Tomboy worried about what other sisters will think

[Meerkatarmy]

So you love others more because you wear a skirt? Sounds like pride to me which is a sin and deffintly not humble or modest.

I am a social worker, I have dedicated my life to loving and helping people and I do not do it to look better in Gods eyes I do it as it is my calling and I get great joy helping people. I want to bring that to the church.

Nither of us are right and nither of us are wrong we just need to go forward in our own ways.

[Guest]

So you love others more because you wear a skirt? Sounds like pride to me which is a sin and deffintly not humble or modest.

No. I don't think you even tried to understand what I was saying.

It gets really frustrating to put a lot of contemplative thought into an advice in the Advice Board, spend quite some time forming such thoughts into one long cohesive response, making sure the English is correct and the paragraphs are comprehensible and that it is not offensive and expresses the care and respect for the question.... and this is what one gets out of it.

Edited March 4, 2014 by anatess

[Meerkatarmy]

I do understand the message you are conveying I just disagree with it. Your believe that if I dress in a skirt or dress it is showing love and consideration to other members by following the norm; you feel that the longer I am in the church my faith will grow and I will gain more love and consideration for members, I do not disagree with this I just don't feel it will manifest its self in the way I dress.

[Suzie]

But, showing up in a suit and tie that my husband wears... can unintentionally send the message "I want to be a dude"... which the OP said she doesn't want to be.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts. If you believe that it can unintentionally send that message, how do you think it will affect the members of the Church? In what specific ways?

People start with self aggrandizement. This is a product of our mortal estate. I need this, I'm more comfortable with this, I was born this way.

But Christ's gospel is all about Love. The greatest commandment besides Loving God with all our hearts is to Love Others as we Love Ourselves. The entirety of the scriptures are simply applications of these 2 great commandments - every single line of scripture.

So that, we start with self aggrandizement and as we grow in our testimony we start to Love Others as we Love Ourselves. So that, it's not what I need, what I'm comfortable with, what I'm born with anymore. You start to include Others - what they need, what they're comfortable with, what they're born with - and start sacrificing ourselves more so that others may find joy in Christ.

I'm thinking really hard here and still don't understand how the choice of dress in the OP is related to how we show love and sacrifice. Christ seems to have thought actually quite the opposite about those who look different and as the scripture was mentioned previously, he doesn't look at our outward appearance but our hearts. Why can't us, members of the Church show that love and sacrifice we talk about every Sunday as we accept and love someone who dresses differently?

Again, for me this particular issue it has nothing to do with the way she chooses to dress but with the fact that a gay woman who chooses to dress like a dude will be attending Church meetings and that will make some people clearly uncomfortable, I understand that but instead of expecting us to extend their love, support and encouragement to a new member (as we are taught) we expect her to change to make us feel comfortable. I believe that's the underlined issue.

Yes, women wearing skirts is a cultural tradition in the Church. But a whole slew of people find comfort and safety in tradition.

And that's perfectly, perfectly fine. If some members find safety in tradition it is not a problem at all, the issue only becomes one when those traditions are trying to be directly or indirectly imposed to others who do not feel the same way about those traditions and many times are trying to be disguised as if they were some sort of non-written doctrine or commandments.

Who knows, perhaps the OP one day will change her mind and dress with a skirt and perhaps she never will, my message is simple: No matter what people chooses to wear to Church, they should feel welcomed, accepted and loved. The onus isn't in them to change their clothing to make us comfortable. The onus is on us.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Suzie

[estradling75]

Again, for me this particular issue it has nothing to do with the way she chooses to dress but with the fact that a gay woman who chooses to dress like a dude will be attending Church meetings and that will make some people clearly uncomfortable, I understand that but instead of expecting us to extend their love, support and encouragement to a new member (as we are taught) we expect her to change to make us feel comfortable. I believe that's the underlined issue.

If someone choose to come to church naked or in their underwear... Then we would expect that to make alot of people uncomfortable. At the very least I think we could forgive many of them for thinking that the person isn't really trying to put there best foot forward out of respect for God. With this example we can see that the response to how we dress is not an absolute but a matter of degrees. Everyone is going to have a different point were they comfortable.

Now we have had lots of talk about tolerance. But tolerance needs to go both ways. A person might not understand why someone might have an issue with a woman not wearing traditional female apparel, but that person still needs to be treated by the person that does not understand with the same kind of Christ-like love and acceptance that the person that does not understand would expect to receive from them.

[Suzie]

If someone choose to come to church naked or in their underwear... Then we would expect that to make alot of people uncomfortable. At the very least I think we could forgive many of them for thinking that the person isn't really trying to put there best foot forward out of respect for God.

I agree, that's why I said in previous posts that the OP will be wearing modest clothing (and yes, the term modest is also up to personal opinion).

With this example we can see that the response to how we dress is not an absolute but a matter of degrees. Everyone is going to have a different point were they comfortable.

Absolutely.

Now we have had lots of talk about tolerance. But tolerance needs to go both ways. A person might not understand why someone might have an issue with a woman not wearing traditional female apparel, but that person still needs to be treated by the person that does not understand with the same kind of Christ-like love and acceptance that the person that does not understand would expect to receive from them.

I absolutely agree with your post, thanks for sharing that.

Perhaps, it will raise a few eyebrows but what a great opportunity for us to extend our love, support and appreciation.

[estradling75]

Perhaps, it will raise a few eyebrows but what a great opportunity for us to extend our love, support and appreciation.

And hopefully Sister Meerkatarmy will get exactly that.

But if she doesn't, or if there is just a few that sour the bunch. What a great opportunity for Sister Meerkatarmy to show her dedication to Christ by extending her love, support and appreciation to those of her fellow Brothers and Sisters whom Christ also loves without condition or limit.

[Meerkatarmy]

And hopefully Sister Meerkatarmy will get exactly that.

But if she doesn't, or if there is just a few that sour the bunch. What a great opportunity for Sister Meerkatarmy to show her dedication to Christ by extending her love, support and appreciation to those of her fellow Brothers and Sisters whom Christ also loves without condition or limit.

This is precisly what I will be doing, just as it is not their place to judge me it is not my place to judge them. I am not perfect the Lord knows this but I will try my best to always be kind, loving, supportive and accepting, I will no doubt fail at times and become frustrated or upset with people as they may with me but I will always ask the forgivnes of both the Lord

and the person themselves.

[Guest]

Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts. If you believe that it can unintentionally send that message, how do you think it will affect the members of the Church? In what specific ways?

I'm not sure I understand the question. The answer seems too simplistic for it to be your question.

How does wearing any kind of thing affect anybody else? Same answer. Why is there a dress code in a Military Ball? Why do sports teams wear uniforms? Why do you groom yourself and put on make-up to walk out of the house? Why "dress to impress" at job interviews? Why do Hollywood celebrities wear what they wear at Oscars? Why is it illegal to walk naked in public? Why do missionaries wear white shirts and a name tag?

Everybody has different answers to these questions. They don't all have the same answers. But one thing is certain - what you wear tells something about you. If that something matches who you want people to see you as, then all is good - a Missionary puts on that white shirt and name tag so people can see them and know immediately they're missionaries without a single word spoken. People see someone wearing a man's suit, they'll think immediately the person is a man without a word spoken. And with that assumption comes all the things attributed to men. If that's not who the person is, then there's an extra process one has to go through to get themselves understood by those around them. Because, just leaving it at that - without explanations - is confusing. And confusion is not good in any group of people.

I'm thinking really hard here and still don't understand how the choice of dress in the OP is related to how we show love and sacrifice. Christ seems to have thought actually quite the opposite about those who look different and as the scripture was mentioned previously, he doesn't look at our outward appearance but our hearts. Why can't us, members of the Church show that love and sacrifice we talk about every Sunday as we accept and love someone who dresses differently?

You don't see it because you only see the situation from one side. You see A vs. B and B has to accept A while A doesn't have to do anything. It stems from the expectation that B has to be perfect and A doesn't need to account for B's challenges. Christ's teachings is never one-sided as we are encouraged to love one another.

And - that's EXACTLY what I said in my post - the issue is not what you are wearing. The issue is the attitude that comes with what you're wearing. Because, I am seeing and feeling in this thread that "I want to wear pants and I don't care what you think" is an okay thing. "I want to wear pants and I'm going to help you see that it is okay" is a completely different thing.

By the way - have you read all my posts to this thread? Because there was never a time - in any of my posts - that I said that wearing pants is a bad thing. And it seems like in your posts, you're thinking that I believe one should not wear pants to Church.

Again, for me this particular issue it has nothing to do with the way she chooses to dress but with the fact that a gay woman who chooses to dress like a dude will be attending Church meetings and that will make some people clearly uncomfortable, I understand that but instead of expecting us to extend their love, support and encouragement to a new member (as we are taught) we expect her to change to make us feel comfortable. I believe that's the underlined issue.

I never said that. NEVER EVER. And my posts has nothing to do with her being lesbian. What I said was - you start off, as one without a testimony, thinking only of your comfort. Eventually, as your testimony grows, this will change to encompass other people. Now, members of the Church may already have testimonies, so it should be easier for them to go outside of themselves to encompass other people. But, this is not always the case especially if culture and tradition is rooted in that group of people. Because we all have our own challenges. Therefore, extending love and support cannot be one sided. Just like we need to encourage members to love and support those who don't conform to tradition, the other side is also true - the non-comformer must also be encouraged to love and support those who find safety in tradition.

And that's perfectly, perfectly fine. If some members find safety in tradition it is not a problem at all, the issue only becomes one when those traditions are trying to be directly or indirectly imposed to others who do not feel the same way about those traditions and many times are trying to be disguised as if they were some sort of non-written doctrine or commandments.

Who knows, perhaps the OP one day will change her mind and dress with a skirt and perhaps she never will, my message is simple: No matter what people chooses to wear to Church, they should feel welcomed, accepted and loved. The onus isn't in them to change their clothing to make us comfortable. The onus is on us.

And my message is simple - The onus to love and support is on everybody. The stronger the testimony, the stronger the desire to do just that.

And that's why I said - in a perfect world, one can walk in Church and feel welcomed, accepted, and loved wearing absolutely nothing. This is Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. Because, just because we are members does not mean we are perfect. Hence, what I said about the stronger your testimony becomes, the more you will desire to make others comfortable in addition to your own.

[Leah]

If a pair of pants distracts you from learning the scripture then how strong can their resolve be? Let he with no sin cast the first stone. I am not talking about going to church in multi-colourd clown pants just simple gray dress pants. I genuinely can not see a problem with this? Because it doesn't demonstrate me as good wife material? I think there are far bigger issues about me that would make me a rubbish wife than pants.

May be I am being niave but I am choosing to listen to the supportive posts and I will make my own mind up at church. But will take more than a few tuts and disapproving looks to push me away from the church.

Only posts that agree with everything you say are "supportive"? You are unwilling to hear points of view different than your own?

I see people here being loving and helpful (Anatess) and you dismiss anything they would have to say because they have a different point of view than your own. That's not uncommon on this forum, actually.

Did you come here looking for honest feedback or did you come here for approval of your point of view? That's not uncommon on this forum, either.

It's been made abundantly clear to you that no one is going to throw you out of church for wearing pants. But it is still true that it is more common for women to wear skirts in church. That's just how it is. But you are taking the minhag ha'makom (the custom of the place) and making it into something it is not, reading things in that aren't there, and making judgments about people. You don't want people to judge you for wearing pants, but you are passing judgment on the skirt-wearers.

Back to minhag ha'makom. I converted from Judaism. This was a concept that was taught as important...to respect the custom of the place. Whether it was someone's home (like not smoking in a non-smoking home) or a place of worship (respecting the customs of the individual places of worship), etc. So, as a Jew, if I went to an orthodox synagogue, the customs are different from a synagogue way over on the liberal end of the spectrum. Either way, you RESPECT the custom of the place. You don't go in expecting/demanding that everything be changed to your satisfaction (why even be there, if that is the case?).

I am NOT saying don't go to church in pants (although some will insist on seeing it that way). I am not saying it is "wrong" to go to church in pants (although some will insist that they know my mind better than I, and that that is what I am trying to say). I am not saying that the mere act of wearing pants is disrespectful (again, some will insist that I am saying otherwise).

I am saying that the attitude is more important than attire (but attire is not completely meaningless) and if you go with an attitude of judgment and condescension of those who think or dress differently than you....then you will get reactions to the attitude, not the manner of dress.

[Meerkatarmy]

How have I judged other people for what they choose to wear? In fact I said in my last post that it is deffintly not my place to judge.

As for cultures and having to change to be respectful of them, should all those members that live in America start drinking lots of coffee, alcohol, over eating of junk food and be promiscuous? Because that is the culture there?

I have been to Muslim countries where I have adapted my clothes to cover and be modest this mean wearing long trousers rather than shorts in a desert extremely hot country so I resent the implication I want the culture to change to fit me. The opposite is true I just want a place to worship and learn, wearing pants like half the congregation. If I declared I was going to go to church in a boob tube and hot pants would be disrespectful and against the scriptures as it isn't modest, that could perhaps be changing the culture but still a tenuous stretch.

I said I will listen to the positive posts because to the listen solely to the negitive could cloud my vision of the experience of church.

[Guest]

I believe the question has been answered. Thread closed.