Becoming Like God

[Traveler]

 

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have had discussions like this before about the evils of "the Flesh" but not so much with devout LDS.  May I ask some questions about your belief to see if there is a possibility of something I have missed in my considerations?

 

Do you believe that carnal (meaning of the flesh) and sensual (meaning of the 5 senses – sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell) define the “natural man”?  And that in our current fallen state is the very definition of natural man mentioned in scripture.  In other words any pull or inclination resulting from the carnal and sensual nature of fallen man – is the enemy of G-d and all natural tendencies of the carnal and sensual will always inevitably lead anyone relying on or willingly participating in such things, to any degree, away from G-d?  Please consider carefully you thinking to answer.  Not because this is meant to be “trick” questions but to verify that you are considering all possibilities – both in personal experience and study.

 

Also can you, from your experience and background, discribe our alternate spiritual nature that has no part or experience relating to the carnal and sensual - without scientific tie to the carnal or sensual?

No, the "natural man" is one who gives into those carnal drives, not just one who has them.  There is a difference.  The enemy of God is one who learns to loves her natural nature more than her spiritual nature. Just as money by itself can do no harm, but the love of money is harmful.  The "natural man" is one who falls in love with those natural passions or becomes beholden to them, such as what happens with addiction or even laziness.  If one does nothing, the default is to give into them.  It takes effort to follow the spiritual influences. The spirit is hidden behind the veil (the body - in essense) unless it is brought out and with constant enduring effort is sought.

 

These carnal natures are part of our probationary state, a temporary test. Our spirits are naturally good and innocent.  We are children of God and therefore would have a tendency to want to be like God and naturally develop in that direction.  In this fallen state we have been placed in a temporary situation in which there is a dual being status.  There are two natures at play.  The carnal nature of our body and the world around us is the fallen state.

 

I know you like to speak in absolutes but I am not.  The idea that there are two polar opposites, in fact, allows for a spectrum.  It does not always result in an all or nothing response. We are not talking about a light switch.  It is more like two people having a tug of war with a rope.  Eventually, we cannot serve two masters, one will have to be ignored as we follow the other.  Those that follow carnal influences eventually take on those carnal features within their spiritual self.  (One example, when people start to tell their self, "I was born this way, this is who I am" or "this is the way God made me" = one of Satan's best deceptions)  This is why a third of the host of heaven were afraid to come here, why take that risk that we could become sensual and carnal when before we weren't?  If we learn to love the carnal more than the spiritual then that is what is in our heart and taken with us to the next life.  The goal, then, would be to subdue the carnal, to be the master of the carnal and follow the spiritual influences. This requires spiritual discernment, to know what is from the body and what is from the spirit.

 

Like breaking in a wild horse, if one did nothing to break the horse, the horse would remain wild. The horse will not become broken by itself, so naturally it is wild.  The fallen body is the same.  It is naturally wild and sensual and if not bridled like a horse will stay that way and continue to drive carnal passions.  The suggestion by the word "natural" is that if one did nothing the person would remain in that state.  In this life, those carnal passions cannot be abolished completely until death.  Paul could not get rid of the "thorn in the flesh" but realized it was there to not exalt himself above measure. This is what creates choice.  Do we choose the passions of the body or do we follow the promptings of the spirit? (Like I have quoted from Elder Bednar's talk, that is what he says is the main test of this life.)

 

The Apostles slept when they were trying not to.  Was it the spirit that drove the desire to sleep or the body or some other force?  We are told, the spirit is willing but the body is weak.   Even for an apostle, the battle continues between polar pulls.

 

When we fast on Fast Sunday (memories of yesterday are still in my head, especially as we have the 1 pm church block), is the desire to eat and the desire to fast from the same source?  The natural man gives into the carnal passions.  Being spiritually minded, means following the promptings of the spirit.

 

I don't think it is any more complicated than that.

 

I am not sure what is meant by "alternate" spiritual nature, to answer that question.  Sorry, in my understanding, one's spiritual nature is a single thing, I don't know of any alternates. The body has it's nature and the spirit has it's nature and therefore we are dual beings, each with its single nature.

[Traveler]

No, the "natural man" is one who gives into those carnal drives, not just one who has them.  There is a difference.  The enemy of God is one who learns to loves her natural nature more than her spiritual nature. Just as money by itself can do no harm, but the love of money is harmful.  The "natural man" is one who falls in love with those natural passions or becomes beholden to them, such as what happens with addiction or even laziness.  If one does nothing, the default is to give into them.  It takes effort to follow the spiritual influences. The spirit is hidden behind the veil (the body - in essense) unless it is brought out and with constant enduring effort is sought.

 

These carnal natures are part of our probationary state, a temporary test. Our spirits are naturally good and innocent.  We are children of God and therefore would have a tendency to want to be like God and naturally develop in that direction.  In this fallen state we have been placed in a temporary situation in which there is a dual being status.  There are two natures at play.  The carnal nature of our body and the world around us is the fallen state.

 

I know you like to speak in absolutes but I am not.  The idea that there are two polar opposites, in fact, allows for a spectrum.  It does not always result in an all or nothing response. We are not talking about a light switch.  It is more like two people having a tug of war with a rope.  Eventually, we cannot serve two masters, one will have to be ignored as we follow the other.  Those that follow carnal influences eventually take on those carnal features within their spiritual self.  (One example, when people start to tell their self, "I was born this way, this is who I am" or "this is the way God made me" = one of Satan's best deceptions)  This is why a third of the host of heaven were afraid to come here, why take that risk that we could become sensual and carnal when before we weren't?  If we learn to love the carnal more than the spiritual then that is what is in our heart and taken with us to the next life.  The goal, then, would be to subdue the carnal, to be the master of the carnal and follow the spiritual influences. This requires spiritual discernment, to know what is from the body and what is from the spirit.

 

Like breaking in a wild horse, if one did nothing to break the horse, the horse would remain wild. The horse will not become broken by itself, so naturally it is wild.  The fallen body is the same.  It is naturally wild and sensual and if not bridled like a horse will stay that way and continue to drive carnal passions.  The suggestion by the word "natural" is that if one did nothing the person would remain in that state.  In this life, those carnal passions cannot be abolished completely until death.  Paul could not get rid of the "thorn in the flesh" but realized it was there to not exalt himself above measure. This is what creates choice.  Do we choose the passions of the body or do we follow the promptings of the spirit? (Like I have quoted from Elder Bednar's talk, that is what he says is the main test of this life.)

 

The Apostles slept when they were trying not to.  Was it the spirit that drove the desire to sleep or the body or some other force?  We are told, the spirit is willing but the body is weak.   Even for an apostle, the battle continues between polar pulls.

 

When we fast on Fast Sunday (memories of yesterday are still in my head, especially as we have the 1 pm church block), is the desire to eat and the desire to fast from the same source?  The natural man gives into the carnal passions.  Being spiritually minded, means following the promptings of the spirit.

 

I don't think it is any more complicated than that.

 

I am not sure what is meant by "alternate" spiritual nature, to answer that question.  Sorry, in my understanding, one's spiritual nature is a single thing, I don't know of any alternates. The body has it's nature and the spirit has it's nature and therefore we are dual beings, each with its single nature.

 

Interesting answer.  But I am not sure what you are suggesting.  Are you saying that our physical nature has a spectrum?  Or are you saying that there is a spectrum in how the influences of our physical self and how our spiritual self are mixed (or integrated).  And that you believe in essence that any physical influence is always evil and if enjoyed or believed to any degree draws us (fallen mortal man) away from G-d and makes us his enemy?  Along with this – do you mean that regardless of what we do – as long as we are physically fallen or mortal – any physical enjoyment or knowledge is evil and contrary to the plan of G-d.

 

I believe that I can deal with non-absolutes.  I am trying to determine if you can.  Do you believe that the carnal and sensual is always the natural man?  Or do you believe that it is possible to integrate the mortal physical with our spiritual side and thus allow us to learn of physical things that are good and true and of eternal value?  Or is anything that is understood by or through our fallen physical nature of necessity; is corrupted.

 

What I meant by an alternate spiritual nature is that nature that is alternate to our mortal physical nature.  I am asking how you determine for example the difference between thoughts that come to you physically or thoughts that come to you spiritually?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Interesting answer.  But I am not sure what you are suggesting.  Are you saying that our physical nature has a spectrum?  Or are you saying that there is a spectrum in how the influences of our physical self and how our spiritual self are mixed (or integrated).  And that you believe in essence that any physical influence is always evil and if enjoyed or believed to any degree draws us (fallen mortal man) away from G-d and makes us his enemy?  Along with this – do you mean that regardless of what we do – as long as we are physically fallen or mortal – any physical enjoyment or knowledge is evil and contrary to the plan of G-d.

 

I believe that I can deal with non-absolutes.  I am trying to determine if you can.  Do you believe that the carnal and sensual is always the natural man?  Or do you believe that it is possible to integrate the mortal physical with our spiritual side and thus allow us to learn of physical things that are good and true and of eternal value?  Or is anything that is understood by or through our fallen physical nature of necessity; is corrupted.

Our physical nature has a spectrum but that was not what I was talking about. 

 

There is a spectrum in how the physical and spiritual influence.  For example when someone is in the later stages of Alzheimer's the spirit becomes less able to exert its influence.  If someone is drunk, the spirit is less able to exert its influences. 

 

When you ask these questions you have to realize that you are not distinguishing the spirit from the body.  When you ask "understood by or through our fallen physical nature" I cannot tell if you are distinguishing how it is known, on a spiritual level or just the learning of man?  When you say "learn of physical things" are you talking about the spirit learning spiritual truths through a mortal existence?   Of course the spirit can learn truths through a mortal experience but it is the spirit learning it not the flesh. If something is learned not on a spiritual level then it is for not, it will turn to dust.

 

The result of the experience could be either good or bad depending on the intention (desires of the heart). 

 

It always depends on intention and that is something God has to judge.  If a person learns human anatomy to become a better killer versus learning anatomy to save lives there could be completely opposite outcomes in learning the same information. 

 

Again, I think most have a hard time separating out the fact that they are not their body.  I am not a fallen soul, I am a child of God.  I am currently in a fallen state but that is not who I am.  The body's characteristics are fallen but that does not define me unless my spirit takes it in as self.  If I maintain the knowledge that these characteristics are a stewardship and do not constitute ownership then I will not take them in as my own.  Yes, we have to manage them while we are here and will be judged by that.  Paul, I am sure, did not think the "thorn in the flesh" we be there after death.  If he gave into the "thorn in the flesh" while here and let it defeat him then yes it would end up being a part of his spiritual being.  Through the "thorn in the flesh" Paul strengthened his spiritual character but not by taking on those characteristics.  He strengthened his spiritual characteristics through the carnal nature by using it as a tool to turn his heart's desire to his Savior, to remain humble and not exalt himself above measure, relying on the Lord. The carnal and sensual aspects of the body can be used as a tool to learn spiritual discernment and to learn how to rely on the Lord.  We should always avoid becoming carnally minded.

 

"Carnal", by definition, is not eternal.  So, you tell me, then, what of carnality is eternal?  The only thing is the lessons learned by the spirit in how to remain spiritually minded and avoid becoming carnally minded.

[Traveler]

Our physical nature has a spectrum but that was not what I was talking about. 

 

There is a spectrum in how the physical and spiritual influence.  For example when someone is in the later stages of Alzheimer's the spirit becomes less able to exert its influence.  If someone is drunk, the spirit is less able to exert its influences. 

 

When you ask these questions you have to realize that you are not distinguishing the spirit from the body.  When you ask "understood by or through our fallen physical nature" I cannot tell if you are distinguishing how it is known, on a spiritual level or just the learning of man?  When you say "learn of physical things" are you talking about the spirit learning spiritual truths through a mortal existence?   Of course the spirit can learn truths through a mortal experience but it is the spirit learning it not the flesh. If something is learned not on a spiritual level then it is for not, it will turn to dust.

 

The result of the experience could be either good or bad depending on the intention (desires of the heart). 

 

It always depends on intention and that is something God has to judge.  If a person learns human anatomy to become a better killer versus learning anatomy to save lives there could be completely opposite outcomes in learning the same information. 

 

Again, I think most have a hard time separating out the fact that they are not their body.  I am not a fallen soul, I am a child of God.  I am currently in a fallen state but that is not who I am.  The body's characteristics are fallen but that does not define me unless my spirit takes it in as self.  If I maintain the knowledge that these characteristics are a stewardship and do not constitute ownership then I will not take them in as my own.  Yes, we have to manage them while we are here and will be judged by that.  Paul, I am sure, did not think the "thorn in the flesh" we be there after death.  If he gave into the "thorn in the flesh" while here and let it defeat him then yes it would end up being a part of his spiritual being.  Through the "thorn in the flesh" Paul strengthened his spiritual character but not by taking on those characteristics.  He strengthened his spiritual characteristics through the carnal nature by using it as a tool to turn his heart's desire to his Savior, to remain humble and not exalt himself above measure, relying on the Lord. The carnal and sensual aspects of the body can be used as a tool to learn spiritual discernment and to learn how to rely on the Lord.  We should always avoid becoming carnally minded.

 

"Carnal", by definition, is not eternal.  So, you tell me, then, what of carnality is eternal?  The only thing is the lessons learned by the spirit in how to remain spiritually minded and avoid becoming carnally minded.

 

As I understand the meaning of carnal has to do with that which if of the flesh - specifically the needs of the flesh.  Eating for example is a carnal exercise.  My understanding is that it does not matter what you eat – you can ether eat healthy or unhealthy food to satisfy one’s carnal nature.  My understanding is that carnal means of the flesh – sensual means pertaining to the five senses – which are sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smelling.   I personally do not believe that carnal and sensual defines the natural man.  I believe that the natural man is undisciplined and therefore devilish.  Or someone that refuses to integrate spiritual wisdom using the method of wise discipline to control their carnal and sensual needs and desires. 

 

I think I see things very different from you.  What was the purpose for behavior in the beginning to me is not relevant.  What is important to me is if we integrate through our spirit the promptings of the Holy Ghost to discipline our physical (carnal sensual) nature.  But whenever I suggest such a thing you say that to allow any carnal and sensual input is the mistake of the natural man that is an enemy of G-d.  So I am trying to understand if you really believe all things carnal and sensual are evil and contrary to G-d.  I do not think my question to you is a trick or difficult question.  Is the carnal and sensual always the evil and that the input of our spirit (even if our spirit is a lazy undisciplined spirit) the good.  Is it possible to develop good physical (carnal and sensual) habits (like concerning the word of wisdom for what we take into our physical bodies) or is everything carnal and sensual contrary to G-d?  Is it possible to develop bad spiritual habits as well?  Or is everything pertaining to that which is spiritual or spiritual influence always good?  Is it possible for people to develop good physical habits and bad spiritual habits at the same time?  Or do you believe that our spirit is a divine thing that will never make a mistake on its own – only when it is enticed by the physical (carnal and sensual)?

[Seminarysnoozer]

As I understand the meaning of carnal has to do with that which if of the flesh - specifically the needs of the flesh.  Eating for example is a carnal exercise.  My understanding is that it does not matter what you eat – you can ether eat healthy or unhealthy food to satisfy one’s carnal nature.  My understanding is that carnal means of the flesh – sensual means pertaining to the five senses – which are sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smelling.   I personally do not believe that carnal and sensual defines the natural man.  I believe that the natural man is undisciplined and therefore devilish.  Or someone that refuses to integrate spiritual wisdom using the method of wise discipline to control their carnal and sensual needs and desires. 

 

I think I see things very different from you.  What was the purpose for behavior in the beginning to me is not relevant.  What is important to me is if we integrate through our spirit the promptings of the Holy Ghost to discipline our physical (carnal sensual) nature.  But whenever I suggest such a thing you say that to allow any carnal and sensual input is the mistake of the natural man that is an enemy of G-d.  So I am trying to understand if you really believe all things carnal and sensual are evil and contrary to G-d.  I do not think my question to you is a trick or difficult question.  Is the carnal and sensual always the evil and that the input of our spirit (even if our spirit is a lazy undisciplined spirit) the good.  Is it possible to develop good physical (carnal and sensual) habits (like concerning the word of wisdom for what we take into our physical bodies) or is everything carnal and sensual contrary to G-d?  Is it possible to develop bad spiritual habits as well?  Or is everything pertaining to that which is spiritual or spiritual influence always good?  Is it possible for people to develop good physical habits and bad spiritual habits at the same time?  Or do you believe that our spirit is a divine thing that will never make a mistake on its own – only when it is enticed by the physical (carnal and sensual)?

The problem is that in order to develop good carnal and sensual triats it requires spirit action.  So, your insistence that the body provides that by itself cannot be substantiated by what you are saying. It requires spiritual mastery over the body and then yes there are aspects of body function that are used for good and are helpful.  Like a cowboy breaking a horse it can be useful.  But if the horse remains wild (its natural state) it is not.

 

Admittedly so, in my opinion, our religion does not describe the purpose of the body for the eternities very well.  An individual, for example, who is sent to the Terrestrial Kingdom and will never use the body for procreation is glorified by the body still.  So, what is it about the body that provides that glorified status that the spirit alone could not achieve?  That is not very well described.  What are the positive and good aspects of character that come from the body alone that the spirit is not capable of producing by itself?  I have posed this question on this site several times with no great answer.  The answers that are typically given are either; 1. to participate in procreation or 2. to provide a challenge/opposition in which the spirit can be tested and grow.   That may be well for this life but how are those two things useful in the Terrestrial Kingdom when the body is perfected (provides no opposition) and the Terrestrial being does not participate in procreation?

[Traveler]

The problem is that in order to develop good carnal and sensual triats it requires spirit action.  So, your insistence that the body provides that by itself cannot be substantiated by what you are saying. It requires spiritual mastery over the body and then yes there are aspects of body function that are used for good and are helpful.  Like a cowboy breaking a horse it can be useful.  But if the horse remains wild (its natural state) it is not.

 

Admittedly so, in my opinion, our religion does not describe the purpose of the body for the eternities very well.  An individual, for example, who is sent to the Terrestrial Kingdom and will never use the body for procreation is glorified by the body still.  So, what is it about the body that provides that glorified status that the spirit alone could not achieve?  That is not very well described.  What are the positive and good aspects of character that come from the body alone that the spirit is not capable of producing by itself?  I have posed this question on this site several times with no great answer.  The answers that are typically given are either; 1. to participate in procreation or 2. to provide a challenge/opposition in which the spirit can be tested and grow.   That may be well for this life but how are those two things useful in the Terrestrial Kingdom when the body is perfected (provides no opposition) and the Terrestrial being does not participate in procreation?

 

I have never suggested that the physical by itself is to be considered good or evil.  What I have suggested is that the physical needs to be integrated with the spiritual.  What I had hoped to communicate is that the physical does indeed bring something to the table of experience that is absolutely necessary for eternal righteousness and exaltation that the spirit cannot ever achieve on its own.

 

It has been my impression that you have been arguing that the influences of the physical (carnal and sensual) are evil only and that there is no possible good that can ever come from our physical (carnal and sensual) nature.  I am suggesting otherwise – that every physical (carnal and sensual) attribute can be used for good or evil.  That even as mortals there is nothing physical that does not have divine possibilities.  Once we have established the divine possibility of our physical nature – then a discussion of how such a thing is accomplished becomes meaningful.  My main point concerning all this is that if we believe that our physical nature in inherently evil and corrupting of our spirit or spiritual – then any discussion concerning any possible physical benefits of our mortal opportunity – now or in eternity is pointless.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have never suggested that the physical by itself is to be considered good or evil.  What I have suggested is that the physical needs to be integrated with the spiritual.  What I had hoped to communicate is that the physical does indeed bring something to the table of experience that is absolutely necessary for eternal righteousness and exaltation that the spirit cannot ever achieve on its own.

 

It has been my impression that you have been arguing that the influences of the physical (carnal and sensual) are evil only and that there is no possible good that can ever come from our physical (carnal and sensual) nature.  I am suggesting otherwise – that every physical (carnal and sensual) attribute can be used for good or evil.  That even as mortals there is nothing physical that does not have divine possibilities.  Once we have established the divine possibility of our physical nature – then a discussion of how such a thing is accomplished becomes meaningful.  My main point concerning all this is that if we believe that our physical nature in inherently evil and corrupting of our spirit or spiritual – then any discussion concerning any possible physical benefits of our mortal opportunity – now or in eternity is pointless.

I already said that I don't disagree with that statement that many physical traits could be used for good or evil (I guess I wouldnt use the word "every" as you have).  But I think it is better to say it the other way around, it is good to integrate the spirit into the body, in other words the master is the spirit, not the body, then it might be good.  If the body is the master then it is not good.  Similar to the grafting of a wild branch into the tree with roots that are pure, if the wild overpowers the roots then it is evil, if the roots overpower the wild branch and exert its influence then it is good. Jacob 5; " 37 But behold, the wild branches have grown and have ^aoverrun the roots thereof; and because that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit; and because that it hath brought forth so much evil fruit thou beholdest that it beginneth to perish; and it will soon become ripened, that it may be cast into the fire, except we should do something for it to preserve it."  (even though I know this is being used to describe Gentiles and Jews, the metophor is good).

 

I think I explained myself as good as I can with this corrrupted brain of mine that I have to use to express myself.

 

How have we established the divine possibility of our physical nature other than to say that our current physical nature will turn to dust and we will one day get a new physical nature that will be glorified and perfected like God's?   How in the world (no pun intended) is that establishing the divine possibility of our current corrupted, carnal, sensual body?  You are saying it is divine because one day it will be switched out for a divine one?  That really doesn't make sense to me.  Now, yes, the lessons learned from this fallen body, that are learned spiritually can be divine.  But that is not the same thing as saying our current, fallen, corrupted body can be anything more than corrupted without being changed, i.e - resurrection. 

 

The body puts us in a carnal state and if we stick with the body and find glory in it then we will continue with it.  The body turns to dust whereas the spirit lives on.  Do we put our heart on things that turn to dust or is our treasure in heaven? 

 

Mosiah 16:"  10 Even this mortal shall put on ^aimmortality, and this ^bcorruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to ^cstand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—"   When we stand before God to be judged it will be in a state of incorruption after we have gotten rid of carnality (mortal body) and put on immortality, which is incorruption.  Then we will be judged by our works that occured while we had corruption on, whether they were good or bad.  At that point of judgement, every one of us, even those who did evil things are standing before God in a state of incorruption. For the one who has done evil, what has changed to now be in a state of incorruption?  The body. 

 

As Elder Bednar puts it; "And in this dispensation the Lord revealed that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (D&C 88:15). A truth that really is and always will be is that the body and the spirit constitute our reality and identity. When body and spirit are inseparably connected, we can receive a fulness of joy; when they are separated, we cannot receive a fulness of joy (see D&C 93:33–34)."

 

When is the body and spirit inseparably connected? Not in this life!  In this life, they are separated.  I agree with the desire to make the body and spirit inseparably connected but that does not happen in this life.  I think you are trying to suggest that we could make that happen in this life.  It cannot and will not, that would defeat the purpose of God for this life, 2 Nephi 2: " 11 For it must needs be, that there is an ^aopposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility."

 

Why do you want it to be as one body?  It would remain as dead if it were that way, as the scripture says, there could be no life neither death nor corruption nor incorruption, if the body and spirit were "one body" in this life.

 

The goal of integrating them is a good one, I am not arguing that. I am just arguing the idea that it is supposed to happen in this life - it wouldn't be mortality then, we wouldn't be fallen, we would remain as dead. While in this life the body and spirit are in opposition. Which one we choose to follow is the test.  I pray that everyone follows the spirit over the body.  I would not suggest that the body could be followed a little here and there, I would counsel that the spirit should be folllowed all the time, even though I know that we fail to do it because the spirit is willing but the body presents weakness.  Even the Apostles who spent their days with Christ had weak bodies that pulled away from the spirit.

[Traveler]

I already said that I don't disagree with that statement that many physical traits could be used for good or evil (I guess I wouldnt use the word "every" as you have).  But I think it is better to say it the other way around, it is good to integrate the spirit into the body, in other words the master is the spirit, not the body, then it might be good.  If the body is the master then it is not good.  Similar to the grafting of a wild branch into the tree with roots that are pure, if the wild overpowers the roots then it is evil, if the roots overpower the wild branch and exert its influence then it is good. Jacob 5; " 37 But behold, the wild branches have grown and have ^aoverrun the roots thereof; and because that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit; and because that it hath brought forth so much evil fruit thou beholdest that it beginneth to perish; and it will soon become ripened, that it may be cast into the fire, except we should do something for it to preserve it."  (even though I know this is being used to describe Gentiles and Jews, the metophor is good).

 

I think I explained myself as good as I can with this corrrupted brain of mine that I have to use to express myself.

 

How have we established the divine possibility of our physical nature other than to say that our current physical nature will turn to dust and we will one day get a new physical nature that will be glorified and perfected like God's?   How in the world (no pun intended) is that establishing the divine possibility of our current corrupted, carnal, sensual body?  You are saying it is divine because one day it will be switched out for a divine one?  That really doesn't make sense to me.  Now, yes, the lessons learned from this fallen body, that are learned spiritually can be divine.  But that is not the same thing as saying our current, fallen, corrupted body can be anything more than corrupted without being changed, i.e - resurrection. 

 

The body puts us in a carnal state and if we stick with the body and find glory in it then we will continue with it.  The body turns to dust whereas the spirit lives on.  Do we put our heart on things that turn to dust or is our treasure in heaven? 

 

Mosiah 16:"  10 Even this mortal shall put on ^aimmortality, and this ^bcorruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to ^cstand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—"   When we stand before God to be judged it will be in a state of incorruption after we have gotten rid of carnality (mortal body) and put on immortality, which is incorruption.  Then we will be judged by our works that occured while we had corruption on, whether they were good or bad.  At that point of judgement, every one of us, even those who did evil things are standing before God in a state of incorruption. For the one who has done evil, what has changed to now be in a state of incorruption?  The body. 

 

As Elder Bednar puts it; "And in this dispensation the Lord revealed that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (D&C 88:15). A truth that really is and always will be is that the body and the spirit constitute our reality and identity. When body and spirit are inseparably connected, we can receive a fulness of joy; when they are separated, we cannot receive a fulness of joy (see D&C 93:33–34)."

 

When is the body and spirit inseparably connected? Not in this life!  In this life, they are separated.  I agree with the desire to make the body and spirit inseparably connected but that does not happen in this life.  I think you are trying to suggest that we could make that happen in this life.  It cannot and will not, that would defeat the purpose of God for this life, 2 Nephi 2: " 11 For it must needs be, that there is an ^aopposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility."

 

Why do you want it to be as one body?  It would remain as dead if it were that way, as the scripture says, there could be no life neither death nor corruption nor incorruption, if the body and spirit were "one body" in this life.

 

The goal of integrating them is a good one, I am not arguing that. I am just arguing the idea that it is supposed to happen in this life - it wouldn't be mortality then, we wouldn't be fallen, we would remain as dead. While in this life the body and spirit are in opposition. Which one we choose to follow is the test.  I pray that everyone follows the spirit over the body.  I would not suggest that the body could be followed a little here and there, I would counsel that the spirit should be folllowed all the time, even though I know that we fail to do it because the spirit is willing but the body presents weakness.  Even the Apostles who spent their days with Christ had weak bodies that pulled away from the spirit.

 

I do not believe that problem is so much the physical as it is the spirit because a spirit is the life of the physical.  It is the spirit that is corrupted that brings the soul (the union of the physical with the spirit) to sin.  The body will not go anywhere that the spirit does not allow.  For this reason I think you have interperted everything to come up with the wrong conclusion.  The choice is not between physical and spirit - the choice and agency is all about what spiritual influence we follow - be it a spirit of G-d or a spirit of Satan.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I do not believe that problem is so much the physical as it is the spirit because a spirit is the life of the physical.  It is the spirit that is corrupted that brings the soul (the union of the physical with the spirit) to sin.  The body will not go anywhere that the spirit does not allow.  For this reason I think you have interperted everything to come up with the wrong conclusion.  The choice is not between physical and spirit - the choice and agency is all about what spiritual influence we follow - be it a spirit of G-d or a spirit of Satan.

Your premise that "the body will not go anywhere that the spirit does not allow" is where, I think, you are wrong and probably the fundamental difference in our view of this topic.

 

The Apostles sleeping despite their desire to stay awake and pray is a scriptoral example of this that I have used over and over again.  Do you believe the Apostles wanted to sleep on a spiritual level while in the Garden with Christ and that the scripture is wrong that says "the spirit is willing"?

 

When a new born suckles from day number one or cries, you want to say that the spirit is initiating those actions and drives?

 

I agree that "a choice", any choice based in agency is that of the spirit's to make.  All judgements will come from what the spirit decided even if it is not capable of doing the thing.  If the Apostle's spirit was to stay awake and yet their natural man took over and they could not overcome it, they are not going to be judged harshly for that because the choice made was to stay awake.  God judges the desire of the heart whether it is possible or not.

 

If a person with Tourette's syndrome yells out some explicatives in the middle of Sacrament meeting, you are suggesting the spirit should be able to overpower that? 

 

I am not the one who has come up with these concepts which you so readily want to attribute to me because I think it is easier for you to reject it that way.  I have shown you that David O. Mckay, a prophet of God, Elder Bednar, an Apostle of God and Paul, an Apostle of God have all discussed this topic in very specific terms. So, when you reject that idea, then realize you are rejecting their descriptions, not just mine.

 

Teachings of David O. McKay; "Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual. Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. ... The question, then, is: Which will give the more abundant life—pampering our physical nature or developing our spiritual selves? Is not that the real problem?"

David O. McKay; "There is something higher than the animal life; namely, the spiritual realm where there is love, the divinest attribute of the human soul. There are also sympathy, kindness and other attributes.⁵

There is something within [man] which urges him to rise above himself, to control his environment, to master the body and all things physical and live in a higher and more beautiful world.^6"

 

The body has to be mastered, controlled but that is not the natural state. The natural state is when the body is in control.

 

Elder Bednar, April 2013; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."

 

Elder Bednar says we should bridle ALL the passions of the flesh!!!!!  He says in very specific terms that that is the test we face, will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, putting off the natural man.  What does it mean to you to put off the natural man?  It means that we start out with it on. 

 

Elder Bednar, April 2013; "Because a physical body is so central to the Father’s plan of happiness and our spiritual development, Lucifer seeks to frustrate our progression by tempting us to use our bodies improperly. One of the ultimate ironies of eternity is that the adversary, who is miserable precisely because he has no physical body, entices us to share in his misery through the improper use of our bodies. The very tool he does not have is thus the primary target of his attempts to lure us to spiritual destruction."

 

According to Elder Bednar, an Apostle of God (not from me); The body "is thus the PRIMARY TARGET of his attempts to lure us to spiritual destruction."  !!!!!

 

Accept it. Don't reject it.

[Traveler]

Your premise that "the body will not go anywhere that the spirit does not allow" is where, I think, you are wrong and probably the fundamental difference in our view of this topic.

 

The Apostles sleeping despite their desire to stay awake and pray is a scriptoral example of this that I have used over and over again.  Do you believe the Apostles wanted to sleep on a spiritual level while in the Garden with Christ and that the scripture is wrong that says "the spirit is willing"?

 

When a new born suckles from day number one or cries, you want to say that the spirit is initiating those actions and drives?

 

I agree that "a choice", any choice based in agency is that of the spirit's to make.  All judgements will come from what the spirit decided even if it is not capable of doing the thing.  If the Apostle's spirit was to stay awake and yet their natural man took over and they could not overcome it, they are not going to be judged harshly for that because the choice made was to stay awake.  God judges the desire of the heart whether it is possible or not.

 

If a person with Tourette's syndrome yells out some explicatives in the middle of Sacrament meeting, you are suggesting the spirit should be able to overpower that? 

 

I am not the one who has come up with these concepts which you so readily want to attribute to me because I think it is easier for you to reject it that way.  I have shown you that David O. Mckay, a prophet of God, Elder Bednar, an Apostle of God and Paul, an Apostle of God have all discussed this topic in very specific terms. So, when you reject that idea, then realize you are rejecting their descriptions, not just mine.

 

Teachings of David O. McKay; "Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual. Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. ... The question, then, is: Which will give the more abundant life—pampering our physical nature or developing our spiritual selves? Is not that the real problem?"

David O. McKay; "There is something higher than the animal life; namely, the spiritual realm where there is love, the divinest attribute of the human soul. There are also sympathy, kindness and other attributes.⁵

There is something within [man] which urges him to rise above himself, to control his environment, to master the body and all things physical and live in a higher and more beautiful world.^6"

 

The body has to be mastered, controlled but that is not the natural state. The natural state is when the body is in control.

 

Elder Bednar, April 2013; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).

The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."

 

Elder Bednar says we should bridle ALL the passions of the flesh!!!!!  He says in very specific terms that that is the test we face, will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, putting off the natural man.  What does it mean to you to put off the natural man?  It means that we start out with it on. 

 

Elder Bednar, April 2013; "Because a physical body is so central to the Father’s plan of happiness and our spiritual development, Lucifer seeks to frustrate our progression by tempting us to use our bodies improperly. One of the ultimate ironies of eternity is that the adversary, who is miserable precisely because he has no physical body, entices us to share in his misery through the improper use of our bodies. The very tool he does not have is thus the primary target of his attempts to lure us to spiritual destruction."

 

According to Elder Bednar, an Apostle of God (not from me); The body "is thus the PRIMARY TARGET of his attempts to lure us to spiritual destruction."  !!!!!

 

Accept it. Don't reject it.

 

I believe you have missed one of the simplest concepts about the plan of salvation.  Our physical body is nothing more than a tabernacle for the spirit.  Without which there is no life.  Because our physical tabernacle is mortal it can shut down, it can die and it can tire – but it cannot of its own perform the functions and responsibilities of a living being without a spirit.  Yes – you are right our mortal bodies can tire and go to sleep but until the spirit that is operating it is cognizant – there is no sin and no accountability.    It is only through the corruption of the spirit that sin is possible – if this were not so then children would be accountable.

 

Satan may target our mortal bodies but it is the spirit and to be the G-d of that spirit that is his objective.  Note that Elder Bednar validates this simple doctrine in warning us of that Satan's reason in tempting our spirits in the improper use as his primary target in order to cause spiritual (not physical) destruction.  Note the two words, ”improper use” - not any use – meaning proper use is possible – and what is controlling that use?  It is our spirits,

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe you have missed one of the simplest concepts about the plan of salvation.  Our physical body is nothing more than a tabernacle for the spirit.  Without which there is no life.  Because our physical tabernacle is mortal it can shut down, it can die and it can tire – but it cannot of its own perform the functions and responsibilities of a living being without a spirit.  Yes – you are right our mortal bodies can tire and go to sleep but until the spirit that is operating it is cognizant – there is no sin and no accountability.    It is only through the corruption of the spirit that sin is possible – if this were not so then children would be accountable.

 

Satan may target our mortal bodies but it is the spirit and to be the G-d of that spirit that is his objective.  Note that Elder Bednar validates this simple doctrine in warning us of that Satan's reason in tempting our spirits in the improper use as his primary target in order to cause spiritual (not physical) destruction.  Note the two words, ”improper use” - not any use – meaning proper use is possible – and what is controlling that use?  It is our spirits,

I dont disagree with anything you are saying here but that is not what we were talking about.  You were trying to suggest that our spirits start out corrupted, that we are born corrupted.  I have always stated that the spirit can become corrupted, when it takes on the characteristics of the body.  And I have stated that that is not possible until the age of accountability, which now you are seemingly agreeing with. And that is why the spirits of those that are under the age of accountability have received special protection from those effects. The spirits of children under the age of 8 are pure and innocent.

 

When a 3 year old killed his sister with a gun (recently in the news) was that a sin?  And was the spirit cognizant in that 3 year old?  Who or what decided to point the gun at his sister?  The spirit, the body or some evil spirit, or what?   We are born into corrupted bodies.  How much accountability any one person has at any stage in their life is up to God to know and to judge because only He knows all those variables. 

 

If a person is druged, unknowingly, and then goes on a rampage killing people, who or what is responsible?  If a tree branch falls on a person's head, they bleed into their head and then have a seizure some future date related to the bleed in the head, killing people while driving, whose fault is that?  If an 87 year old, in his confused Alzheimer's brain, steps on the gas while people are crossing the street in front of her and runs over innocent people, is that some evil spirit?  The human brain can act without having responsibility of itself as it is only doing what it was designed to do. The brain is not responsible for certain acts.  Was it a sin for the Apostles to sleep or not?  If not, the brain acted in a way contrary to what the Lord wanted and they were not responsible.  "forgive them for they know not what they do" is a very important phrase suggesting that there are things that can be done without knowing that are offenses - things that would require forgiveness. How can one offend without knowing - the natural man is an enemy to God, that is how.

[Traveler]

I dont disagree with anything you are saying here but that is not what we were talking about.  You were trying to suggest that our spirits start out corrupted, that we are born corrupted.  I have always stated that the spirit can become corrupted, when it takes on the characteristics of the body.  And I have stated that that is not possible until the age of accountability, which now you are seemingly agreeing with. And that is why the spirits of those that are under the age of accountability have received special protection from those effects. The spirits of children under the age of 8 are pure and innocent.

 

When a 3 year old killed his sister with a gun (recently in the news) was that a sin?  And was the spirit cognizant in that 3 year old?  Who or what decided to point the gun at his sister?  The spirit, the body or some evil spirit, or what?   We are born into corrupted bodies.  How much accountability any one person has at any stage in their life is up to God to know and to judge because only He knows all those variables. 

 

If a person is druged, unknowingly, and then goes on a rampage killing people, who or what is responsible?  If a tree branch falls on a person's head, they bleed into their head and then have a seizure some future date related to the bleed in the head, killing people while driving, whose fault is that?  If an 87 year old, in his confused Alzheimer's brain, steps on the gas while people are crossing the street in front of her and runs over innocent people, is that some evil spirit?  The human brain can act without having responsibility of itself as it is only doing what it was designed to do. The brain is not responsible for certain acts.  Was it a sin for the Apostles to sleep or not?  If not, the brain acted in a way contrary to what the Lord wanted and they were not responsible.  "forgive them for they know not what they do" is a very important phrase suggesting that there are things that can be done without knowing that are offenses - things that would require forgiveness. How can one offend without knowing - the natural man is an enemy to God, that is how.

 

I believe that the fall is a corrupted spiritual state.  That part of the plan of salvation was to suffer a spiritually corrupt state and require the atonement to be restored and return to the Father.

 

As to various deeds - if it were not for the atonement of Christ that suffered for all sins - it would not matter if the human brain functioned properly or not - we would all be damned forever for our deeds and spiritual corrupton.  Including children.  I believe the atonement is that important and that necessary for everyone - including children.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe that the fall is a corrupted spiritual state.  That part of the plan of salvation was to suffer a spiritually corrupt state and require the atonement to be restored and return to the Father.

 

As to various deeds - if it were not for the atonement of Christ that suffered for all sins - it would not matter if the human brain functioned properly or not - we would all be damned forever for our deeds and spiritual corrupton.  Including children.  I believe the atonement is that important and that necessary for everyone - including children.

The fall becomes a corrupted state for all those who are old enough to be accountable and have the law and sin.  You cannot state it as such without those exceptions otherwise you believe that God is a respector of persons.  There is protection from the Fall.  If there is not such a thing then you would have to say that Christ was so affected also. There is special protection given to children such that they never are spiritually corrupted. This is a strong LDS belief and is taught in scripture and by modern day leaders in conference. Spiritual corruption, therefore, is not a requirement for salvation. To be pure, like a child, is a requirement for salvation.

 

Moroni 8; "8 ^aListen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the ^bwhole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little ^cchildren are ^dwhole, for they are not capable of committing ^esin; wherefore the curse of ^fAdam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of ^gcircumcision is done away in me.

 9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn ^amockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

 10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are ^aaccountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little ^bchildren, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

 11 And their little ^achildren need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the ^bremission of sins.

 12 But little ^achildren are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a ^brespecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!" ... " 19 Little ^achildren cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his ^bmercy."

 

Little children are alive in Christ and have never "suffered spiritual corruption" and they are alive in Him because of his mercy and sanctified by the atonement. If one is spiritually corrupt then repentence is the only way for the atonement to work in a persons life.   Since little children do not need to repent, the way the atonement works in their lives is through the mercy of the Lord. The reason they are not spiritually corrupted is because of the special protection they receive to never be corrupted from this world and based in His mercy and the fact that corruption occurs in those that can sin, who have the law. So, just because the atonement has worked to allow them to be saved does not mean that at some point they were spiritually corrupt.  It is alive in them without them being spiritually corrupt.  I think you are jumping to the conclusion that because the atonement is needed for everyone they must be corrupt.  This is false. The atonement has to take place but not corruption of the spirit.

 

D&C 29; little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world. From the beginning they were redeemed, meaning they never suffered any kind of spiritual corruption.

 

If you think so strongly that spiritual corruption "has to" take place for salvation then explain to me when and how Jesus Christ suffered spiritual corruption...

 

I like the metaphor used in Mosiah 3: " 18 For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy; but men drink ^adamnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and ^bbecome as little children, and believe that ^csalvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the ^datoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent."  Men have to "drink damnation to their own souls".  Damnation is introduced into the soul by not remaining as a child, humble and obedient.  It doesn't start out in the soul already, it has to be "drunk in".

 

Merlin Lybbert general conference 1994, "The special status of children"; "Because all children who die before the age of accountability are pure, innocent, and wholly sin-free, they are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven (see D&C 137:10; Mosiah 3:18).", "It is my witness that our kind and loving Heavenly Father has made special allowances for little children, consistent with their innocence and the eternal principle of agency."

[Traveler]

If the spirits of children were not corrupted - children would not need the atonement of Christ.

 

So am I to understand that you believe children do not benefit spiritually from the atonement?  If they were pure in the sense that you are interperting then what is the benefit or need of Christ's sacrifice for those that are already pure?  Or is it possible that children do not need Christ to mediate for them?

 

And another question.  When a person is born of the spirit - is there a physical change or a spiritual change?   When the scriptures call to awake - is that to physically wake up or spiritually change and become aware.  Is baptism an ordance for just a physical birth or spiritual birth also?

[Traveler]

...

 

If you think so strongly that spiritual corruption "has to" take place for salvation then explain to me when and how Jesus Christ suffered spiritual corruption...

 

...

 

I consider that to be without the Father to be a spiritial corruption.  When Jesus was on the cross he cried out (in verse 46 of Chater 27 of Matthew

 

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

Not only did Jesus sacrifice his physical body (death) he sacrificed his spirit as well (second death) when he was spiritually forsaken of his Father - The atonement was both physical and spiritual and was necessary that he can confort, forgive and raise us up in all things that we suffer.  Just as he was able to raise up his physical he was able to raise up his spirit as well having power over death.  The atonement of Christ was infinite - meaning in part, not just physical.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If the spirits of children were not corrupted - children would not need the atonement of Christ.

 

So am I to understand that you believe children do not benefit spiritually from the atonement?  If they were pure in the sense that you are interperting then what is the benefit or need of Christ's sacrifice for those that are already pure?  Or is it possible that children do not need Christ to mediate for them?

 

And another question.  When a person is born of the spirit - is there a physical change or a spiritual change?   When the scriptures call to awake - is that to physically wake up or spiritually change and become aware.  Is baptism an ordance for just a physical birth or spiritual birth also?

The benefit from the atonement for children is that they remain pure and innocent and they remain protected from the effects of the Fall, spiritually, until they are at the age of accountability.  After the age of accountability, to take advantage of the atonement, one would have to repent.  Repentance is for someone who has sinned.  Children cannot sin.

 

The answer to your second part is a change of heart which is to say to which aspect of our dual being we follow, the carnal or the spiritual.  A good article about this is by David Hellum entitled "Putting off the Natural Man; How to be Born of God" on LDS.org  Alma asked this same question to the members of the church in his day (Alma 5); Have you been spiritually born, have you had a mighty change of heart? David Hellum explains; "

Such a response would not be unusual. It is not uncommon to be unsure what Alma means when he refers to being spiritually born of God. To understand and appreciate, on a personal level, what he means, we must seek the guidance of the Spirit, so that the message will reach deep into our hearts and not just into our minds. To do this, we must set aside the philosophies we have learned from the world and feast upon the holy scriptures.

As we try to understand Alma’s meaning, we will consider three aspects of his question: spiritual rebirth as a separate experience that does not necessarily occur at the time of water baptism or the laying on the hands, the changes that occur when this rebirth takes place, and the necessary conditions that bring about this transformation."

 

While in mortality we are dual beings.  The amount of spirituality vs. carnality one has depends on how much one listens and follows the promptings from their carnal nature (the body) vs. the spirit.  The relative leanings of a person towards carnality vs. spirit is a wide spectrum that changes from moment to moment, i.e. - when one feels the spirit, the spiritual side of one's nature is slightly stronger at that time. If one walks into a bar and starts drinking alcohol, one leans towards the carnal and its influences. "Change" usually refers to a change of heart.  The hearts desire is where on that spectrum between carnality and spirituality one would like to be, irregardless of where they currently are.  When one is first, and naturally so, driven towards carnal things and then realizes their mistake and starts to be driven towards spiritual goals then they have awoken spiritually and have had a change of heart.  The spirit itself has not necesarily changed other than to be more readily recognized.  As one begins to learn to choose the spirit over the carnal then one changes spiritually.  This is the definition of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. 

 

The brethren often refer to this as something "written" in our heart -when there has been a change to the spirit itself.  D. Todd Christopherson explains; "Do you want this for yourself? I can tell you how that can happen, but it must be something you want. The gospel cannot be written in your heart unless your heart is open. Without a heartfelt desire, you can participate in sacrament meetings, classes, and Church activities and do the things I will tell you, but it won’t make much difference. But if your heart is open and willing, like the heart of a child,² let me tell you what you can do to be converted."  He then goes onto explain that one has to reject the things of this world (i.e. - reject the promptings of the body, put away pride), study and pray. 

 

I am assuming that all the children that die before the age of accountability would have been spiritually reborn if they were faced with such a task past the age of accountability.  But as they are protected they automatically pass those requirements.

[Traveler]

The benefit from the atonement for children is that they remain pure and innocent and they remain protected from the effects of the Fall, spiritually, until they are at the age of accountability.  After the age of accountability, to take advantage of the atonement, one would have to repent.  Repentance is for someone who has sinned.  Children cannot sin.

 

The answer to your second part is a change of heart which is to say to which aspect of our dual being we follow, the carnal or the spiritual.  A good article about this is by David Hellum entitled "Putting off the Natural Man; How to be Born of God" on LDS.org  Alma asked this same question to the members of the church in his day (Alma 5); Have you been spiritually born, have you had a mighty change of heart? David Hellum explains; "

Such a response would not be unusual. It is not uncommon to be unsure what Alma means when he refers to being spiritually born of God. To understand and appreciate, on a personal level, what he means, we must seek the guidance of the Spirit, so that the message will reach deep into our hearts and not just into our minds. To do this, we must set aside the philosophies we have learned from the world and feast upon the holy scriptures.

As we try to understand Alma’s meaning, we will consider three aspects of his question: spiritual rebirth as a separate experience that does not necessarily occur at the time of water baptism or the laying on the hands, the changes that occur when this rebirth takes place, and the necessary conditions that bring about this transformation."

 

While in mortality we are dual beings.  The amount of spirituality vs. carnality one has depends on how much one listens and follows the promptings from their carnal nature (the body) vs. the spirit.  The relative leanings of a person towards carnality vs. spirit is a wide spectrum that changes from moment to moment, i.e. - when one feels the spirit, the spiritual side of one's nature is slightly stronger at that time. If one walks into a bar and starts drinking alcohol, one leans towards the carnal and its influences. "Change" usually refers to a change of heart.  The hearts desire is where on that spectrum between carnality and spirituality one would like to be, irregardless of where they currently are.  When one is first, and naturally so, driven towards carnal things and then realizes their mistake and starts to be driven towards spiritual goals then they have awoken spiritually and have had a change of heart.  The spirit itself has not necesarily changed other than to be more readily recognized.  As one begins to learn to choose the spirit over the carnal then one changes spiritually.  This is the definition of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. 

 

The brethren often refer to this as something "written" in our heart -when there has been a change to the spirit itself.  D. Todd Christopherson explains; "Do you want this for yourself? I can tell you how that can happen, but it must be something you want. The gospel cannot be written in your heart unless your heart is open. Without a heartfelt desire, you can participate in sacrament meetings, classes, and Church activities and do the things I will tell you, but it won’t make much difference. But if your heart is open and willing, like the heart of a child,² let me tell you what you can do to be converted."  He then goes onto explain that one has to reject the things of this world (i.e. - reject the promptings of the body, put away pride), study and pray. 

 

I am assuming that all the children that die before the age of accountability would have been spiritually reborn if they were faced with such a task past the age of accountability.  But as they are protected they automatically pass those requirements.

I believe you could not be more wrong.  Children are affected by the fall.  They suffer and experience physical pain as well as a mortal physical state that allows death.  Likewise your insistence that children do not suffer any spiritual inconvenience being separated from the Father is so obviously wrong I am not sure how to respond. 

 

You insist that sin is necessary in order to suffer anything spiritually.  Beyond what I have attempted to demonstrate that a spirit; no longer in the presents of the Father, is in a state of great disadvantage – or as I have stated a less than 100 % ideal spiritual condition is by definition a corrupted state.  Your insistence that children cannot experience any spiritual difference from being in the presents of the Father and not being in the presents of the Father is beyond my understanding and experience. 

 

Are you not aware that Jesus cast out an unclean spirit from a child that the parents said had suffered from the effects of that unclean spirit since the child was an infant?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe you could not be more wrong.  Children are affected by the fall.  They suffer and experience physical pain as well as a mortal physical state that allows death.  Likewise your insistence that children do not suffer any spiritual inconvenience being separated from the Father is so obviously wrong I am not sure how to respond. 

 

You insist that sin is necessary in order to suffer anything spiritually.  Beyond what I have attempted to demonstrate that a spirit; no longer in the presents of the Father, is in a state of great disadvantage – or as I have stated a less than 100 % ideal spiritual condition is by definition a corrupted state.  Your insistence that children cannot experience any spiritual difference from being in the presents of the Father and not being in the presents of the Father is beyond my understanding and experience. 

 

Are you not aware that Jesus cast out an unclean spirit from a child that the parents said had suffered from the effects of that unclean spirit since the child was an infant?

If you want to change the words to something else, I don't know how to respond to that.  What is "spiritual inconvenience"?  The veil???

 

Yes, everyone who is born into this world is behind the veil.  I suppose that would be considered spiritual inconvenience but that does not translate into spiritual corruption.  Spiritual corruption would have to be something that is continued when the person dies with their spirit alone.  If children were spiritually corrupt and then died before the age of 8 they would have to go to spirit prison.  Either they are corrupt or they are not.  You can't have it both ways.

 

The mortal body is corrupted.  Children in this world are born with corrupted bodies.  Jesus was given power to heal the body and to remove the "evil spirits" from the body.  Removing of evil spirits and healing the body are used interchangeably in the scriptures. That would be a topic for another thread.

 

Before Christ was born He achieved a state of glory as a spirit alone, without a body.  When He was born into a mortal body, did His glorious spirit change?  No!  He is the same person!  But because we understand that in this life we are dual beings, the sum of which or that which the world sees, is mostly the fleshy person, the outer man.  The world does not see the inner man.  Is there a difference between the outer man and the inner man?  Absolutely.  You want to suggest there is no difference, that a corrupted body is a corrupted spirit.  You could not be any more wrong!  Who sinned to make the blind man blind? Nobody, because the blind body is not the individual who has the body.  The body does not reflect the spiritual status of an individual while in this life in a one-to-one fashion.  Those that are born with Down's syndrome do not spiritually have Down's syndrome. 

 

You need to be careful in suggesting that children's spirits are corrupted as Moroni warned.  Bruce R. McConkie; "Since there is no such thing as original sin, as that expression is used in modern Christendom, it follows that children are not conceived in sin. They do not come into the world with any taint of impurity whatever. When our scriptures say that “children are conceived in sin,” they are using words in an entirely different way than when the same language is recited in the creeds of the world. The scriptural meaning is that they are born into a world of sin so that “when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.” (Moses 6:55.)" and "Our revelation says: “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning”—meaning that spirits started out in a state of purity and innocence in preexistence—“and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God” (D&C 93:38)—meaning that all children start out their mortal probation in purity and innocence because of the atonement. Our revelations also say, “The Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.” (Moses 6:54.)"

 

What does it mean to you that they are "whole from the foundation of the world" and "every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning"?

 

Bruce R. McConkie talking about how little children are saved if they die before the age of accountability; "They are saved through the atonement and because they are free from sin. They come from God in purity; no sin or taint attaches to them in this life; and they return in purity to their Maker. Accountable persons must become pure through repentance and baptism and obedience. Those who are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced. Hence the expression that little children are alive in Christ. “Little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten,” the Lord says. (D&C 29:46.)"

 

There you have it, either agree with the Apostle or not, they "never" fall spiritually.

[Traveler]

If you want to change the words to something else, I don't know how to respond to that.  What is "spiritual inconvenience"?  The veil???

 

Yes, everyone who is born into this world is behind the veil.  I suppose that would be considered spiritual inconvenience but that does not translate into spiritual corruption.  Spiritual corruption would have to be something that is continued when the person dies with their spirit alone.  If children were spiritually corrupt and then died before the age of 8 they would have to go to spirit prison.  Either they are corrupt or they are not.  You can't have it both ways.

 

The mortal body is corrupted.  Children in this world are born with corrupted bodies.  Jesus was given power to heal the body and to remove the "evil spirits" from the body.  Removing of evil spirits and healing the body are used interchangeably in the scriptures. That would be a topic for another thread.

 

Before Christ was born He achieved a state of glory as a spirit alone, without a body.  When He was born into a mortal body, did His glorious spirit change?  No!  He is the same person!  But because we understand that in this life we are dual beings, the sum of which or that which the world sees, is mostly the fleshy person, the outer man.  The world does not see the inner man.  Is there a difference between the outer man and the inner man?  Absolutely.  You want to suggest there is no difference, that a corrupted body is a corrupted spirit.  You could not be any more wrong!  Who sinned to make the blind man blind? Nobody, because the blind body is not the individual who has the body.  The body does not reflect the spiritual status of an individual while in this life in a one-to-one fashion.  Those that are born with Down's syndrome do not spiritually have Down's syndrome. 

 

You need to be careful in suggesting that children's spirits are corrupted as Moroni warned.  Bruce R. McConkie; "Since there is no such thing as original sin, as that expression is used in modern Christendom, it follows that children are not conceived in sin. They do not come into the world with any taint of impurity whatever. When our scriptures say that “children are conceived in sin,” they are using words in an entirely different way than when the same language is recited in the creeds of the world. The scriptural meaning is that they are born into a world of sin so that “when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.” (Moses 6:55.)" and "Our revelation says: “Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning”—meaning that spirits started out in a state of purity and innocence in preexistence—“and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God” (D&C 93:38)—meaning that all children start out their mortal probation in purity and innocence because of the atonement. Our revelations also say, “The Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.” (Moses 6:54.)"

 

What does it mean to you that they are "whole from the foundation of the world" and "every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning"?

 

Bruce R. McConkie talking about how little children are saved if they die before the age of accountability; "They are saved through the atonement and because they are free from sin. They come from God in purity; no sin or taint attaches to them in this life; and they return in purity to their Maker. Accountable persons must become pure through repentance and baptism and obedience. Those who are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced. Hence the expression that little children are alive in Christ. “Little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten,” the Lord says. (D&C 29:46.)"

 

There you have it, either agree with the Apostle or not, they "never" fall spiritually.

I disagree with Apostle McConkie on a number of things including his now admitted flawed doctrine concerning Negroes as being unworthy in the pre-existence to have the priesthood in this life.  Do you agree with brother McConkie or not?

 

Two spiritual flaws suffered by all that come to earth and receive a body.

1. A veil of total and complete forgetfulness of our spiritual standing, abilities, talents, choices and even purpose.  When someone does not remember something by definition it means their memory is corrupted.  Without some corruption of our spirit our spirits would remember everything perfectly to the smallest detail.

2. Separation from the Father.  Another term for separation from the Father is damnation and still another term is hell and yet still another term is the second death or spiritual death.  I consider the condition of being away from the Father to be a flawed and fallen state from which children were redeemed.  Is spirit suffering spiritual death corrupted?

 

You keep quoting various scriptures saying “little children are redeemed”.  What are little children redeemed from?  We both know and agree it is not sin.

[The Folk Prophet]

I disagree with Apostle McConkie on a number of things including his now admitted flawed doctrine concerning Negroes as being unworthy in the pre-existence to have the priesthood in this life.  Do you agree with brother McConkie or not?

 

Two spiritual flaws suffered by all that come to earth and receive a body.

1. A veil of total and complete forgetfulness of our spiritual standing, abilities, talents, choices and even purpose.  When someone does not remember something by definition it means their memory is corrupted.  Without some corruption of our spirit our spirits would remember everything perfectly to the smallest detail.

2. Separation from the Father.  Another term for separation from the Father is damnation and still another term is hell and yet still another term is the second death or spiritual death.  I consider the condition of being away from the Father to be a flawed and fallen state from which children were redeemed.  Is spirit suffering spiritual death corrupted?

 

You keep quoting various scriptures saying “little children are redeemed”.  What are little children redeemed from?  We both know and agree it is not sin.

 

Sin is irrelevant to it. Little children suffer from both physical death and spiritual death when they leave the pre-existence and must be redeemed from both.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sin is irrelevant to it. Little children suffer from both physical death and spiritual death when they leave the pre-existence and must be redeemed from both.

They do not "suffer" from spiritual death, they are alive in Christ.  "Alive" is the opposite of death  Moroni 8; " 12 But little ^achildren are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a ^brespecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!"

[Seminarysnoozer]

I disagree with Apostle McConkie on a number of things including his now admitted flawed doctrine concerning Negroes as being unworthy in the pre-existence to have the priesthood in this life.  Do you agree with brother McConkie or not?

 

Two spiritual flaws suffered by all that come to earth and receive a body.

1. A veil of total and complete forgetfulness of our spiritual standing, abilities, talents, choices and even purpose.  When someone does not remember something by definition it means their memory is corrupted.  Without some corruption of our spirit our spirits would remember everything perfectly to the smallest detail.

2. Separation from the Father.  Another term for separation from the Father is damnation and still another term is hell and yet still another term is the second death or spiritual death.  I consider the condition of being away from the Father to be a flawed and fallen state from which children were redeemed.  Is spirit suffering spiritual death corrupted?

 

You keep quoting various scriptures saying “little children are redeemed”.  What are little children redeemed from?  We both know and agree it is not sin.

A veil means covering, not corrupted.  If I put a sheet over your computer screen, the computer does not become corrupted.  Again, we are dual beings, the one aspect of our dual being is behind a veil which doesn't allow it to act strongly.  It is difficult to access.  It is the same being as it was before.  Our spirits are the same as they were but the access is different.  It takes a lot of effort to listen to those spiritual influences. 

As Paul stated the thorn in the flesh is so that we don't exault ourselves above measure.  The test that we are now undergoing is at a lower level, a primitive level of character.  We already had the test related to intellect, the first estate test.  Now, we are in a fallen state, where the spirit is not ruler of the soul, so that we don't exault ourselves above measure and can be tested on some very primitive characteristics, to see if we will do the things we are asked to do despite not having all of our intellect.

 

I liken it to a soldier who is in bootcamp, when all faculties are available, says, "I swear to never leave a fallen soldier behind" but in the heat of the battle, when it is difficult to really think throuhg the situation and remember the things he was taught, does he really go back for the fallen fellow soldier or not.  That is a true test of character and integrety, if one actually does the thing they say they would when they are not in a convinient situation.

 

2. Yes, separation from the Father is not good but we have a lifeline, the light of Christ.  Why do you want to make Christ not so powerful.  He can provide the light, the saving healing we need, to not suffer.  If the scriptures say that children are alive in Christ, then He can do it!  Why do you disbelieve in the power of Christ so much?  When the scriptures say that children are alive in Christ, one should gain a testimony of the saving power of the atonement of Christ.  He can do it, as He did for children!  They are redeemed from the effects of spiritual death from the foundations of the world, meaning from the beginning.  They remain untainted, unaffected by spiritual death. They remain not corrupted.  Spiritual corruption begins with sin, there is no other definition.

We do not believe in original sin, not Adam's original sin or our own.  We all start this life clean and pure. We are all straight A students when we arrive here.  Yes, we have more to learn but this life is not a remedial course. This life is to move forward and onward.  It is not just to get us back to where we started, it is to move beyond where we started, beyond the straight A status of the first courses to become like God.  We move onto a second estate test.  The second estate test is not to fix things that occured in the first estate test.  We would otherwise have to say we failed the first estate test.  Everyone here has passed the first estate test, which is a test of our spiritual nature. Those that had flawed spiritual natures, as to becoming like God, were cast out before the foundations of this world. Permanent separation from the Father is damnation. We wouldn't come here if there wasn't a way out.  We all start with an opportunity to return to our Heavenly Father.  Children get that automatically, Christ' atonement saves them from having to work their way back through the principles of the gospel, faith, repentence, baptism, etc. We do not believe that a person has to work their way back until they reach the age of accountability, we do not believe in original sin.

 

I do not know how it works but I do believe in Christ' ability to negate the effects of the separation from the Father for children. I believe he has that saving power. I am not sure why you doubt His ability to do so.  

 

You need to be careful about making such statements as Mormon warned; "19 Little ^achildren cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his ^bmercy.

 20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the ^aatonement of him and the power of his redemption.

 21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, ^ahell, and an ^bendless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the ^cjudgment-seat of Christ."

 

I realize, after many conversations with you, that you have a very "by-the-book" thought process, rules are rules, but as Mormon said don't "deny the pure mercies of God."

[The Folk Prophet]

They do not "suffer" from spiritual death, they are alive in Christ.  "Alive" is the opposite of death  Moroni 8; " 12 But little ^achildren are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a ^brespecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!"

 

You're arguing with word play. It's not meaningful. Little children are separated from God when they come to earth life. Therefore they suffer from spiritual death. It's the literal definition of spiritual death. It's factual. They also suffer from mortality and, eventually, physical death. You're scripture quote does not negate the literal meanings of spiritual and physical death. You would have to prove that little children are still in the presence of God to make your argument fly.

[Seminarysnoozer]

You're arguing with word play. It's not meaningful. Little children are separated from God when they come to earth life. Therefore they suffer from spiritual death. It's the literal definition of spiritual death. It's factual. They also suffer from mortality and, eventually, physical death. You're scripture quote does not negate the literal meanings of spiritual and physical death. You would have to prove that little children are still in the presence of God to make your argument fly.

I am not arguing that they are not in the presence of God, I agree with that.  That isn't the point.  Traveler is trying to say that everyone that comes to this world becomes spiritually corrupted just by the process of leaving the presence of God.  I am saying that they are alive in Christ, they are kept from that corruption, they are protected from the effects of that separation. What power does the presence of God have that the presence of Christ cannot give?

There are many quotes from the brotheren that state that children are untainted from this experience.  They do not experience a spiritual fall. If they do not become tainted by this experience and they remain pure, how is it that they suffer spiritually?  Yes, they obtain corrupted physical bodies but the power of Satan has no influence on them.  That is a fact.