Brigham Young..a Murderer? Huh?

[Jason]

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So you don't believe it is false?

Kind of a silly question don't you think?

Well you said that you never said you said it was false. So it's on the fence. You could be like some apostates who are just annoyed, but never denied the gospel.

So what is it.

Humor me why dont ya.

Is truth present? Yes. But as the LDS church expresses it? No. Ambiguous answer? Absolutely!

[vinny15]

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So you don't believe it is false?

Kind of a silly question don't you think?

Well you said that you never said you said it was false. So it's on the fence. You could be like some apostates who are just annoyed, but never denied the gospel.

So what is it.

Humor me why dont ya.

Is truth present? Yes. But as the LDS church expresses it? No. Ambiguous answer? Absolutely!

Well thats nice. It makes no sense, but thats nice.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>Ok, now I'm REALLY displaying my ignorance...but, what's a "Josephite"?

Yedihd, It's not ignorance. It's just old history; most members don't know about it unless their into the Church's history. So don't feel ignorant.

The Josephites were members who followed Joseph Smith's son, Joseph Smith III. Emma stayed in Nauvoo and raised her children there. This is the quick version, but many believed Joseph III was the rightful heir to the Church's presidency. In addition, these people did not believe polygamy was a commandment of God. So when Joseph III was old enough, it took some convincing, but they finally got him to agree to become president of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Today this version of the church is called the Church of Christ. (Blessed, is that right?)

At the time they were called the Josephites; the Salt Lake City Mormons were called the Brighamites. Overall there were about 100 scfhisms of Mormonism. There are sitll quite a few today.

Blessed, please correct my story where I've got it wrong. I don't know it as well as I'm sure you do.

Thanks,

Emma

Thank you, Emma...actually, Jason was kind enough to pm me and he explained it relitively the same way you did. Thanks to both of you. :)

[Jason]

Thank you, Emma...actually, Jason was kind enough to pm me and he explained it relitively the same way you did. Thanks to both of you. :)

I am the god of Mormon history and theology.

Course, you might not like how I interpret the data, but that's another issue entirely. B)

[Guest Yediyd]

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Thank you, Emma...actually, Jason was kind enough to pm me and he explained it relitively the same way you did. Thanks to both of you. :)

I am the god of Mormon history and theology.

Course, you might not like how I interpret the data, but that's another issue entirely. B)

:)

[vinny15]

lol. I never new that there were brighamites. I new that there were 2 seperate groups and that there were josephites, but never heard of brighamites. lol

I like the -ite words lol. Makes it sound cooler.

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

lol. I never new that there were brighamites. I new that there were 2 seperate groups and that there were josephites, but never heard of brighamites. lol

I like the -ite words lol. Makes it sound cooler.

There are actually almost 100 different schisms of Joseph's church.

Here are two more "ites."

Bickertonites

Strangites

Here's a link to the Strangites current site that I'd never seen before. It's really fascinating. Strangites Current

I'm not sure which schism this church is: The Church of Jesus Christ

Emma

[Blessed]

While my church still owns the name Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints legally, we officially changed the name to Community of Christ. But the rest of it, you got right, Emma!!!

[Jason]

I didn't know that John Hajicek was a Strangite! He runs the restoration.org site. I always thought he was RLDS.

Did he convert?

[a-train]

Really? Does that explain why the Israelites killed every man, woman and child in the land when they moved to Canaan?

No, it does not.

Did they kill every man, woman and child in the land when they moved to Canaan?

Now the Midianites and Moabites were among those who sought the destruction of early Israel. Numbers 22 confirms that it was territorial concerns that motivated the Midianites to attack Israel. Now if Balak had not sought the destruction of Israel, would he have been entangled in war?

What was Moses command to the armies of Israel concerning the attacking Midianites? 'Go kill every man, woman and child in the land'? Did they go out in search of all Midianites in the territory and hunt them down to their extinction? Did Israel attack them because they weren't living the Laws of God?

Didn't Moses say: 'But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves'? And didn't they spare those Midianites who stayed themselves and rose not against Israel? Why did the Midianites continue to exist for decades afterward if they had been utterly destroyed by Israel?

What about Rahab, the harlot who was spared by Joshua (Josh 2:1, Heb 11:31, James 2:25) during Israel's entry into Canaan? What about the Canaanites who dwelled among Ephraim (Josh 16:10)? Why did Joshua warn against marrying and worshipping the gods of gentiles that remained 'among' Israel? (Josh 23)

Old Utah and Old Israel were the same. The LORD's prophets only sought to preserve the people and their land from attacking enemies who sought their annihilation. They did NOT seek to embark on a crusade killing all unbelievers in their path. Once again, an appeal to Presdient Young's assertion of similitude of Utah to Israel to demonstrate the intentions and practices among LDS Leadership does not at all implicate them, but if indeed they did as Moses and Joshua, they are therefore blameless.

-a-train

[Jason]

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Really? Does that explain why the Israelites killed every man, woman and child in the land when they moved to Canaan?

No, it does not.

Did they kill every man, woman and child in the land when they moved to Canaan?

Now the Midianites and Moabites were among those who sought the destruction of early Israel. Numbers 22 confirms that it was territorial concerns that motivated the Midianites to attack Israel. Now if Balak had not sought the destruction of Israel, would he have been entangled in war?

What was Moses command to the armies of Israel concerning the attacking Midianites? 'Go kill every man, woman and child in the land'? Did they go out in search of all Midianites in the territory and hunt them down to their extinction? Did Israel attack them because they weren't living the Laws of God?

Didn't Moses say: 'But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves'? And didn't they spare those Midianites who stayed themselves and rose not against Israel? Why did the Midianites continue to exist for decades afterward if they had been utterly destroyed by Israel?

What about Rahab, the harlot who was spared by Joshua (Josh 2:1, Heb 11:31, James 2:25) during Israel's entry into Canaan? What about the Canaanites who dwelled among Ephraim (Josh 16:10)? Why did Joshua warn against marrying and worshipping the gods of gentiles that remained 'among' Israel? (Josh 23)

Old Utah and Old Israel were the same. The LORD's prophets only sought to preserve the people and their land from attacking enemies who sought their annihilation. They did NOT seek to embark on a crusade killing all unbelievers in their path. Once again, an appeal to Presdient Young's assertion of similitude of Utah to Israel to demonstrate the intentions and practices among LDS Leadership does not at all implicate them, but if indeed they did as Moses and Joshua, they are therefore blameless.

-a-train

They were told to wipe out all of Canaan. Midianites are not Canaanites.

Don't confuse the two.

And you're overlooking the obvious here: GOD doesn't ask anyone to kill another. EVER. Anyone who says He does is a LIAR and does not know GOD.

[a-train]

Perhaps you didn't read all of my post. I specifically mentioned the Canaanites that dwelled among Israel. An appeal to scripture to assert they 'wipe[d] out all of Canaan' would be fruitless. The scriptures state plainly that did NOT happen.

-a-train

[Jason]

Perhaps you didn't read all of my post. I specifically mentioned the Canaanites that dwelled among Israel. An appeal to scripture to assert they 'wipe[d] out all of Canaan' would be fruitless. The scriptures state plainly that did NOT happen.

-a-train

But they were told too. You've missed the point.

[Guest Yediyd]

Perhaps you didn't read all of my post. I specifically mentioned the Canaanites that dwelled among Israel. An appeal to scripture to assert they 'wipe[d] out all of Canaan' would be fruitless. The scriptures state plainly that did NOT happen.

-a-train

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm SURE you will!) but wasn't the Samaritains a race of half breeds that were hated by the Jews because they were Jews who had intermarried with the people of the land? Samariea is smack dab in the middle of the promised land, but the Jews would walk all the way around and into the mountians rather than walk through Samaria. If they had killed all the inhabitants of the land...then why the hated Samaritans? RIGHT smack dab in the middle of the promised land? Hmmmm?

[a-train]

Perhaps you can help me locate the commandment from the LORD to the ancient Israelites to utterly destroy all the unbelievers in and around Canaan.

-a-train

[Jason]

Perhaps you can help me locate the commandment from the LORD to the ancient Israelites to utterly destroy all the unbelievers in and around Canaan.

-a-train

Not around Canaan that I know of, but as I've said, plenty of scriptures discuss destroying unbelievers, which easily applies to any non-Israelite.

This command to destroy numerous kingdoms:

And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.

So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.

And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.

All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.

And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities, we took for a prey to ourselves. (Deut. 3:2-7)

That's not my GOD talking there. Maybe it's your "god" but it's not mine.

Mine is a GOD of love and peace.

[a-train]

Jason,

You are right, that wasn't God speaking. That was Moses speaking. In the first verse he said:

'Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei.'

Once again, the people of Israel were not herein commanded to kill anyone for a lack of faith, but they were to defend themselves against brutal attackers led by a murderous dictator. These combatants of Og were not only an army, but included 'all his people'.

This instance serves well to demonstrate that Moses and the Children of Israel were sanctioned by God to defend themselves against the armies of attacking nations who sought their destruction, but it provides no indication that God commanded in any case that believers were to hunt and destroy the non-believers because they would not follow God.

Now look at what a stretch the antis must go to in efforts to demonstrate some connection between the teachings of President Young and the brutal murder of a peaceful group of travellers in Utah. It is only upon the foundation of great interpolation that one can erect a bridge over the gap between the two.

-a-train

[Jason]

Did you miss verse two that I quoted: "And the Lord said...."

[a-train]

No.

-a-train

[Guest Yediyd]

Perhaps you can help me locate the commandment from the LORD to the ancient Israelites to utterly destroy all the unbelievers in and around Canaan.

-a-train

check out Exodus 23:30...God tells them to drive the people out little by little...not all at once.

[a-train]

Yediyd,

That is actually a great example of how the LORD intended to fight the battles of the Children of Israel for them.

'For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.' (Exodus 23:23)

'I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.' (Exodus 23:27)

'I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.' (Exodus 23:28)

-a-train

[Jason]

And nobody here actually thinks it's wrong for "god" to command genocide?

[CrimsonKairos]

Well He can cause it and that's okay (refer to the Flood, genocide on steroids). Why is commanding it wrong if it's His will?

[Jason]

Well He can cause it and that's okay (refer to the Flood, genocide on steroids). Why is commanding it wrong if it's His will?

Because there's no objective way to determine if a word being uttered by another human being is literally the "word of God".

Wouldn't you be afraid if some group claiming to speak for God gained power over the state, and began wholesale slaughter of a group of people for no other reason than some guy claims he's God's mouthpiece or Vicar on the earth?

[CrimsonKairos]

Yeah, I would be worried. Guess it's a good thing its not likely to happen to me.