how one sisterwife did not do her share of the work, another was too exacting, things of that nature. Unfortunately, many of the journals were full of great trials and unhappiness for numerous women in polygamy. But the vast majority of them never gave up on it!

If, however, she enjoyed living a polygamous life, her journal would contain numerous accounts of happy, peaceful lives with her children and her sisterwives. More women than we realize were committed, and content, with polygamy.

I assure you, they were fascinating.

Also, one of my favorite books about polygamy is called "Mormon Mother, An Autobiography of Annie Clark Tanner." One part I remember is where Annie spoke of the Mormon Underground Railroad where mothers and their children were shuttled away in order to not have to testify against their husbands. It was absolutely riveting.

So, there you have it. I thought you might enjoy a little of my blabbering. :)

Emma

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

I don't think anyone here has disagreed with what you just said, Emma.

The difference is, the LDS Church will not seal a man to more than one living woman at the same time.

When people say polygamy, they usually think of it as having more than one living wife at a time.

There's no scandal when a man is sealed to one wife, she dies, and he marries another in the temple. Yes, it's polygamy. No, people don't usually think of it in those terms.

Hi CK,

I agree there's no scandal. I just think the church should be more forthcoming and admit polygamy is still part of its doctrine. It doesn't need to go into anymore detail than that.

Frankly, I was especially disappointed in Mitt Romney's condemnation of his family's polygamous past. He should have been so proud of them and their amazing commitment. It is unfortunate our modern sensibilities are offended by our ancestor's stunning insistence on following their god. I do understand the hesitation. I just think it's unfortunate.

Emma

[Dr T]

Thank you for your thoughts Emma. I'd guess, as you said, the climate of the time let other to truly believed that it was from God. It was shaped by the church and the adherents.

[wiley]

Very good thoughts Emma. I agreed with what you said. I look forward to talking to you about history in other threads.

[Guest Yediyd]

Some say yes, some say no. I was hoping some have figured this out and it wasn't just me.

Let me clarify a few things though. My question has nothing to do with polygamy here on Earth, in the past or if ever the future. I do not believe that polygamy is never an evil practice when command by the Lord such as the case with Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Solomon, David (except of course his big blunder), and even JS. It is an evil practice when the Lord does not command it such as with the Nephites and today. On that note, I believe that men like Enoch, Noah, and Job were monogomous, showing that not all men were commanded to live in a polygamous relationship during the OT era. I could be wrong on these accounts, but the point is still the same. To me, Jacob 2: 30 explains all why the Lord commands polygamy at one time or another. The purpose is to bring about children. In the case of polygamy during our history, I wonder if anyone has ever tried to figure out how many children were born and what affect that had on the church. What would the church be like today if polygamy never took place? It wouldn't surprise me if the LDS church would not have been as significant today in that "alternate universe".

SO, I'm content with the knowledge that I only need to be sealed here to my wife. Even if, though unlikely, the Lord ever reinstates polygamy before I die, I don't think I will be required to do so. I expect to fall in to that large group of Mormons that did not practice polygamy, and still be eligable for exaltation.

BUT, my question is....when my wife and I have died and moved on , and we have been the "perfect" followers of Christ, which I can say because this is my fantistical future prediction, and thus we are completely forgiven of our sins and have inherited eternal life, will we be escorted into a heavenly office and asked to seal more women to our family? And if we are not comfortable with that, will the "office manager" say, "Oh, well sorry, we can't offer exaltation, but here is another very nice place in the Celestial palace for you and your wife to inherit. Oh, by the way, you will not be able to procreate. But I think you will be happy there."?

I look forward to your responses. Some may have felt they have already answered this question, but maybe I didn't follow you, so if you could please clarify. Thanks

I should HOPE so! I'm doing all I can to live the gosple...I have no husband...I need one to be exalted...I will be one of those women God may ask you to marry in the Celetial Kingdom! THEN, I won't live too far away!

[Snow]

I know President Hinckley has stated the church has nothing whatever to do with polygamy. I think this is a bit disengenuous. It is canonized in the Doctrine & Covenants, and as I noted above, is still practiced today as defined by the doctrine.

What are we? Idiots? Your criticism is nonsense. We all know what President Hinckley intended without your added spin.

[CrimsonKairos]

I'd guess, as you said, the climate of the time let other to truly believed that it was from God. It was shaped by the church and the adherents.

The problem with guesses is that they're not always right.

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

<div class='quotemain'>

I know President Hinckley has stated the church has nothing whatever to do with polygamy. I think this is a bit disengenuous. It is canonized in the Doctrine & Covenants, and as I noted above, is still practiced today as defined by the doctrine.

What are we? Idiots? Your criticism is nonsense. We all know what President Hinckley intended without your added spin.

Exactly. We do know what President Hinckley intended. The problem is outsiders, especially investigators, don't necessarily understand that what Preisdent Hinckley intended isn't quite the whole truth.

They take him at his word, i.e., that the church has "nothing whatever" to do with polygamy. To them, this means nothing now, and nothing ever.

To illustrate, I had a conversation with a new convert who insisted there were not going to be any polygamous marriages in heaven because President Hinckley said so! The convert kept showing me President Hinkley's quote, specifically the phrase, where the church had "mothing whatever" to do with polygamy. He was not yet the "insider," who would not only understand that there would be polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom, but that these marriages were still being performed today!

So don't get mad at me for the spin!

Emma

[a-train]

I am not sure what quote we are talking about here. Is it this one?:

'There is no such thing as a "fundamentalist" Mormon. Mormon is a common name for a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church discontinued polygamy more than a century ago. No members of the Church today can enter into polygamy without being excommunicated. Polygamist groups in Utah, other parts of the American West and elsewhere have nothing whatsoever to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.'

Clearly, this one cannot somehow be interpreted that Hinkley stated that the Church has never had anything whatsoever to do with polygamy.

Is there another quote?

-a-train