Sin

[Traveler]

I have 4 children, I know all about the struggles of children.

 

I also know that little children are kept alive in Christ before the age of accountability.  You can focus on one step of the process as if that is everything but I think it would be good to look at the whole picture as well.  Because there is spiritual death we need a Savior.  Because we have a Savior we can be kept alive in Christ and not experience the spiritual death and corruption at least until the age of accountability or for those who have conditions in which they cannot hold accountability (i.e - Down's syndrome, etc.). 

...

 

I wanted to focus on this part of your post.  I have known little children under the age of accountability that were in horrid spiritual conditions and that even though they were removed from such conditions before the age of accountability have continued to suffer spiritual hardships their entire life because of conditions that befell them as little children.  I have found the spiritual environment of little children to be of prime importance and that all adults have a responsibility to spiritually protect little children despite your insistence that such efforts are unnecessary because they are "kept alive in Christ".

 

I disagree strongly with your stand that little children cannot be corrupted or touched in any way by unclean spiritual influences.

[Traveler]

Are we on this merry path again of using the word Sin to mean two different things?

 

For Traveler - doing bad things is a sin regardless of whether you know it is bad or not.  It's a black or white - this is right, this is wrong.  Those that you did wrong without knowledge is automatically atoned for by Christ without need for repentance.

....

 

You may have missed the full context - If someone is not cognitively and knowing involved in what is happening - then they have not committed a sin.  For example if someone is 100% convinced they are saving a person's life by giving them needed medication but in reality the medication is what is killing them - since they administered death unknowingly - they did not sin.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I wanted to focus on this part of your post.  I have known little children under the age of accountability that were in horrid spiritual conditions and that even though they were removed from such conditions before the age of accountability have continued to suffer spiritual hardships their entire life because of conditions that befell them as little children.  I have found the spiritual environment of little children to be of prime importance and that all adults have a responsibility to spiritually protect little children despite your insistence that such efforts are unnecessary because they are "kept alive in Christ".

 

I disagree strongly with your stand that little children cannot be corrupted or touched in any way by unclean spiritual influences.

Their spirits cannot.  Again you are combining what happens to a person's body and what happens to their spirit as if they are one in the same.

 

If someone gets Alzheimers that does not mean their spirit gets Alzheimers.  If you would agree to that, why do you have such a hard time understanding that is the case with children.  If children are not raised properly or abused that will be on the head of the person who abuses them as well as the sum total of its effects throughout that childs life.  And then there are predispositions that are purely of the body.  Whether a person takes on the hardships given to them in this life via the body after the age of accountability is up to the person.

 

I've got news for you, pretty much everyone suffers a spiritual let down from where they were before this life but the experience doesn't have to make a person take on that experience as their own or cause a change in their character.  Did Jesus take into His own spirit all the things He experienced in the Garden of Gethsemane?  Knowledge of good and evil does not make a person evil when they did not have knowledge of evil before.  Otherwise Christ would have been made evil by the process as well.  A child who dies before the age of 8 is not negatively spiritually affected by the fallen state she was in prior to her death.  If you disagree then their would be accountability as well as the need to baptize before the age of 8. That is what is meant by being "untainted". President Joseph F. Smith wrote; "The Lord truly knows best and we know that the innocents who have been recalled from earth, so soon after their coming untainted by the sordid elements of this fallen world return to Him from whom they came, pure and holy, redeemed from the foundation, by the sacrifice of one who said “of such is the kingdom of heaven."

 

Once a person passes the age of accountability they then face the corrupted nature of the brain, carnality and animalistic drives that may have been building up strength throughout their under age 8 years.  Whereas those that learn wisdom in their youth and have been blessed with love in the home will face less of a challenge after reaching the age of 8.  Either way, both the spirit that has to face an even more carnal body compared to one that is kept less carnal were maintained spiritually pure up until the age of 8. 

[Guest]

I wanted to focus on this part of your post.  I have known little children under the age of accountability that were in horrid spiritual conditions and that even though they were removed from such conditions before the age of accountability have continued to suffer spiritual hardships their entire life because of conditions that befell them as little children.  I have found the spiritual environment of little children to be of prime importance and that all adults have a responsibility to spiritually protect little children despite your insistence that such efforts are unnecessary because they are "kept alive in Christ".

 

I disagree strongly with your stand that little children cannot be corrupted or touched in any way by unclean spiritual influences.

 

 

All adults have a responsibility to spiritually protect little children - NOT because they might sin - but because they need to learn right from wrong which is a step towards their maturity.

 

A child who learns nothing but be a prostitute at age 5 does not make him a sinner.  He becomes a sinner when, at the age where he is mature enough to discern right from wrong, he chooses to be a prostitute.  That sin is on him.  The sin of the parents for not teaching him right from wrong is a separate sin - and they have been accountable for that sin even when the child was only at age 5 and incapable of sin.

[Traveler]

Their spirits cannot.  Again you are combining what happens to a person's body and what happens to their spirit as if they are one in the same.

 

If someone gets Alzheimers that does not mean their spirit gets Alzheimers.  If you would agree to that, why do you have such a hard time understanding that is the case with children.  If children are not raised properly or abused that will be on the head of the person who abuses them as well as the sum total of its effects throughout that childs life.  And then there are predispositions that are purely of the body.  Whether a person takes on the hardships given to them in this life via the body after the age of accountability is up to the person.

 

I've got news for you, pretty much everyone suffers a spiritual let down from where they were before this life but the experience doesn't have to make a person take on that experience as their own or cause a change in their character.  Did Jesus take into His own spirit all the things He experienced in the Garden of Gethsemane?  Knowledge of good and evil does not make a person evil when they did not have knowledge of evil before.  Otherwise Christ would have been made evil by the process as well.  A child who dies before the age of 8 is not negatively spiritually affected by the fallen state she was in prior to her death.  If you disagree then their would be accountability as well as the need to baptize before the age of 8. That is what is meant by being "untainted". President Joseph F. Smith wrote; "The Lord truly knows best and we know that the innocents who have been recalled from earth, so soon after their coming untainted by the sordid elements of this fallen world return to Him from whom they came, pure and holy, redeemed from the foundation, by the sacrifice of one who said “of such is the kingdom of heaven."

 

Once a person passes the age of accountability they then face the corrupted nature of the brain, carnality and animalistic drives that may have been building up strength throughout their under age 8 years.  Whereas those that learn wisdom in their youth and have been blessed with love in the home will face less of a challenge after reaching the age of 8.  Either way, both the spirit that has to face an even more carnal body compared to one that is kept less carnal were maintained spiritually pure up until the age of 8. 

 

The spirits of children are untouched by abuse?   How can we then say that there is abuse?  What possible problem could there  be in abusing children if their spirits remain untouched?  I see the answer as many fold but Proverbs 22:6 indicates that the manner in which a child is raised has influence on their life later as an adult.  Every modern study I have seen reaches exactly the same conclusion -- mess up someone's childhood and they will suffer spiritually the rest of their mortal life.  Children are our most important spiritual concern - not our lease concern.

 

I would submit that children are directly in the cross-hairs of Satan's greatest efforts - and it is not because he is stupid or that on the day children become accountable all his efforts will be lost and he will have to start over.  To suggest that children are spiritually safe and that we should concentrate all our efforts on older individuals that have reached accountability - is silly, stupid, sick and wrong.

 

To be clear I am not saying that children are accountable - what I am saying is that there will be accountability for spiritual damage to children - just that it will not rest on the child but to be sure there is accountability for spiritually corrupting children.  It appears to me that you are saying that there is no spiritual damage or even possible spiritual damage and therefore no one need fear what spiritual harm may come to small children.  No harm no foul?

 

I will go even deeper into this.  If an adult brings unclean spiritual influence into a home through videos or other such things and thinks to protect children by not allowing the children to see or hear - I honestly believe and have observed that such efforts are false and that bringing such unclean spirits into the home where there are, that the children will be spiritually harmed.   You seem to think children are protected therefore no damage is done to children.  You and I disagree greatly - I also believe that a parent that is dishonest in their business dealings (or any number of other things) outside of their home will unwittingly bring unclean spirits that will spiritually infect their children as surely as as exposing them to "physical" sicknesses.   Furthermore unlike you I do not believe children are spiritually protected but just the opposite -- that children under the age of accountability are far more spiritually vulnerable and less protected than someone that is accountable and can protect themselves.  The only reason they leave life through death with any relief is because of the atonement of Christ. 

 

As I understand the responsibilities of an adult - not only do we have responsibilities to teach children correct principles and introduce them to a good spiritual environment that will not harm them - I believe we are responsible to insure that children (not just our own) are not introduced into any unclean spiritual environments -- Because I believe that they are extremely vulnerable and very susceptible to unclean spiritual exposure.

[Traveler]

All adults have a responsibility to spiritually protect little children - NOT because they might sin - but because they need to learn right from wrong which is a step towards their maturity.

 

A child who learns nothing but be a prostitute at age 5 does not make him a sinner.  He becomes a sinner when, at the age where he is mature enough to discern right from wrong, he chooses to be a prostitute.  That sin is on him.  The sin of the parents for not teaching him right from wrong is a separate sin - and they have been accountable for that sin even when the child was only at age 5 and incapable of sin.

 

I believe a child that is forced into prostitution at age 5 will be spiritually damaged.  I believe that damage will be corrected in the next life and sometimes even in this life through the atonement of Christ.  But I am quite sure there is spiritual damage to such and individual and that someone will be held accountable for that spiritual damage.  But sadly I believe that such an individual will suffer greatly because of the spiritual damage.

 

I also think it is quite possible that most (maybe even 99%) of the spiritual damage caused by adults has seed in their childhood when they were not accountable - which often causes me to ponder who will be accountable and for what?

[Guest]

I believe a child that is forced into prostitution at age 5 will be spiritually damaged. I believe that damage will be corrected in the next life and sometimes even in this life through the atonement of Christ. But I am quite sure there is spiritual damage to such and individual and that someone will be held accountable for that spiritual damage. But sadly I believe that such an individual will suffer greatly because of the spiritual damage.

I also think it is quite possible that most (maybe even 99%) of the spiritual damage caused by adults has seed in their childhood when they were not accountable - which often causes me to ponder who will be accountable and for what?

If you say that those children who are psychologically damaged - for whatever reason - autism, Down's syndrome, malnutrition, pollution, medication, prostitution - are spiritually damaged then ok... I disagree with you, but ok...

It is very clear who is responsible - The sin is on the head of the parents - if they do not teach the children correct principles according to their knowledge.

We are on this earth to face obstacles. Your obstacle is different from mine and different from the 5-year-old prostitute.... There is nothing that God allows for us to act upon that is more than we can bear.

[Traveler]

If you say that those children who are psychologically damaged - for whatever reason - autism, Down's syndrome, malnutrition, pollution, medication, prostitution - are spiritually damaged then ok... I disagree with you, but ok...

It is very clear who is responsible - The sin is on the head of the parents - if they do not teach the children correct principles according to their knowledge.

We are on this earth to face obstacles. Your obstacle is different from mine and different from the 5-year-old prostitute.... There is nothing that God allows for us to act upon that is more than we can bear.

I have wondered long and hard about sin and spiritual damage.  I am quite certain that there are elements of the fall that are both sin and spiritual corruption or damage.  Being removed from the presents of the Father is, as best as I can reason, is itself a sin that spiritually damages all who experience the fall - even such a experience for a millisecond.  The reality is that no one who is experiencing or has experienced the fall has grounds to argue their righteousness or entitlements to any eternal blessings.  We all - every living soul deserves and has justly earned eternal damnation regardless of age or other station or situation in our mortal life probation. 

 

I believe that the only reason that any spirit that has experienced the fall may have possibility to avoid eternal damnation is under relief offered only through the Atonement of Christ.  As I have thought through all this and applied reason I am convinced that children are a special case not because they have not been spiritually damaged or remain completely untouched by evil influences but because they are not capable of spiritually hearing and understanding the principles of repentance over the din of spiritual corruption that is the fall and everything associated with the fall - including the vast array of psychological or any other challenges.  Without the atonement of Christ there is no hope for anyone including small children.  But because of the atonement of Christ all children that die before they can be accountable are made pure.

 

I have also pondered the notion that there is no temptation that we cannot bear.  I have come to the conclusion that mostly this is very misunderstood.  In essence what I have come to believe is this idea is an extension of the doctrine that regardless of how hard or how often we fall that we can repent, get back up and continue our mortal probation experience.   In other words that it is not our ability to withstand temptation as it is our opportunity to repent and utilize the atonement of Christ to alter our eternal hope, possibilities and understanding of good triumphing over evil.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The spirits of children are untouched by abuse?   How can we then say that there is abuse?  What possible problem could there  be in abusing children if their spirits remain untouched?  I see the answer as many fold but Proverbs 22:6 indicates that the manner in which a child is raised has influence on their life later as an adult.  Every modern study I have seen reaches exactly the same conclusion -- mess up someone's childhood and they will suffer spiritually the rest of their mortal life.  Children are our most important spiritual concern - not our lease concern.

 

I would submit that children are directly in the cross-hairs of Satan's greatest efforts - and it is not because he is stupid or that on the day children become accountable all his efforts will be lost and he will have to start over.  To suggest that children are spiritually safe and that we should concentrate all our efforts on older individuals that have reached accountability - is silly, stupid, sick and wrong.

 

To be clear I am not saying that children are accountable - what I am saying is that there will be accountability for spiritual damage to children - just that it will not rest on the child but to be sure there is accountability for spiritually corrupting children.  It appears to me that you are saying that there is no spiritual damage or even possible spiritual damage and therefore no one need fear what spiritual harm may come to small children.  No harm no foul?

 

I will go even deeper into this.  If an adult brings unclean spiritual influence into a home through videos or other such things and thinks to protect children by not allowing the children to see or hear - I honestly believe and have observed that such efforts are false and that bringing such unclean spirits into the home where there are, that the children will be spiritually harmed.   You seem to think children are protected therefore no damage is done to children.  You and I disagree greatly - I also believe that a parent that is dishonest in their business dealings (or any number of other things) outside of their home will unwittingly bring unclean spirits that will spiritually infect their children as surely as as exposing them to "physical" sicknesses.   Furthermore unlike you I do not believe children are spiritually protected but just the opposite -- that children under the age of accountability are far more spiritually vulnerable and less protected than someone that is accountable and can protect themselves.  The only reason they leave life through death with any relief is because of the atonement of Christ. 

 

As I understand the responsibilities of an adult - not only do we have responsibilities to teach children correct principles and introduce them to a good spiritual environment that will not harm them - I believe we are responsible to insure that children (not just our own) are not introduced into any unclean spiritual environments -- Because I believe that they are extremely vulnerable and very susceptible to unclean spiritual exposure.

Like I have stated, the effect can be on the wiring of the brain without touching the spirit.

 

You are having a hard time separating effects to the body vs effects to the spirit.  Yes the brain is developing and a child is moldable and to learn wisdom in our youth is important but the spirit is an adult and fully matured.

 

Again, think of the example of Alzheimer's, does Alzheimer's hurt the spirit?  Alzheimer's affects cognition and yet hardly anyone would believe that the spirit also has Alzheimers.  The spirit's capabilities cannot be seen in that scenary but that doesn't mean they have changed underneath.  So, either one believes there are two aspects or forms of cognition, i.e - spirit self and mortal body self, or one has to believe that Alzhiemer's or any other physical condition is also affecting the spirit and cannot be separated. If someone gets shot in the brain and they are kept alive on ventilators for a period of time but are "brain dead" and then they die, I don't think anyone here would believe that the bulet to the brain caused some long lasting spiritual 'bulet to the brain' effect.  So, how is it that someone could be physical brain dead but not spiritual brain dead?  Because those are two separate things. 

 

A child who has been abused as a child and dies before the age of 8 wil not carry any of the negative effects of the abuse with them into the next world.

 

The moment the child hits the age of accountability they are suddenly faced with being accountable for how the character of the body influences the spirit but, you know, we all face different amounts and kinds of challenges in life.  Yes the person responsible for such grief will be held accountable but the challenge wasn't as a result of some kind of spiritual weakness on the part of the child.  Oftentimes the magnitude of the challenges we face in this life are inversely related to our spiritual character.

 

If a child was abused and it does affect them later in life, then, as harsh as this may sound, they were likely put in that situation for a reason, that is one of the challenges they were supposed to face in life just like if they were to get rhuematic fever as a child.  Remember that sometimes bad things happen to good people because they will stand witness to those that do bad.  Alma 14; " 11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day."  Some of these brave and righteous souls volunteered for such a position, to have that challenge in life, to be called to stand witness against those that did evil to them and this is why God lets these things happens sometimes.  But it is important to know that the spirit of the person affected by such evil doing is not evil because that is happening to them.  It is not a reflection of the status of their spirit any more than the blind man commited some sin to be blind at birth.

 

I like these two quotes in that regard; "As Elder Neil L. Andersen of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has said, “Distancing yourself from the kingdom of God during a trial of faith is like leaving the safety of a secure storm cellar just as the tornado comes into view.”

Elder Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has taught, “Peace comes from knowing that the Savior knows who we are and knows that we have faith in Him, love Him, and keep His commandments, even and especially amid life’s devastating trials and tragedies.”

 

God knows who we really are, we are not the sum of how the world corrupts the brain and its drives but the spirit within that could still be holding onto faith despite the devastating storms of abuse and tragedy one faces.  What matters is the inner man. 

And D&C 121; "6 Remember thy suffering saints, O our God; and thy servants will rejoice in thy name forever.

 7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;

 8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes."

 

Often our afflictions are for a small moment - but not permanent!!  If we endure we triumph over them even if they are kept a lifetime like Paul's thorn in the flesh, they shall be gone when we die and return to the dust they came from.

[Traveler]

...

 

Again, think of the example of Alzheimer's, does Alzheimer's hurt the spirit?  Alzheimer's affects cognition and yet hardly anyone would believe that the spirit also has Alzheimers.  The spirit's capabilities cannot be seen in that scenary but that doesn't mean they have changed underneath.  So, either one believes there are two aspects or forms of cognition, i.e - spirit self and mortal body self, or one has to believe that Alzhiemer's or any other physical condition is also affecting the spirit and cannot be separated. If someone gets shot in the brain and they are kept alive on ventilators for a period of time but are "brain dead" and then they die, I don't think anyone here would believe that the bulet to the brain caused some long lasting spiritual 'bulet to the brain' effect.  So, how is it that someone could be physical brain dead but not spiritual brain dead?  Because those are two separate things. 

 

...

 

How to determine if a spirit is being disadvantaged in any experience? - including an Alzheimer experience?  First off, I am of the believe that the default condition of being a fallen entity is that if a spirit is not being strengthened by an experience that by condition of the fall and being subject to evil - we can understand by the principle of opposition that the spirit is being weakened.  Thus the question we should ask is - does having Alzheimer's bring a person closer to G-d which means help them keep his commandments?

 

I myself cannot honestly answer that question directly and completely - only if I speculate and I am not a big fan of speculation without some compelling evidence or reason and then leaving opportunity for learning additional possibilities.  In essence I see such a question as a problem with too many unknowns.  I am inclined to speculate with what reason is available that such a condition of Alzheimer's of itself does not or is not helpful or hurtful but that perhaps there can be conditions concerning spiritual parameters that could offer solution to the question.  In short I am thinking that having Alzheimer's will be damaging to the human spirit unless there is some divine assistance to turn such an experience to something beneficial.  I say this because I believe this to be the case with whatever experience one may be having.  However, I am open to new ideas based on rational principles that are isotropic (meaning consistent) with verifiable experience - and not so much based on untested personal prejudices.

 

Actually Seminary - I think this thought is 100% what you are trying to say concerning that G-d judges according to the desire of our heart.  But I do not believe that concept is direct enough - rather I am thinking that in such a struggle that the efforts of the spirit to seek out divine assistance is similar but perhaps more descriptive.

[Seminarysnoozer]

How to determine if a spirit is being disadvantaged in any experience? - including an Alzheimer experience?  First off, I am of the believe that the default condition of being a fallen entity is that if a spirit is not being strengthened by an experience that by condition of the fall and being subject to evil - we can understand by the principle of opposition that the spirit is being weakened.  Thus the question we should ask is - does having Alzheimer's bring a person closer to G-d which means help them keep his commandments?

 

I myself cannot honestly answer that question directly and completely - only if I speculate and I am not a big fan of speculation without some compelling evidence or reason and then leaving opportunity for learning additional possibilities.  In essence I see such a question as a problem with too many unknowns.  I am inclined to speculate with what reason is available that such a condition of Alzheimer's of itself does not or is not helpful or hurtful but that perhaps there can be conditions concerning spiritual parameters that could offer solution to the question.  In short I am thinking that having Alzheimer's will be damaging to the human spirit unless there is some divine assistance to turn such an experience to something beneficial.  I say this because I believe this to be the case with whatever experience one may be having.  However, I am open to new ideas based on rational principles that are isotropic (meaning consistent) with verifiable experience - and not so much based on untested personal prejudices.

 

Actually Seminary - I think this thought is 100% what you are trying to say concerning that G-d judges according to the desire of our heart.  But I do not believe that concept is direct enough - rather I am thinking that in such a struggle that the efforts of the spirit to seek out divine assistance is similar but perhaps more descriptive.

"Disadvantage" is not what you were suggesting.  Disadvantage is a temporary situation in which the entity is not really changed but their situation makes them not 100% itself, implying the disadvantage is a temporary state and can be removed.  You were suggesting that the spirit has some intrinsic, long lasting effect characteristic effect.  The fleshy veil of our body can disadvantage the spirit and yet the spirit is either strengthened by the experience or can remain unchanged by it or can be broken by the disadvantage.  The disadvantage doesn't automatically alter the spirit.  And the "disadvantage" is not self, it is something external to self.  If it was self then disadvantage is not the right word, you should say "fault", "failure", "shortcoming" or something like that.  I think "disadvantage" is a good word but that is not what you are implying.

 

Look, if I had one World's strongest man on one end of a rope pulling against another World's strongest man it wouldnt be fair to say that World's strongest man number one is weak because the rope is not moving one way or the other.   If one is only looking at the rope to measure strength and ability then, yes the rope is not moving anywhere.  And even if World's strongest man (runner up) #2 was to lose the tug of war, he might be strengthened by the experience, you wouldn't say that he was weakened by it.  The loss of the tug-of war could weaken the runner up if he said, "I lost, I am no good at this, I am weak" Then he takes on the characteristics of the effect of the opposition and shows no integrity.  This life is a test of integrity, can we be our true self and maintain our true identity under these unbelievable conditions, having fallen very far from our previous self. The key is in knowing that this life is temporary, it is a probationary existence that will all end in a short time for each of us.   Have an eternal perspective.

 

The hang up that you have is that you have a hard time separating the "opposition" from self, it is all one in the same to you. Whatever happens to the body happens to the spirit for you.  This is a mistake.  Anyone who knows what happens to a soul with Trisomy 21 while in this temporary life knows that that is not true.  When you die, you will leave the corrupted body behind and all that goes with it. But, if the spirit learns to like those weaknesses then it will take those characteristics with it but it doesn't have to. 

 

Opposition is to strengthen, not to incorporate into something less than what we started with. We are fallen so that we might have joy. 

 

Read this one carefully; 2 Nephi 2: "1 And now, Jacob, I speak unto you: Thou art my firstborn in the days of my tribulation in the wilderness. And behold, in thy childhood thou hast suffered afflictions and much sorrow, because of the rudeness of thy brethren.

 2 Nevertheless, Jacob, my firstborn in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God; and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain."

 

Wow, abused by his brothers and yet made stronger for it.  How could that be?

 

 

By the way, the purpose of keeping the commandments is to have a chance to learn how to depend on faith in the Lord so that we might love God with all our heart, might and mind and in that struggle reaching out for our Savior's help often as we attempt to keep the commandments.  Whether one keeps them or not is less important than what is in the heart - the whole letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. So, whether Alzheimer's brings people closer to God or not is not judged by how many commandments they keep but how their soul becomes dependent on the saving grace of our Lord.

[Traveler]

...

 

The hang up that you have is that you have a hard time separating the "opposition" from self, it is all one in the same to you. Whatever happens to the body happens to the spirit for you.  This is a mistake.  Anyone who knows what happens to a soul with Trisomy 21 while in this temporary life knows that that is not true.  When you die, you will leave the corrupted body behind and all that goes with it. But, if the spirit learns to like those weaknesses then it will take those characteristics with it but it doesn't have to. 

 

...

 

It is my understanding that our spirit takes with it all that was learned and experienced in this life.  That everything will be a "BRIGHT" relocation and that nothing will be lost or forgotten.   Whatever happened to the body will be recorded and remembered perfectly to every last detail by the spirit - so much more than what is remembered in mortality.   The power of the priesthood will be exercised to clean and purify our spirits according to our agency in preparation for the resurrection - much like baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost does or should in this life.  In fact we will learn that baptism by the power of the priesthood is just a beginning that must be completed before other "things" of the priesthood can take place.

 

I would add - that it is my understanding that so subtle is our passing that few even realize when we actually die because they do not realize that their spirit is not longer joined to their body.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is my understanding that our spirit takes with it all that was learned and experienced in this life.  That everything will be a "BRIGHT" relocation and that nothing will be lost or forgotten.   Whatever happened to the body will be recorded and remembered perfectly to every last detail by the spirit - so much more than what is remembered in mortality.   The power of the priesthood will be exercised to clean and purify our spirits according to our agency in preparation for the resurrection - much like baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost does or should in this life.  In fact we will learn that baptism by the power of the priesthood is just a beginning that must be completed before other "things" of the priesthood can take place.

 

I would add - that it is my understanding that so subtle is our passing that few even realize when we actually die because they do not realize that their spirit is not longer joined to their body.

It takes with it all that was learned by the principle of faith and experience, that is a key component to not leave out.  You are trying to include things that were not experienced.

 

We already did that kind of learning before coming here, all of us.  We matured and learned all we could while in the presence of God for eons and eons, more than we possibly could learn even if you added all the learning of man together throughout the years man has been on Earth. Both you and I and everyone has learned all that man could learn from a secular standpoint before coming here, all knowledge of science, math, medicine, anatomy, social sciences, etc.  All of that was learned.  The thing we didn't have a chance to learn in the pre-mortal life was the experience of having to live by faith.  This is what we take in addition to what we already learned.  All the other stuff is not in addition to what we have previously learned.

 

Elder Bednar; "Learning by faith and from experience are two of the central features of the Father’s plan of happiness. The Savior preserved moral agency through the Atonement and made it possible for us to act and to learn by faith. Lucifer’s rebellion against the plan sought to destroy the agency of man, and his intent was that we as learners would only be acted upon."

 

Elder Bednar; "The learning I am describing reaches far beyond mere cognitive comprehension and the retaining and recalling of information. The type of learning to which I am referring causes us to put off the natural man (see Mosiah 3:19), to change our hearts (see Mosiah 5:2), to be converted unto the Lord, and to never fall away (see Alma 23:6). Learning by faith requires both “the heart and a willing mind” (D&C 64:34). Learning by faith is the result of the Holy Ghost carrying the power of the word of God both unto and into the heart. Learning by faith cannot be transferred from an instructor to a student through a lecture, a demonstration, or an experiential exercise; rather, a student must exercise faith and act in order to obtain the knowledge for himself or herself."

 

Also, when we repent, truly, we will remember them no more. They will be washed completely.

[Traveler]

It takes with it all that was learned by the principle of faith and experience, that is a key component to not leave out.  You are trying to include things that were not experienced.

 

...

 

No! - it is my understanding that the spirit takes a very bright memory and complete recollection of everything we learn and experienced in this life.  I would note that my understanding is not just from trying to interpret scripture.

[Seminarysnoozer]

No! - it is my understanding that the spirit takes a very bright memory and complete recollection of everything we learn and experienced in this life.  I would note that my understanding is not just from trying to interpret scripture.

Everything we learn by faith and experience through faith as well as things characteristics that are taken in by the spirit, these are things that are often described as being "written in our heart".  What does the phrase "written in our heart" mean to you?

 

Paul explains (as he does often talking about the difference between carnal and spiritual things);

2 Cprinthians 2: " 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart."

...

"9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

 13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away."

 

Things that are spiritual remaineth as glorious, things that are done away with may have glory for the moment but do not last (i.e - the body).  But to remain, the veil which is upon the heart has to be removed, as Paul explains in verse 15.  And that is done by turning to the Lord, then it can be written in the heart.  If it is not written in the heart, it is done away with.  Of course he is relating this to the law of Moses but knowing that the law of Moses was the lesser law that deals with what is on the surface, sanctifying the body in order to penetrate to the spiritual learning, the literal act of overcoming the body by Christ for all of us allows us to focus on the spiritual needs and learning, the things that are written in the heart. 

 

Also, many have talked about the difference between spiritual learning vs secular learning that I know we have discusse in other threads. 

 

This is the difference between spiritual learning vs secular learning, again explained by Paul; "

 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."

 

He is saying in no uncertain terms that if a person is undisciplined in faith (reprobate concerning the faith) that they can learn but never come to the knowledge of the truth and proceed no further because they did it without faith.

"14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;"   WIth faith we can continue in what we have learned if we acknowledge where they have come from.

[Quin]

One frequently reads/hears that the Prophet or the Church leadership has said it is better not to do something. Ex: Better not to get tattoos, better not to get more than 1 ear piercing.

My question: Is doing those things a sin? When does behavior that is disapproved of become sinful, if ever? Telling me something is 'wrong' is not the same as telling me it is sinful. Maybe it's just my interpretation, I dunno.

For myself:

Sin = Fault

...

To use some of the examples already given.

- Abused child. Is it their fault? No. So it is not their sin. UNTIL what they are doing in their lives is no longer a direct result of someone else's sins, but their own choices. It's an unclear line... Because dad hits son, son hits dog. The sin is the father's. The fault is the father's. Until, at a certain point, the sins of the father become the sins of the son. When? When will that line be crossed and the child chooses to become an abuser instead of a victim? God only knows. But at a certain point, it happens. We can try to put artificial boundaries (8, 13, 18, never) on when it "should" happen... But in reality? There simply becomes a time when the "fault" changes hands. When our actions become our own responsibility.

- Tattoos, piercings (seriously cracks me up when "extra" enters the conversation. Um. If a hole in your body placed their for ornament is wrong? Then it's wrong. Or it's not. Star bellied sneeches with stars upon thars. 1? 2? 50? 0?), and other aesthetics. Some people regard these as sins, as desecrating their temples. Others do not. What does God say? Crickets. What do the apostles say? That you will regret them. Regrettable actions are not the same things as sins, in my experience. Squares & rectangles. I think it only becomes a sin if someone does something Permenant to someone else against their wishes . Then there is fault. Otherwise, there is simply responsibility. I am responsible for the tattoos on my body. Because I put them them. (Technically, I paid someone else to do it, but the responsibility is my own). Do I regret them? No. Shall I? Perhaps. Does that make it a sin? No. If, however, I ALREADY regret them... If I'm doing something to myself that I believe is wrong... Then that's sin, because I am faulting myself. I am being untrue. Like gluttony. 2 people joygasmic over cheesecake. One sinning in gluttony, the other revelling in the joy of creation. 2 people put to death. One a victim of murder, the other a righteous kill in self defense (self defense shifts fault). It is not the act ITSELF that is sinful. But the application of it.

Your fault = your sin

Someone else's fault = their sin

Your responsibility = application/intent

Q

[Guest Silarias]

One frequently reads/hears that the Prophet or the Church leadership has said it is better not to do something. Ex: Better not to get tattoos, better not to get more than 1 ear piercing.

 

My question: Is doing those things a sin? When does behavior that is disapproved of become sinful, if ever? Telling me something is 'wrong' is not the same as telling me it is sinful. Maybe it's just my interpretation, I dunno.

 

To answer this question, we need to look into the whats and whys of things like piercings or tattoos.  

 

Is mutilating your body a sin? (We are commanded not to kill, and includes the self.)  Why are you getting the piercings or tattoos?  Is it for selfish reasons?  Will doing those things bring the Spirit of God closer to you, or drive him away?

 

Many members of the church learn and teach that getting tattoos and piercings is sinful, but that's only scratching the surface.  We are taught in the New Testament that our bodies are Temples of God.  God created them, not us.  In our bodies is our spirit; in the Holy Temple is the Holy Spirit of God.  Is getting a tattoo any different than slapping multi-colored paint onto the edifice of a Holy Temple?  Is getting an earring any different from adding a gaudy ornament to a temple spire?  What would church members think if they came to the Temple one day and they found graffiti on the temple walls?  What would NON-members think of our Church if they saw that?

 

I can rant about this all I want, but in the end, you have to turn to Heavenly Father with questions like these.  The Holy Spirit will guide you to the right choices if you listen and obey.

[Traveler]

Everything we learn by faith and experience through faith as well as things characteristics that are taken in by the spirit, these are things that are often described as being "written in our heart".  What does the phrase "written in our heart" mean to you?

 

...

 

Greetings again my friend Seminary.  I would thank you for asking your question and I intend to get straight to the "heart" of it in my response.  :)

 

I think that we agree that the human organ that pumps blood through our physical body is not what is meant here.  When we speak of the heart of something - what are the possibilities?  To me the heart is the core of all that we are.  It is the essence of us.  I see the heart at the very center of all that is associated with what the heart can represent.  I try to see this as broad as possible.  I think you are trying to see and use the definition as limited and narrow as you can.

 

Taking a page from your thinking - I do not think that writing in our heart is something exclusive for our spirit - because exclusive spirit development was something accomplished in our pre-existance.  I am quite sure that G-d wants us to discipline our physical body and our spirit to be harmonious to his commandments.  It appears to me G-d wants us to commit both our physical and spirit to his commandments. 

 

But I would say something concerning receiving spiritual enlightenment.  Of most importance is to learn of Christ and remember him.  I find it interesting that G-d wants us physically involved in the act of remembering Christ by taking the sacrament often to remember him.  But the act needs to be more than a physical ritual - G-d wants us also to renew our remembrance of Christ spiritually as well.   The sacrament is intended to integrate the remembrance of Christ through both our spirit and physical nature.  Thus it is then written in our heart which is the whole complete center of our spirit and physical self and everything that is part of our nature and who we are.

[SGMan]

Do you need to confess taking a post it note from work to the Bishop? No but you should stop taking post its.

??

[Seminarysnoozer]

Greetings again my friend Seminary.  I would thank you for asking your question and I intend to get straight to the "heart" of it in my response.  :)

 

I think that we agree that the human organ that pumps blood through our physical body is not what is meant here.  When we speak of the heart of something - what are the possibilities?  To me the heart is the core of all that we are.  It is the essence of us.  I see the heart at the very center of all that is associated with what the heart can represent.  I try to see this as broad as possible.  I think you are trying to see and use the definition as limited and narrow as you can.

 

Taking a page from your thinking - I do not think that writing in our heart is something exclusive for our spirit - because exclusive spirit development was something accomplished in our pre-existance.  I am quite sure that G-d wants us to discipline our physical body and our spirit to be harmonious to his commandments.  It appears to me G-d wants us to commit both our physical and spirit to his commandments. 

 

But I would say something concerning receiving spiritual enlightenment.  Of most importance is to learn of Christ and remember him.  I find it interesting that G-d wants us physically involved in the act of remembering Christ by taking the sacrament often to remember him.  But the act needs to be more than a physical ritual - G-d wants us also to renew our remembrance of Christ spiritually as well.   The sacrament is intended to integrate the remembrance of Christ through both our spirit and physical nature.  Thus it is then written in our heart which is the whole complete center of our spirit and physical self and everything that is part of our nature and who we are.

For me, this life is primarily a test and also for experience.  There is a chance to change but very little is given from our true nature.  Our true spiritual nature is revealed by this experience, not so much developed.  During the course of this mortal life we call it development because it is so hidden behind the veil that as it reveals itself it appears like "development" but it is more like remembering, remembering who we really are and where we came from.  It is a form of restoration, redeeming, going back to where we were through the process of relying on a Savior.  The distance we make it back to the previous state is a measurement of ones dependence on faith and spirituality.  That is the test.

 

Often times "change" in the scriptures relates to the growth back from the fallen state.  But if one takes a few steps back from the fallen state, to the pre-mortal realm, then it appears that "change" is really coming back to where we were.

 

If I showed you a puzzle, then pulled the pieces appart and then asked you to put it back together again in the middle of a thundering, lightning rain storm, one could improve the picture of the puzzle by putting the pieces back together again but at best it is to the point of which it started.  The thing that is gained is an appreciation for how the puzzule came together in the first place and a respect for its individual pieces and the value of gaining one that is fully put together.  Without having the experience of appreciating how difficult it is to put together one might not see the beauty of a finished puzzle as much as one who has been walked through the process a bit.

 

Just like taking a final exam, one hopes they have prepared as well as they could have before taking the test.  During the test, sure, there may be things revealed and helps along the way to remind you of formulas one may have forgoten or a question that helps another question down the road.  But the final exam should not be like the study class.  Now is the time to pass the test or not. 

 

The wording of a final exam isn't necesarily meant to represent what will actually happen in the "real" world to that specificity but more of the general lesson.  If the test says that "Jack and Jill take separate trains heading opposite each other at 40 miles per hour but Jacks stops 2 hours before Jills, how far appart will they be in 7 hours?"  That does not mean that in the real world someone would actually encounter a person named Jack and a person named Jill traveling in trains going 40 miles per hour traveling opposite each other etc.   Likewise this life is a general test of character, not a specific one to test specific things we will deal with in the next life.  We are told that if we are good stewards with small things we will be given much greater responsibility in the next life, not the same responsibility - a different one.  If someone has to struggle with Down's sydrome in this life, that certainly does not mean they will have a similar struggle in the next life.  Those that are low will be made high, etc. One cannot relate specific physical tests to actual physical states in the next life but the spiritual growth and faith filled lesson will prove valuable.