Brigham Young..a Murderer? Huh?

[Blessed]

Ok, ok, ok, Emma! :-) I dug it out of my hope chest. The year was 1868 and here are his words:

"So when March came, I went up to Salt Lake City to be at the April conference and, also, to receive my second anointing and endowment. I understood this second endowment would give me more power and I could fight the Devil with more force and power.

So the time came, and I entered the endowment room for my second anointing. Brigham authorized Erastus Snow to officiate in this ordinance of second anointing, and told him to call upon those to assist who were getting their anointings and endowments. This day's labor was a day long to be remembered by me, and the thought I was worthy to be officiate in so great an endowment as the second considered, I thought was double the honor conferred upon me."

Now skipping...

This summer I concluded to take Erastus Snow's advice and make an effort to add my family another wife. I was acquainted with a girl in Mountain Meadows and I thought if my wife could possible live in peace with any woman on earth, and divide time with her, she could live with this one. But I wanted her satisfied by all means.... (snip) I could see at onece it would be a great trial for my wife, and to tell you the truth, it was also a trial for me; but we determined for exaltation; but my heart failed with I got ready for the trip.

(snip) I went over to the Meadows and we mutually agreed to dissolve the contract between us. (snip)

Erastus Snow heard of my decision not to remain with the kingdom and to seek out Jospehites. At this, he was not amused and gave me a rebuke I shall not forget. I was given three hours to leave and to not return to the kingdom. When coming back to my homestead I had saw that it had been torched, and there was little to gather from it.

============================================

That is all my poor fingers can type write now... Hope you enhoyed it.

[Guest Yediyd]

Ok, ok, ok, Emma! :-) I dug it out of my hope chest. The year was 1868 and here are his words:

"So when March came, I went up to Salt Lake City to be at the April conference and, also, to receive my second anointing and endowment. I understood this second endowment would give me more power and I could fight the Devil with more force and power.

So the time came, and I entered the endowment room for my second anointing. Brigham authorized Erastus Snow to officiate in this ordinance of second anointing, and told him to call upon those to assist who were getting their anointings and endowments. This day's labor was a day long to be remembered by me, and the thought I was worthy to be officiate in so great an endowment as the second considered, I thought was double the honor conferred upon me."

Now skipping...

This summer I concluded to take Erastus Snow's advice and make an effort to add my family another wife. I was acquainted with a girl in Mountain Meadows and I thought if my wife could possible live in peace with any woman on earth, and divide time with her, she could live with this one. But I wanted her satisfied by all means.... (snip) I could see at onece it would be a great trial for my wife, and to tell you the truth, it was also a trial for me; but we determined for exaltation; but my heart failed with I got ready for the trip.

(snip) I went over to the Meadows and we mutually agreed to dissolve the contract between us. (snip)

Erastus Snow heard of my decision not to remain with the kingdom and to seek out Jospehites. At this, he was not amused and gave me a rebuke I shall not forget. I was given three hours to leave and to not return to the kingdom. When coming back to my homestead I had saw that it had been torched, and there was little to gather from it.

============================================

That is all my poor fingers can type write now... Hope you enhoyed it.

Interesting...thank you for that...and again....still only one side of the story.

btw...what is a second endowment?

[Jason]

btw...what is a second endowment?

It's called the second anointing. In the first anointing, you are anointed to become a king, priest, etc, etc,. But in the second anointing, you are made a king, etc.

They don't do it much anymore. Too many apostates after the 2nd, and that's just mind boggling apparently.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

btw...what is a second endowment?

It's called the second anointing. In the first anointing, you are anointed to become a king, priest, etc, etc,. But in the second anointing, you are made a king, etc.

They don't do it much anymore. Too many apostates after the 2nd, and that's just mind boggling apparently.

never heard of such a thing...course, I'm still new to LDS.

[Jason]

I think people are missing the point of the MMM. It was to save their souls, not just to "kill" them.

Nobody here knows about blood atonement?

never heard of such a thing...course, I'm still new to LDS.

Oh, well I was a Mormon for 28 years, and I spent entirely too much time studying this kind of stuff.

[Guest Yediyd]

I think people are missing the point of the MMM. It was to save their souls, not just to "kill" them.

Nobody here knows about blood atonement?

<div class='quotemain'>

never heard of such a thing...course, I'm still new to LDS.

Oh, well I was a Mormon for 28 years, and I spent entirely too much time studying this kind of stuff.

MMM?

Sorry...I'm slow...I got it,The meadows massacre.

[Jason]

Blood Atonement was preached by the early Utah Church as a means to help "apostates" and other non-elect to attain Salvation/Exaltation.

It consisted of asking the President of the LDS Church to form a committee, having them determine if it was the best course, and then executing the offender by having their throat slit (or shot or some other means, but they must spill blood for it to work.)

Most Christians will refute this notion, saying that there is no sin that Christ's atonement cannot blot out.

[Guest Yediyd]

Blood Atonement was preached by the early Utah Church as a means to help "apostates" and other non-elect to attain Salvation/Exaltation.

It consisted of asking the President of the LDS Church to form a committee, having them determine if it was the best course, and then executing the offender by having their throat slit (or shot or some other means, but they must spill blood for it to work.)

Most Christians will refute this notion, saying that there is no sin that Christ's atonement cannot blot out.

huh?

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

Blood Atonement was preached by the early Utah Church as a means to help "apostates" and other non-elect to attain Salvation/Exaltation.

It consisted of asking the President of the LDS Church to form a committee, having them determine if it was the best course, and then executing the offender by having their throat slit (or shot or some other means, but they must spill blood for it to work.)

Most Christians will refute this notion, saying that there is no sin that Christ's atonement cannot blot out.

huh?

Wow, you are a noob.

Brigham Young and his counselors taught a doctrine called Blood Atonement once upon a time. Do some web research on it, or go to journalofdiscourses.org and look it up in vol 4.

[Guest Yediyd]

Wow, you are a noob.

Brigham Young and his counselors taught a doctrine called Blood Atonement once upon a time. Do some web research on it, or go to journalofdiscourses.org and look it up in vol 4

yes I am new to this site and new to LDS but I am learning! Thank you for the advice! I am also new to computers!

[vinny15]

http://www.shields-research.org/General/blood_atonement.htm

This is a letter from the first presidency on blood atonement.

Blood atonement is the atonement of Christ *period*. It has been skewed by anti -mormons saying that we murdured young apostates because it brought salvation to them.

Wrong. There is zero evidences of any one being murdured because of blood atonement.

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai048.html

We have to remeber that the discourses were not set as docterine or revelation by brigham young nor any church leader. Brigham Young was a very theoretical man and he wasn't perfect, but hwe was a prophet.

[sixpacktr]

http://www.shields-research.org/General/blood_atonement.htm

This is a letter from the first presidency on blood atonement.

Blood atonement is the atonement of Christ *period*. It has been skewed by anti -mormons saying that we murdured young apostates because it brought salvation to them.

Wrong. There is zero evidences of any one being murdured because of blood atonement.

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai048.html

We have to remeber that the discourses were not set as docterine or revelation by brigham young nor any church leader. Brigham Young was a very theoretical man and he wasn't perfect, but hwe was a prophet.

Good work Vinny.

That stuff is trotted out from time to time again to show how crazy we all are...

[Jason]

Nobody's saying that you're crazy. We might say that Brigham Young and his two counselors Heber C. Kimball and Jedidiah M. Grant (the main propagators of this doctrine) were crazy....but they're dead now, and you've since repudiated that nonsense.

My point was that John D. Lee, being the adopted spiritual son of Brigham Young, very well took those teachings to heart and killed those people in MM to "save" them.

Though we have no direct evidence of BY's involvement, his sermons implicate him as an accomplice.

[Jason]

An example from Elder Jedidiah M. Grant of the First Presidency:

REBUKING INIQUITY

Remarks by President J. M. Grant, Delivered in the Bowery,

Great Salt Lake City, September 21, 1856.

4:49

I feel that the remarks which we have heard this morning are true, and they apply directly to you who are now present, and to the inhabitants of this city and of the Territory generally, and we do not excuse any of you.

If the arrows of the Almighty ought to be thrown at you we want to do it, and to make you feel and realize that we mean you. And although we talk of the old clay's being ground in the mill, we do not mean it to apply to some other place, for we have enough here who have been dried ever since their baptism, and many of them are cracked and spoiling.

Some have received the Priesthood and a knowledge of the things of God, and still they dishonor the cause of truth, commit adultery, and every other abomination beneath the heavens, and then meet you here or in the street, and deny it.

These are the abominable characters that we have in our midst, and they will seek unto wizards that peep, and to star-gazers and soothsayers, because they have no faith in the holy Priesthood, and then when they meet us, they want to be called Saints.

The same characters will get drunk and wallow in the mire and filth, and yet they call themselves Saints, and seem to glory in their conduct, and they pride themselves in their greatness and in their abominations.

They are the old hardened sinners, and are almost-if not altogether-past improvement, and are full of hell, and my prayer is that God's indignation may rest upon them, and that He will curse them from the crown of their heads to the soles of their feet.

I say, that there are men and women that I would advise to go to the President immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood.

We have those amongst us that are full of all manner of abominations, those who need to have their blood shed, for water will not do, their sins are of too deep a dye.

You may think that I am not teaching you Bible doctrine, but what says the apostle Paul? I would ask how many covenant breakers there are in this city and in this kingdom. I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood.

Talk about old clay; I would rather have clay from a new bank than some that we have had clogging the wheels for the last nineteen years. They are a perfect nuisance, and I want them cut off, and the sooner it is done the better.

We have men who are incessantly finding fault, who get up a little party spirit, and criticise the conduct of men of God. They will find fault with this, that, and the other, and nothing is right for them, because they are full of all kinds of filth and wickedness.

And we have women here who like any thing but the celestial law of God; and if they could break asunder the cable of the Church of Christ, there is scarcely a mother in Israel but would do it this day. And they talk it to their husbands, to their daughters, and to their neighbors, and say they have not seen a week's happiness since they became acquainted with that law, or since their husbands took a second wife. They want to break up the Church of God, and to break it from their husbands and from their family connections.

Then, again, there are men that are used as tools by their wives, and they are just a little better in appearance and in their habits than a little black boy. They live in filth and nastiness, they eat it and drink it, and they are filthy all over.

We have Elders and High Priests that are precisely in this predicament, and yet they are wishing for more of the Holy Ghost, they wish to have it in larger doses. They want more revelation, but I tell you that you now have more than you live up to, more than you practise and make use of.

If I hurt your feelings let them be hurt. And if any of you ask, do I mean you? I answer, yes. If any woman asks, do I mean her? I answer, yes. And I want you to understand that I am throwing the arrows of God Almighty among Israel; I do not excuse any.

I am speaking to you in the name of Israel's God, and you need to be baptized and washed clean from your sins, from your backslidings, from your apostacies, from your filthiness, from your lying, from your swearing, from your lusts, and from every thing that is evil before the God of Israel.

We have been trying long enough with this people, and I go in for letting the sword of the Almighty be unsheathed, not only in word, but in deed.

I go in for letting the wrath of the Almighty burn up the dross and the filth; and if the people will not glorify the Lord by sanctifying themselves, let the wrath of the Almighty God burn against them, and the wrath of Joseph and of Brigham, and of Heber, and of high heaven.

There is nothing to prevent you from being humble and doing right, but your own little, foolish, and wicked acts and doings. I will just tell you that if an angel of God were to pass Great Salt Lake City, while you are in your present state, he would not consider you worthy of his company.

You have got to cleanse yourselves from corruption, before you are fit for the society of those beings. You may hear of people in other cities being baptized and renewing their covenants, but they are not sinners above all others; and except the inhabitants of Great Salt Lake City repent, and do their first works, they shall all likewise perish, and the wrath of God will be upon them and round about them.

You can scarcely find a place in this city that is not full of filth and abominations; and if you would search them out, they would easily be weighed in the balances, and you would then find that they do not serve their God, and purify their bodies.

But the course they are taking leads them to corrupt themselves, the soil, the waters, and the mountains, and they defile everything around them.

Brethren and sisters, we want you to repent and forsake your sins. And you who have committed sins that cannot be forgiven through baptism, let your blood be shed, and let the smoke ascend, that the incense thereof may come up before God as an atonement for your sins, and that the sinners in Zion may be afraid.

These are my feelings, and may God fulfil them. And my wishes are that He will grant the desires of my brethren, that Zion may be purified, and the wicked purged out of her, until God shall say I will bless the rest; until He shall say I will bless your flocks, your herds, your little ones, your houses, your lands, and all that you possess; and you shall be my people, and I will come and take up my abode with you, and I will bless all those that do right; which may He grant, in the name of Jesus. Amen.

http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_04/refJDvol4-9.html

[CrimsonKairos]

I think too many people make too big a deal of Mountain Meadows.

Yes, LDS members murdered settlers passing through Utah.

Yes, women and childen were killed (many of the children were not killed, but adopted by the LDS in the area).

But what's the point of pointing it out over and over and over?

Does it prove the Book of Mormon is false? No.

Does it prove Brigham Young wasn't a prophet? No.

At best, it shows that of all world religions, the LDS Church has had the fewest incidents of religious violence in its past. Name the LDS atroctities: Mountain Meadows....um....er....what's the name of that other one...hmmm?

Exactly.

[vinny15]

Thankyou my friend. I do not appreciate you calling brigham young a prophet crazy.

You dont understand us if you think you can say that and it will not hurt my feelings.

The discourses are not docterine. We cannot take it as such. The church doesnt sustain the journal of discourses so there is no knowledge that it is correct especially online.

I dont justify the killing of those mmm folks. So I dont like the fact that he thinks he was saving them and I dont believe that's what he thought. He was scared and killed them *period*.

J.M. Grant was in the first presidency. They are counselors not prophets. I could be wrong, but I don't believe we sustain the counselors (unless in the apostles) as prophet, seers, and revelators.

Even if we did. We may very well see the imperfection of a human being here. Show me a religion with a lower amount of problems than ours and I'll show you my third nipple. We do quite well when we people dont lie about us.

If I remember correctly David, and Solomon were severe apostates. They took wives that they werent supposed to. in 1kings 15: 5 it says david did what was right in the lord except for uriah the hittite. Solomon is in 1kings 11.

Even though they bothe saw god a few times.

[Jason]

Thankyou my friend. I do not appreciate you calling brigham young a prophet crazy.

Anyone who advocates having your neck slit from ear to ear in order to atone for sins is crazy.

You dont understand us if you think you can say that and it will not hurt my feelings.

I cannot worry about stepping on every bleeding heart that comes along. If it hurts you that I insult a man who's been dead for 130 years, that's your problem.

The discourses are not docterine. We cannot take it as such. The church doesnt sustain the journal of discourses so there is no knowledge that it is correct especially online.

They were doctrine then. Just because your church denies them today doesn't change that.

I dont justify the killing of those mmm folks. So I dont like the fact that he thinks he was saving them and I dont believe that's what he thought. He was scared and killed them *period*.

Well forgive me for not taking your personal opinion on the matter seriously. I doubt you've studied this issue very much, nor have you looked into Juanita Brooks' text, spoken with Gene Sessions at Weber State, nor done much of anything else outside this thread.

J.M. Grant was in the first presidency. They are counselors not prophets. I could be wrong, but I don't believe we sustain the counselors (unless in the apostles) as prophet, seers, and revelators.

You're wrong.

Even if we did. We may very well see the imperfection of a human being here. Show me a religion with a lower amount of problems than ours and I'll show you my third nipple. We do quite well when we people dont lie about us.

I'd like it in a jpeg or gif format posted to your controls page please. And I hope you don't have man-boobs.

The Urantia group has fewer problems. Those who advocate the teachings of Seth have fewer problems. Im sure I can find quite a few more, but those come off the top of my head.

[CrimsonKairos]

When were they founded? How many members do they have? Never heard of them.

[Jason]

Both came around the 1950's I believe.

But the accusation was that nobody has had fewer problems. No other qualification was expressed or implied.

[CrimsonKairos]

Ah Jason, you 'ole lawyer, you.

Fair enough.

[CrimsonKairos]

Wow, you are a noob.

Hey man, don't belittle us because we haven't read all the books you have! Especially a recent convert.

[Jason]

That wasn't a "belittlement" AK. It was just a light jab.

[Guest Yediyd]

That wasn't a "belittlement" AK. It was just a light jab.

All in good fun, Jason...it's cool, I AM a noob! But just you watch me grow!!!

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

That wasn't a "belittlement" AK. It was just a light jab.

All in good fun, Jason...it's cool, I AM a noob! But just you watch me grow!!!

Hey, you can be my "chia pet" and I'll watch you grow!

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

That wasn't a "belittlement" AK. It was just a light jab.

All in good fun, Jason...it's cool, I AM a noob! But just you watch me grow!!!

Hey, you can be my "chia pet" and I'll watch you grow!

Just as long as you keep me watered!!!!