Lds And Pro-choice

[Guest Yediyd]

Unless you're holding a transparent drawing of a prism on paper. B)

Yeah, I know, I just wanted to be stupid.

I've read too many of your post to believe that, CK. :)

Although, silly...I can accept.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Hey Yediyd,

Now you have to ask yourself this question:

Knowing the family into which you were going to be born, and saying now that you would have preferred to stay in your pre-mortal state rather then be born in this family, why did you choose to do so anyway?

-a-train

A-Train,

You got me thinking about my childhood; It was incredibly hard. But, I will say this, there was always some spiritual feeling there guiding me, even though my dad didnt have a clue. It is true, a physical parent can do more good, and more damage than the spirit. But the spirit can be a wonderful thing when times are really tough and when there is nobody else there. I had to think about your question you directed to Yediyd, would I go back to the spirit world? Nope.

Even in my darkest hours which I created myself through my own stupidity and short sightedness, I learned that even then, what I was made of. Burn off the crap from the world, and what you have left? What are you made of??? I was lucky enough to find out.

I wrote this poem way back in 2001, when I was about the worst I could be ...

-------------------------------

Crusade of Life

January 2001

In a day, a moment, the evil world crashed into my life.

Crashing and crashing, like a tide that never ebbs.

When it did, I had nothing, except the reason why.

I was rejected by my own congregation.

The reason why I crashed meant nothing to them.

There are people all around, but no one to help my situation.

I am an outcast with none of my own kind.

I am in a world where Buddha, Allah and Christ are dead.

Their truths, love, and kinship, I cannot find.

I am trapped by the reality of the world.

My progress is stopped by the pain.

There is no good here, their purpose is revealed.

I search for things so that I can forget.

I drive my car without the seatbelt on, maybe it will end?

I live from moment to moment, minute to minute.

I have become nothing except the dust of the earth.

This is my reality; it's why I stay close to my family.

Even when they shouldn't, they are there.

Everything else outside is just worldly.

My trust is healed and hope is found.

With more experience comes more knowledge.

Now I have hope to rebuild and rebound.

Knowledge begets the wisdom to start again.

The congregation's cries are now only slight sounds.

I am full of hope. I wish this life would never end.

The cause of God is in me, and all around.

Everything I am, is from everything I was, and experienced.

I am truly not lost. To me, I am found.

If I had a choice, to relive it all over again,

I would, because living life is part of the plan.

I can fall down and get up. This is how joy eclipses pain.

-------------------

I dont think I could give up the low points. If so, I wouldn't feel the joy I do now. Some of you know me from what I write. People that know me in person, might hear me say, " I am so lucky". And I am.

We regret the things our parents do, we may even regret the things that our spouses, or brothers and sisters do. But when we mature, we learn that its all to our advantage to know these things. If not now, then later.

So, what is this doing in a thread about abortion? Now there's a thought ... something Im sure A-train wanted to make a point of. Im impressed ... thank you.

Mark

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hey Yediyd,

Now you have to ask yourself this question:

Knowing the family into which you were going to be born, and saying now that you would have preferred to stay in your pre-mortal state rather then be born in this family, why did you choose to do so anyway?

-a-train

A-Train,

You got me thinking about my childhood; It was incredibly hard. But, I will say this, there was always some spiritual feeling there guiding me, even though my dad didnt have a clue. It is true, a physical parent can do more good, and more damage than the spirit. But the spirit can be a wonderful thing when times are really tough and when there is nobody else there. I had to think about your question you directed to Yediyd, would I go back to the spirit world? Nope.

Even in my darkest hours which I created myself through my own stupidity and short sightedness, I learned that even then, what I was made of. Burn off the crap from the world, and what you have left? What are you made of??? I was lucky enough to find out.

I wrote this poem way back in 2001, when I was about the worst I could be ...

-------------------------------

Crusade of Life

January 2001

In a day, a moment, the evil world crashed into my life.

Crashing and crashing, like a tide that never ebbs.

When it did, I had nothing, except the reason why.

I was rejected by my own congregation.

The reason why I crashed meant nothing to them.

There are people all around, but no one to help my situation.

I am an outcast with none of my own kind.

I am in a world where Buddha, Allah and Christ are dead.

Their truths, love, and kinship, I cannot find.

I am trapped by the reality of the world.

My progress is stopped by the pain.

There is no good here, their purpose is revealed.

I search for things so that I can forget.

I drive my car without the seatbelt on, maybe it will end?

I live from moment to moment, minute to minute.

I have become nothing except the dust of the earth.

This is my reality; it's why I stay close to my family.

Even when they shouldn't, they are there.

Everything else outside is just worldly.

My trust is healed and hope is found.

With more experience comes more knowledge.

Now I have hope to rebuild and rebound.

Knowledge begets the wisdom to start again.

The congregation's cries are now only slight sounds.

I am full of hope. I wish this life would never end.

The cause of God is in me, and all around.

Everything I am, is from everything I was, and experienced.

I am truly not lost. To me, I am found.

If I had a choice, to relive it all over again,

I would, because living life is part of the plan.

I can fall down and get up. This is how joy eclipses pain.

-------------------

I dont think I could give up the low points. If so, I wouldn't feel the joy I do now. Some of you know me from what I write. People that know me in person, might hear me say, " I am so lucky". And I am.

We regret the things our parents do, we may even regret the things that our spouses, or brothers and sisters do. But when we mature, we learn that its all to our advantage to know these things. If not now, then later.

So, what is this doing in a thread about abortion? Now there's a thought ... something Im sure A-train wanted to make a point of. Im impressed ... thank you.

Mark

You know what Wordflood, deep in my heart...I know that to be true...I guess I spoke from my pain up here. I did write a poem about this, but I won't post it, It is in my blog...The Mortal Test...I know that abortion is murder and wrong...and I know that my trials here are for a purpose...but when I think about a baby being born into the Hellish life I saw growing up...I have the tendancy to lean toward abortion...not that adoption isn't a better option...just that I would rather die than go through what I went through as a child.Can you understand that? Or am I a Monster for feeling this way?

Yediyd

[a-train]

Thanks yall.

I guess we could say this when we think of JFK's Inaugural address from 1961:

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your life on earth can do for you - ask what you can do with your life on earth.

Indeed, let us not assume that the hardships of our childhood were a punishment or abandonment. Rather, realize they were an opportunity for us to shine through adversity and manifest the glory of our royal heritage as children of the Almighty sent forth to perform our foreordained labor to which we looked forward to with faith and determination.

I remember a school teacher who asked our class: 'Have you thanked your mom for having you? You were all born after Rowe vs. Wade, you had no right to be born, but only your mother's decision and her excercise of her own individual rights gave you life. Go home and thank your mothers.'

Let us remember to spend more time in the service, the thanks, the praise, and the honor of motherhood and less time in the reproof of the follies of our daughters in this country who have seen so little praise of motherhood that they value it so little that they would rather have an abortion than engage in the most wonderful and honorable labor of love mankind can accomplish: the raring of children.

Is it any wonder that our young ladies who have seen such disregard, such lack of respect, such little reverence for motherhood among the men in this country, have little feeling for it?

Our courts have decided abortion is an individual right for a woman to control her own body. Do you see that they value their own life so little that they are not willing to bring their own child into their seemingly sad predicament? They want to save their child the embarrassment, the pain, the suffering, of being their young. They view themselves as failures and disappointments, unworthy, and unfit to bring a living baby into this world.

Why do they feel that way? They get no encouragement, no praise, no reverence from the men who should remove their hats and rise in the presence of these noble and great ones who were chosen to be mothers in the pre-mortal courts of the Eternal God.

No abortion ban will fix this, the real problem: the real issue that we, as a society, deny the miraculous power of God; that we see no great work in the power of procreation and esteem it, this great gift, as we do our God who gave it: a thing of naught, a thing to be trampled under the foot of men.

Let us repent quickly and remember what motherhood is and teach it to our daughters who have been chosen to do that great and noble work and in this we will do far more to abandon the scourge of abortion than any legal intercession on the part of the legislature or the courts of this land.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

I've read too many of your post to believe that, CK. :)

Although, silly...I can accept.

Hahahaha, you're too kind Yediyd.

[robbiewinters]

I am no philosopher but it occurs to me that there is a lot of lds people posting on this subject who do not accept the church position on abortion.

The church is very clear that abortion is not murder. This may have not been stated per se however it is a logical conclusion from what has been said. i.e. The church's view is that murder is always wrong. Abortion is not always wrong therefore abortion is not murder. That to me seems to be pretty uncomplicated.

The subject is very difficult and very emotive and it is difficult I think to justify abortion in my opinion other than where the life of the mother is at risk or where the child will not be born alive due to defects and to carry to term causes the mother a risk. I think even in cases of incest or rape it is difficult to justify abortion since why should the innocent child be killed for the sins of the father. I understand that for the mother the pregnancy will be difficult but who is to say that the memory of the abortion may not have as long a lasting impact on the mother throughout her life. The child could be placed for adoption if the mother could not face the constant reminder of her trauma.

I think the problem with abortion laws are that it is too easy to get an abortion. Inconvenience should never be an acceptable reason. There are thousands of childless couples who would adopt these unwanted babies. I understand that the pregnancy experience and givng birth can be difficult but unfortunately this is a result of having sex without taking precautions. There is also the morning after pill. (Perhaps I ave opened pandoras box with that one!! - where does everyone stand on that? Surely not also abortion?)

Once you have become pregnat it is too late. Live with the consequences!

Sorry if this seems heartless

[Guest Username-Removed]

You know what Wordflood, deep in my heart...I know that to be true...I guess I spoke from my pain up here. I did write a poem about this, but I won't post it, It is in my blog...The Mortal Test...I know that abortion is murder and wrong...and I know that my trials here are for a purpose...but when I think about a baby being born into the Hellish life I saw growing up...I have the tendancy to lean toward abortion...not that adoption isn't a better option...just that I would rather die than go through what I went through as a child.Can you understand that? Or am I a Monster for feeling this way?

Yediyd

Yediyd,

Its amazing when the spirit directs us. We sometimes dont know what the conclustions will be to what we say, write or think. Sometimes we just have to follow it and trust where it takes us. I dont know who this was directed to - but I for one gained much from it. I no longer have the feelings of anger I had for my dad. Admitedly, my dad wasnt physically abusive at all, he simply wasnt there, or was verbally abusive when he was there. No doubt other types of abuse would take longer to heal. But perhaps the message is one of hope for some.

One thing I have learned is life, all life, is incredibly valuable.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

You know what Wordflood, deep in my heart...I know that to be true...I guess I spoke from my pain up here. I did write a poem about this, but I won't post it, It is in my blog...The Mortal Test...I know that abortion is murder and wrong...and I know that my trials here are for a purpose...but when I think about a baby being born into the Hellish life I saw growing up...I have the tendancy to lean toward abortion...not that adoption isn't a better option...just that I would rather die than go through what I went through as a child.Can you understand that? Or am I a Monster for feeling this way?

Yediyd

Yediyd,

Its amazing when the spirit directs us. We sometimes dont know what the conclustions will be to what we say, write or think. Sometimes we just have to follow it and trust where it takes us. I dont know who this was directed to - but I for one gained much from it. I no longer have the feelings of anger I had for my dad. Admitedly, my dad wasnt physically abusive at all, he simply wasnt there, or was verbally abusive when he was there. No doubt other types of abuse would take longer to heal. But perhaps the message is one of hope for some.

One thing I have learned is life, all life, is incredibly valuable.

Yes, I agree...and I have grown from this thread as well, I have been able to put things back into perspedtive...I do believe that I will be thankfull for the experiance I have gained on this Earth...I just have a tendancy to be "short sighted" sometimes!

[JcDean78]

You know what Wordflood, deep in my heart...I know that to be true...I guess I spoke from my pain up here. I did write a poem about this, but I won't post it, It is in my blog...The Mortal Test...I know that abortion is murder and wrong...and I know that my trials here are for a purpose...but when I think about a baby being born into the Hellish life I saw growing up...I have the tendancy to lean toward abortion...not that adoption isn't a better option...just that I would rather die than go through what I went through as a child.Can you understand that? Or am I a Monster for feeling this way?

Yediyd

I would like to point out that those trials made you who you are today. Not that you would ever wish those things on anyone, but they made you into the strong person you are today.

We all have trials. Some are harder than others. I grew up with a loving mother and an abusive father who was into womanizing, drugs, and the drink. When my mother took us both away from that our lives were a lot better but still we had to fight off my father as he kept trying to mess with us for many years. There were many scary times especially as a small child but I look back now and I feel that it was all for a purpose to help me grow and to help give direction in my life on the paths not to take.

Another story I have is my best friends father was murdered back when we were just barley teenagers. His father was a great man and it was so hard on him and his family to lose such a great person. The fact that they were all sealed together was of great comfort but it did not stop their sorrow. It was a rough road for my friend because he lost the closest person to him when he felt he needed him the most. The next several years were a HUGE trial for him but it all made him a stronger person which led to where he is today.

The list could go on and on, but our trials make us who we are and strengthen us. Some are just horrible but they all serve a purpose. Looking back, I would not take those trials away from me no matter how hard they were at the time.

I am no philosopher but it occurs to me that there is a lot of lds people posting on this subject who do not accept the church position on abortion.

The church is very clear that abortion is not murder. This may have not been stated per se however it is a logical conclusion from what has been said. i.e. The church's view is that murder is always wrong. Abortion is not always wrong therefore abortion is not murder. That to me seems to be pretty uncomplicated.

The subject is very difficult and very emotive and it is difficult I think to justify abortion in my opinion other than where the life of the mother is at risk or where the child will not be born alive due to defects and to carry to term causes the mother a risk. I think even in cases of incest or rape it is difficult to justify abortion since why should the innocent child be killed for the sins of the father. I understand that for the mother the pregnancy will be difficult but who is to say that the memory of the abortion may not have as long a lasting impact on the mother throughout her life. The child could be placed for adoption if the mother could not face the constant reminder of her trauma.

I think the problem with abortion laws are that it is too easy to get an abortion. Inconvenience should never be an acceptable reason. There are thousands of childless couples who would adopt these unwanted babies. I understand that the pregnancy experience and givng birth can be difficult but unfortunately this is a result of having sex without taking precautions. There is also the morning after pill. (Perhaps I ave opened pandoras box with that one!! - where does everyone stand on that? Surely not also abortion?)

Once you have become pregnat it is too late. Live with the consequences!

Sorry if this seems heartless

If you read it, the Church states that clearly it is murder. Just like killing another person (self defense, war, etc...) there are rules that apply to the killing which can make it justified and those rules (which should be RARE) are clearly laid out by the leaders of the Church.

[LukeAir2006]

[Guest Username-Removed]

JcDean78,

I have the complete sympathy for your situation. But, if you cant supply the documents that directly say that abortion is murder, then you cant say that it is church doctrine. I for one would like you to stop doing that. You may have your opinion that it is murder, but since you have interpreted the churches doctrine by saying that abortion is murder, you are doing nothing but spreading false doctrine.

Perhaps you need to change your definition. Killing is not murder. Its bad, but its not quite there. You can feel it is, but you cant tell people what the LDS Church's stand is if you dont have the documentation to back it up.

I have already asked you once for the documentation and you have failed to produce it. No more FD please. My finger is on the ignore button, and a few others.

[JcDean78]

Someone asked for the Church's view on abortion. Here's two quotes by two prophets which are pretty clear:

Abortion is a growing evil that we speak against. Certainly the terrible sin of premeditated abortion would be hard to justify. It is almost inconceivable that an abortion would ever be committed to save face or embarrassment, to save trouble or inconvenience, or to escape responsibility. How could one submit to such an operation or be party in any way by financing or encouraging? If special rare cases could be justified, certainly they would be rare indeed. We place it high on the list of sins against which we strongly warn the people.

Abortion must be considered one of the most revolting and sinful practices in this day, when we are witnessing the frightful evidence of permissiveness leading to sexual immorality. (Spencer W. Kimball, Priesthood Bulletin, Feb. 1973, p.1)

And another:

Abortion is an ugly thing, a debasing thing, a thing which inevitably brings remorse and sorrow and regret. While we denounce it, we make allowance in such circumstances as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have serious defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

But such circumstances are rare, and there is only a negligible probability of their occurring. In these circumstances, those who face the question are asked to consult with their local ecclesiastical leaders and to pray in great earnestness, receiving a confirmation through prayer before proceeding.

You who are wives and mothers are the anchors of the family. You bear the children. What an enormous and sacred responsibility that is. I am told that between 1972 and 1990 there were 27 million abortions in the U.S. alone. What is happening to our appreciation of the sanctity of human life? Abortion is an evil, stark and real and repugnant, which is sweeping over the earth. (Gordon B. Hinckley, "Walking in the Light of the Lord," Ensign, Nov. 1998, 99).

As someone pointed out, it's between the person/couple and the Lord. Unless someone comes out and says, "I had an abortion for convenience's sake," then we cannot assume we know the Lord is displeased with them. It's pretty clear: Abortion is an evil act except in rare cases. But the Church hasn't pushed for anti-abortion legislation that I know of. If they did, I'd be fine with it, but it's really a personal choice that should involve the Lord.

Now Romney's old view was that he was pro-life, but didn't think the federal government should tell every state that abortion was illegal. He thought the states should decide (a true federalist ). Now that he's changed his mind (which was in 2004-2005 by the way...hardly a conversion on the eve of his campaign ), suddenly he's a liar? I wonder what people who worry about his flip-flopping would say to converts to the LDS Church? "Oh, you're such a flip-flopper...you used to be non-LDS and you joined just to <insert reason here>."

Anyway, Romney is pro-life personally and publicly now. I don't doubt his sincerity. I think it's great that he's come around in terms of his view of government. Roe v. Wade should be overturned, and the states should each decide what they will do in regards to the legality of abortion. This is a democratic republic. The people through their elected representatives decide what is law and what is not.

Wordflood I point to that above for now. I am sorry if you feel the need to accuse me of spreading "false" doctrine and are so upset over me calling a spade a spade that you would put me on your ignore button for speaking the truth. I think the issue with some here is that they refuse to see abortion for what it is and the Church has been clear on it.

[Guest Username-Removed]

JC,

Still nothing in there that Abortion equals murder. Sorry!

[JcDean78]

JC,

Still nothing in there that Abortion equals murder. Sorry!

I think you just see what you want to see or do not see what you do not want to see. Abortion is obviously murder and the prophets have been clear. To take away another persons life is murder yes? Abortion is the taking away of another persons life. To say it is not murder would be like saying Crack is not against the word of wisdom becuase they do not specificly mention crack.

How about if I push somebody off a bridge. Is that murder? I am going to guess you say yes it is. So please point out to me where the Church states that is murder, since I do not think they have specified that particular situation.

I am sorry if it offends you but Abortion is murder. It is the taking of another persons life and by definition murder. No amount of debate can change that.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Here is what I have ....

"One positive benefit of her situation was her newly increased interest in the advice and counsel of the prophets and her bishop. I read to her the following quotations from President Ezra Taft Benson: “ ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery,’ and also, ‘Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.’ (Ex. 20:14, 17.) Here God gives the great law of chastity. … In the category of sins, unchastity stands next to murder, nor may we forget that growing crime of abortion, which often follows unchastity. Never in this generation of ours have morals been so loose as now. Sex is all but deified, and yet at the same time, it is put before youth in its lowest, coarsest, and most debasing forms. The curtain of modesty has been torn aside. In play, book, movie, and television, in magazine story, picture, and advertisement, immorality stands out in all its vulgarity and rottenness.”

Source: Guidance for Unwed Parents, By Elder Monte J. Brough, Of the Seventy

I see exactly what they say. What do you see????

[JcDean78]

What he is saying there is that unchastity is next to murder and the gorwing crime of abortion is the result of unchastity. In no way does he say it is less than unchastity in the rankings of sin. If anything he is saying unchastity leads to abortion which is murder. Unchastity is the first step to a greater sin.

[Guest Username-Removed]

To take away another persons life is murder yes?

I dont believe it is. Murder is not forgivable. Yet, abortions, however horrible they are, are permitted in certain circumstances.

You are relying on a broad interpretation of what murder is. I am not. I have yet to see any scruipture, any church doctrine that says "Abortion is the same as Murder". They cant because there are instances where it is not. So, my friend, there is a difference. You are simply incorrect. Is it murder to defend your family by killing? No it is not. That is where we differ.

You are interpretting those quotes as meaning that abortion is the same as murder, yet they do not say that anywhere do they? But you see, Murder as defined by the church is unforgivable in this life. Yet, there are circumstances when abortion is? So therefore, how can all abortions be murder when some are forgiven and others are not?

Definition of Murder:

Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary

killing a person on purpose and illegally

American Heritage Dictionary

To kill (another human) unlawfully.

Dictionary.com

the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.

So, if the law of the church says that its not incorrect in certain circumstances, how can it break the churches law? It does not - which is why every confessed person who has committed abortion are not all excummunicated.

Im meeting a GA here in a few weeks. Would you be open to me asking him to call you and explain it to you from an official standpoint?

[CrimsonKairos]

Depends. Who's the GA? B) Just joking. I have to agree with WordFLOOD on this one.

[LukeAir2006]

[CrimsonKairos]

Fair enough, let me clarify what I meant since I left it open-ended.

I agree with WordFLOOD that abortion is not always and in every case murder. It is killing, yes, but murder involves malice and carelessness towards life.

If an abortion is to save the mother's life, etc..., then it's just killing to save life.

I wasn't commenting at all on whether or not murder can be forgiven or not.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Fair enough, let me clarify what I meant since I left it open-ended.

I agree with WordFLOOD that abortion is not always and in every case murder. It is killing, yes, but murder involves malice and carelessness towards life.

If an abortion is to save the mother's life, etc..., then it's just killing to save life.

I wasn't commenting at all on whether or not murder can be forgiven or not.

Agreed! Perhaps further study on the subject of Murder, and if/when (in this life or the life afterwards) it can be forgiven is a subject for another day!

[Guest Username-Removed]

<div class='quotemain'>

Fair enough, let me clarify what I meant since I left it open-ended.

I agree with WordFLOOD that abortion is not always and in every case murder. It is killing, yes, but murder involves malice and carelessness towards life.

If an abortion is to save the mother's life, etc..., then it's just killing to save life.

I wasn't commenting at all on whether or not murder can be forgiven or not.

Agreed! Perhaps further study on the subject of Murder, and if/when (in this life or the life afterwards) it can be forgiven is a subject for another day!

No time like the present!!!!

-------------

Ensign » 1982 » October

First Presidency Message

The Gospel of Repentance

By President Spencer W. Kimball

“Perhaps one of the reasons murder is so serious is that having taken a life, the murderer cannot restore it. Restitution in full is not possible. Similarly, it is not possible to give back robbed virtue. But as fully as he can, the truly repentant person will make restitution. The prophet Ezekiel taught, “If the wicked … give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live.” (Ezek. 33:15.)”

------------------------

Liahona » 1998 » September

“Thou Shalt Not Kill”

By Arthur R. Bassett

“We know that the Atonement is effective for all who repent except for those who commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy Ghost (see Matt. 12:31). However, in our associations with each other on earth, violation of the sixth commandment represents the most heinous crime that can be committed. The murderer, by terminating an individual’s earthly experience, sins grievously against the person he or she has killed. Those who murder steal the precious gift of mortal experience from another and set themselves in open opposition to God, the giver of life.

Further, murderers place themselves in a position where it is impossible to ask forgiveness of the one sinned against or to make restitution—at least in this life. So grievous is murder that the Prophet Joseph Smith said murderers “cannot be forgiven, until they have paid the last farthing.” 1 “

Further, many of the major moral issues of our day are related to the sixth commandment in one way or another when we take into account the Lord’s addition to it in modern revelation: “Thou shalt not … kill, nor do anything like unto it” (D&C 59:6; emphasis added). Today’s news headlines and broadcasts are full of issues “like unto it”: suicide, abortion, 2 mercy killing, toxic pollution, knowing transmittal of AIDS, and more. “

“When we fall into the error of judging others, we may tend to condemn the violator of the sixth commandment as a lost soul. However, only God knows the minds and hearts of his children. Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, in writing about suicide, raised issues that seem to apply also to other transgressions of the sixth commandment:

“I feel that judgment for sin is not always as cut-and-dried as some of us seem to think. The Lord said, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ Does that mean that every person who kills will be condemned, no matter the circumstances? Civil law recognizes that there are gradations in this matter. … I feel that the Lord recognizes differences in intent and circumstances.”

Elder Ballard also suggests that mental, emotional, or physical factors may play roles in suicide that we do not understand. Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles gave us the following related insight: “Persons subject to great stresses may lose control of themselves and become mentally clouded to the point that they are no longer accountable for their acts. Such are not to be condemned for taking their own lives. It should also be remembered that judgment is the Lord’s.” 6 “

Some similar considerations may apply in cases of abortion and physical abuse. Our responsibilities are to be as compassionate as possible in all cases, to leave judgment to the Lord, and to reach out in love every way we can. Sometimes our response may be restricted to prayers in behalf of those who grieve; at times these prayers are the only way we can take upon ourselves the burden of others, “to mourn with those that mourn … and comfort those that stand in need of comfort” (Mosiah 18:9). But wherever possible, we need to work to restore a greater sense of life and its purposes to those who, in their sorrow, have retreated from living.”

-------------------

[Gabelma]

Abortion is treated differently to murder in terms of repentence by church authorities - a person who has had an abortion has different requirements for baptism etc We don't know what happens to the spirits of children who die before they are born so we are not in the position to make the decision as to how close to murder it is. We need to rely on the GA I guess to point us in the right direction

Charley

[JcDean78]

Fair enough, let me clarify what I meant since I left it open-ended.

I agree with WordFLOOD that abortion is not always and in every case murder. It is killing, yes, but murder involves malice and carelessness towards life.

If an abortion is to save the mother's life, etc..., then it's just killing to save life.

I wasn't commenting at all on whether or not murder can be forgiven or not.

I am not saying otherwise than that. As stated previously there are exceptions to both killing adults and children. If I kill a person in the defense of my home, then that is a justified killing. If my wife kills our child because she will die from giving birth then that is another justified killing.

However if I kill somebody because they are up to get a promotion before I am then that is killing to attempt to make my life easier just the same if I kill my child because I do not want one or do not feel I am up to being a parent.

It is not I who are trying to pervert what they have said. Infantcide is only justifiable in certain situations just like killing adults and that is STRAIGHT from the prophets. Murder is murder no matter what age the victim is. Your definitions support the fact that abortion is murder. In certain situations killing is justified be it a child or an adult, but only in THOSE RARE situations. Any other killing is in fact MURDER and that includes all other Abortions.

[Guest Username-Removed]

<div class='quotemain'>

Fair enough, let me clarify what I meant since I left it open-ended.

I agree with WordFLOOD that abortion is not always and in every case murder. It is killing, yes, but murder involves malice and carelessness towards life.

If an abortion is to save the mother's life, etc..., then it's just killing to save life.

I wasn't commenting at all on whether or not murder can be forgiven or not.

I am not saying otherwise than that. As stated previously there are exceptions to both killing adults and children. If I kill a person in the defense of my home, then that is a justified killing. If my wife kills our child because she will die from giving birth then that is another justified killing.

However if I kill somebody because they are up to get a promotion before I am then that is killing to attempt to make my life easier just the same if I kill my child because I do not want one or do not feel I am up to being a parent.

It is not I who are trying to pervert what they have said. Infantcide is only justifiable in certain situations just like killing adults and that is STRAIGHT from the prophets. Murder is murder no matter what age the victim is. Your definitions support the fact that abortion is murder. In certain situations killing is justified be it a child or an adult, but only in THOSE RARE situations. Any other killing is in fact MURDER and that includes all other Abortions.

Very good. Im glad that you agree now that all abortions are NOT murder. Killing, yes, but not ALL murder. No doubt, there are some that are. Im so very glad that you have corrected yourself on this.

JC, my advice to you is this .... "Our responsibilities are to be as compassionate as possible in all cases, to leave judgment to the Lord, and to reach out in love every way we can. Sometimes our response may be restricted to prayers in behalf of those who grieve; at times these prayers are the only way we can take upon ourselves the burden of others, “to mourn with those that mourn … and comfort those that stand in need of comfort” (Mosiah 18:9). But wherever possible, we need to work to restore a greater sense of life and its purposes to those who, in their sorrow, have retreated from living.”

Liahona » 1998 » September

“Thou Shalt Not Kill”

By Arthur R. Bassett