Lds And Pro-choice

[Saab900man]

Ok, I know this is a topic that brings out the "best" in people but I have to ask. With Mitt Romney running for President I have thought about this question. He was once Pro choice ...I understand his reasoning for it ....sort of. I know his mother had a sister (or someone related) die from an illegal abortion procedure. But to me it seems like a contradiction to be LDS and Pro- choice. Abortion denies a spirit a body it just seems like it would be hard to be both. I know that in the case of rape or if the mothers life is in danger it is different. Thoughts?

[JcDean78]

Abortion is murder. Do we have a right to murder?

[Saab900man]

Abortion is murder. Do we have a right to murder?

This is what I mean I thought most LDS members believed this.

[a-train]

What I want to know is why is it illegal for me to get LSD from a medical professional so I can kick it straight psychadelic because of this nasty rumor that it might kill some brain cells, but the ladies can get whole fetuses scraped out of their uteruses and thrown in the garbage all they want? This is sexist and I demand equal rights!

-The Masculinist

(Listening to Jimmy Hendrix in the background)

[orrinjelo]

I just took a little political quiz and it says I'm more liberal.

Anywho, I am pro-choice on the subject of abortion. I do not agree with it, and if my girlfriend or wife needed an abortion, I'd consider the situation, but I would generally not support an abortion. However, I would allow them to make that choice for themselves. Yes, it might be murder, but it's their choice. There are still a lot of women out there that are faced with the situation and are given the choice and had to ponder what their choice should be.

As for you, a-train....

*puts on Jimmy Hendrix as well*

[pam]

Ok, I know this is a topic that brings out the "best" in people but I have to ask. With Mitt Romney running for President I have thought about this question. He was once Pro choice ...I understand his reasoning for it ....sort of. I know his mother had a sister (or someone related) die from an illegal abortion procedure. But to me it seems like a contradiction to be LDS and Pro- choice. Abortion denies a spirit a body it just seems like it would be hard to be both. I know that in the case of rape or if the mothers life is in danger it is different. Thoughts?

My opinion that spirit already has a body when conceived howbeit small and microscopic. To me that is murder. Now in the case of rape, incest mothers life in danger I understand and accept those reasons. My thing is the easiness in which to obtain abortions and how so many treat abortions as a form of birth control.

[Guest Username-Removed]

I have my own view on this. While I dont think its murder (probably pretty darn close to it), because I dont believe the spirit is CONSTANTLY in the fetus while the fetus is in the body of the mother. However, once the baby is born, the spirit must stay in the body of the baby. I believe the spirit moves from the spirit world to the fetus while in the body of the mother. That being said, I certainly respect other peoples beliefs. Also, I dont think abortion is correct except in those certain circumstances that is allowed under the church - Rape, Incest or the mother's life is in danger.

[the_jason]

I wholeheartedly oppose abortion. It's a despicable act in my mind. However, being LDS does not require a person to be pro-life. Murder is a sin, but many would say a fetus in its early stages is not a living being, and the killing of said fetus would not be considered murder. To my knowledge, the church has not made an official stand on how far along a fetus must be for it to be considered murder.

Again, these are not my thoughts, but I'm trying to play devil's advocate for a second. A member of the church could have the opinion that a fetus is not a living being until it has reached a certain progression, therefore they may not think it is abortion. That does not mean they are an unrighteous member.

[pam]

There is an article at lds.org by Russell M. Nelson called Reverence for Life that I think people should read. It pretty much gives church standards on the subject and explains things quite well.

[a-train]

I don't give any substance to the argument that if abortion were illegal, dangerous underground procedures would threaten the lives of the daughters of this country. We don't get these kids good clean exstacy? How about some professionally manufactured cocaine? I DON'T WANT MY DAUGHTER TO SMOKE WEED THAT COULD HAVE BEEN TREATED WITH HARMFUL PESTICIDES!!!!

We don't use this logic to legalize drugs (well, OK, some do). Why does it suddenly gain acceptance on this issue? Of course nasty underground 'doctors' would do damage (still probably do), but is that why we want it legal?

Are we going to legalize murder so long as it is done by capable hit men? Don't we want to put a stop to the troublesome, violent, and underground manner in which murder is committed? Why don't we legalize it? I could go in and fill out paperwork and have a professional hit-man so reckognized by the state to wack my my kid, because I can't afford him anymore. This would be much better than the nasty .45 to the back of the head in the woods.

-a-train

[ninjahobbit8]

There is an article at lds.org by Russell M. Nelson called Reverence for Life that I think people should read. It pretty much gives church standards on the subject and explains things quite well.

yeah, i used some of that talk for my political philosophy paper. i would have gotten an A if i didn't turn it in late. better than an F though

but it is a good talk ! Clear on abortion/life and whatnot.

[FrankJL]

I personally think abortion and drug use is immoral.

But as a libertarian, I think both should be legal. The government needs to quit telling people what they can do with their own bodies, we've become too much of a nanny state.

[Guest Yediyd]

ok, I'm probably going to take a lot of heat here, but here is my view...

I was raised in an abusive home...I have so many step,half,whole,and foster siblings that I have not even met all of them! My life was chaos from day one...Both parents were alcoholics...My mother was pregnet every year till she had her last child when I was 6. We are all 10months to 1yr. apart...What is my point? If I had been given the choice...I would have rather been sent back to Heaven, than to be born into the Hell I saw growing up.

Some people shouldn't breed!

I believe that abortion is murder...but child abuse and neglect is worse! I will live with the scars of my childhood for the rest of my life...And don't even get me started on the shape my siblings are in!

[a-train]

Hey Yediyd,

Now you have to ask yourself this question:

Knowing the family into which you were going to be born, and saying now that you would have preferred to stay in your pre-mortal state rather then be born in this family, why did you choose to do so anyway?

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

Romney wasn't pro-choice. He was pro-life personally, but believed that government shouldn't be able to tell women what to do in that regard. That's a pretty conservative view, actually...smaller, limited federal government and let the states decide.

Now he realizes that abortion has opened the floodgates to embryo farming and other practices that devalue human life and create life for the sake of destroying it and taking a few cells in the process.

Now here's an interesting question: We know that people with mental handicaps or other disabilities that make them unaccountable are guaranteed a place in the celestial kingdom. I had younger sister we adopted from Thailand who was such a soul (she's since died). Well here's the question:

If you could know beyond a doubt through some verifiable means that the child in your womb was going to have a handicap that would render them unaccountable, would it be wrong to abort the fetus since they're going to the CK anyway?

(I wouldn't, but it's an interesting question...)

[Guest Yediyd]

Hey Yediyd,

Now you have to ask yourself this question:

Knowing the family into which you were going to be born, and saying now that you would have preferred to stay in your pre-mortal state rather then be born in this family, why did you choose to do so anyway?

-a-train

Good question! I wrote a poem about that...It's called: The Mortal Test ,and can be found in my blog.

[FrankJL]

Romney wasn't pro-choice. He was pro-life personally, but believed that government shouldn't be able to tell women what to do in that regard. That's a pretty conservative view, actually...smaller, limited federal government and let the states decide.

Now he realizes that abortion has opened the floodgates to embryo farming and other practices that devalue human life and create life for the sake of destroying it and taking a few cells in the process.

Romney is the Republican John Kerry, he seems to just flip flop to whatever position is most favorable to the race he is running in. This is already hurting him a lot. It it wasn't for this mess, he would probably be ahead of Giuliani right now. He's looked amazingly solid in the debates so far, most reviews I've seen of the most recent CNN debate, show Romney performed the best.

[JcDean78]

I personally think abortion and drug use is immoral.

But as a libertarian, I think both should be legal. The government needs to quit telling people what they can do with their own bodies, we've become too much of a nanny state.

Getting a Tattoo, piercing, or cutting off your own hand is doing what YOU want with your body. Killing another person is not about your body. Does that mean I could stand in front of you and shot myself through the gut and the bullet hits you too and kills you? During sex certain parts of another person are inside a woman, should she be able to do anything she pleases since it is HER body? Even cut it off?

I am not trying to be crude but my point is that you should not be able to do things to your body that cause harm to other peoples bodies. Want to smoke in your own home or jump off a bridge? GO right ahead. But when you want to murder or harm others, the "it is my body" argument goes right out the window. If I live in a house with another person but I own the house and decide one night I am just going to light it on fire. If that person dies, can I say "keep your laws off my house?" or "My house, my way?"

Abortion IS murder. No amount of debate or discussion can EVER change that no matter how much some people would like to try.

[FrankJL]

Does that mean I could stand in front of you and shot myself through the gut and the bullet hits you too and kills you? During sex certain parts of another person are inside a woman, should she be able to do anything she pleases since it is HER body? Even cut it off?

I think perhaps you should ask Lorena Bobbitt that question.

Seriously though, I'm speechless as to how to even respond to this....wow....whoa....ahh...duh...

Though i suppose, it was good laugh to start off my morning, that has to be one of the most absurd things I've seen posted on this board, since I've joined.

If I live in a house with another person but I own the house and decide one night I am just going to light it on fire. If that person dies, can I say "keep your laws off my house?" or "My house, my way?"

umm...no...again another nonsensical argument. If someone else dies as a result of your actions, then your not just harming yourself, regardless of who owns a piece of property. That much should be pretty self explanatory.

Killing another person is not about your body.

I guess we can just leave this as a difference of opinion. When something is inside a person's body (by inside I mean literally inside, not inside you like your creepy sexual reference above), it is their body, not yours, not Pat Roberts, nor Rick Santorum's. So the choice should be theirs.

What really gets me about the whole abortion debate is, its a womans issue, and so many men want to try and tell a woman how she should deal with her pregnancy. When a man will never know what that is like, or what pains, in some circumstances, that your going to try to force a woman through because of a belief that you feel compelled to project on to others.

[sixpacktr]

Abortion is murder. Do we have a right to murder?

JC,

Abortion isn't murder. Those that have submitted to an abortion for convenience, or even performed one, can be forgiven (not easy, granted, but it can be done). Those that murder will not have forgiveness in this world, but will have to pay a price later on.

That being said, abortion is wrong except in the case of serious medical issues with the mother, rape/incest, or if the child will be severely handicapped, and then the handbook of instructions it should be done after fasting and much prayer to determine if it is acceptable to the Lord. If the Lord permits it, then there is no need to worry about it.

I used to think that the rape/incest one was a no brainer, because life started thru an act of violence. Then I saw a woman that talks to young people about chastity before marriage that was conceived thru rape. I rethought my position then. Who am I to determine that she should have died? Look at what she has done with her life...

The world has gotten into the "abortion as birth control" mode, which is why there is so little regard for life these days. I would wager that 95% or greater of the abortions done in this country (and the world) are done for convenience instead of because of the above reasons.

I find it hard to believe that someone can be LDS and pro-abortion. It flies in the face of all we hold dear. Killing an embryo or, more horrendously, a fetus, is a mark of brutality and extreme selfishness, IMHO.

[FrankJL]

I find it hard to believe that someone can be LDS and pro-abortion.

How so?

Just because you hold one opinion that means you should force your views on others who don't share your views?

[sixpacktr]

I find it hard to believe that someone can be LDS and pro-abortion.

How so?

Just because you hold one opinion that means you should force your views on others who don't share your views?

FrankJL,

No, because our church teaches, very plainly, that it is wrong. It isn't a matter of personal opinion. I'm not forcing my views on anyone. But wrong is wrong. Period. To me it is like saying that someone wants to be a faithful member of the church but they just can't buy that Joseph Smith stuff. Other than that, it is all good!

Can't do it. Sorry.

[Soulsearcher]

<div class='quotemain'>

I find it hard to believe that someone can be LDS and pro-abortion.

How so?

Just because you hold one opinion that means you should force your views on others who don't share your views?

FrankJL,

No, because our church teaches, very plainly, that it is wrong. It isn't a matter of personal opinion. I'm not forcing my views on anyone. But wrong is wrong. Period. To me it is like saying that someone wants to be a faithful member of the church but they just can't buy that Joseph Smith stuff. Other than that, it is all good!

Can't do it. Sorry.

The church doesn't plainly teach it's wrong though. It teaches that in some cases it's acceptable, which moves it from plainly wrong to a matter between the person and the lord, which is where i think it should always stay. Unless you go through it or truly know the pain of the choice, i think we need to keep our mouths shut and let the lord lead.

And for the record, like the church, i'm pro-choice for limited abortions, but also pro-life cause i feel the loss of each new life that was denied the chance to live live all the way through. It's funny that we call it murder, when, in some cases, most members here would more than willingly take another life to protect them or the ones they love from harm. We tend to look at the act and not the reasoning, but when it's us, we'll makes an excuse like "self defense" or " i was protecting.." Leave the choice legal, leave it between them and the lord. Trust in the free agency the lord gave us, i still think it was the greatest gift we have.

[Guest Username-Removed]

I find it hard to believe that someone can be LDS and pro-abortion.

How so?

Just because you hold one opinion that means you should force your views on others who don't share your views?

People can have different views. The real question is when is something Hypocrisy, and when is it not? The only difference is whats in a person's heart. And I only know one person that can judge whats in a person's heart.

My belief is that nobody can know everything from the beginning. People can say what they believe, but the fact is, the church has said that abortion is wrong, except in certain circumstances. The trick is knowing when those "certain circumstaces" apply and when they do not.

We all can sit here and judge someone for having an abortion, but the fact is, we dont have all the facts. The same is with divorce. I cant begin to tell you all the judgements that have come on me from other members who have such a cold view on divorce. We do have the guidelines of gospel, but in the end, the law of the land says its her choice - PERIOD. It may not be the correct choice, it may be wrong, but its still her choice. Further, what if Heavanly Father told her it was the correct thing? Now what do you do?

I hope this discussion doesnt turn into judging somone. Because its never as clear cut as someone might think.

[JcDean78]

Does that mean I could stand in front of you and shot myself through the gut and the bullet hits you too and kills you? During sex certain parts of another person are inside a woman, should she be able to do anything she pleases since it is HER body? Even cut it off?

I think perhaps you should ask Lorena Bobbitt that question.

Seriously though, I'm speechless as to how to even respond to this....wow....whoa....ahh...duh...

Though i suppose, it was good laugh to start off my morning, that has to be one of the most absurd things I've seen posted on this board, since I've joined.

If I live in a house with another person but I own the house and decide one night I am just going to light it on fire. If that person dies, can I say "keep your laws off my house?" or "My house, my way?"

umm...no...again another nonsensical argument. If someone else dies as a result of your actions, then your not just harming yourself, regardless of who owns a piece of property. That much should be pretty self explanatory.

Killing another person is not about your body.

I guess we can just leave this as a difference of opinion. When something is inside a person's body (by inside I mean literally inside, not inside you like your creepy sexual reference above), it is their body, not yours, not Pat Roberts, nor Rick Santorum's. So the choice should be theirs.

What really gets me about the whole abortion debate is, its a womans issue, and so many men want to try and tell a woman how she should deal with her pregnancy. When a man will never know what that is like, or what pains, in some circumstances, that your going to try to force a woman through because of a belief that you feel compelled to project on to others.

There is no debate, it is murder. People are just trying to justify it any way they can. You keep saying it is about a woman and her body when clearly it is not. It is about a woman wanting to cause harm or murder another person! People say, well the baby can not make it on its own without the mom. Well can a newborn? If that mom dumps the baby in the trash then is that murder? How about a disabled person who can not fend for themselves. Would that be murder?

I want to drink and I want to drive. Its my body and my car, so I can do as I please right? Even if there is a chance I can hurt others?

Well with Abortion there is a 100% chance you will not only harm but MURDER another human being. It is not about a womans body, it is about a CHILDS body. The womans right to "choose" ends after she chose to have sex. When she made THAT choice with her body, then the life that follows is NOT her choice.

As I said before Abortion IS murder and no amount of debate or discussion can change the truth regardless of how inconvenient it might be to some people.