Counterfeit Christ

[Snow]

I transfer this quote of Stephen's to give the topic it's own thread

You have to know who Jesus Christ is to be re-born. Salvation cannot come from a counterfeit Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is not the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.....Another Jesus Christ who came into existence after Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother had intercourse.

The Jesus Christ of the Bible is without beginning of days or end of life.

There is no hope of salvation in a Jesus Christ that does not exist.

The beliefs of Mormonism contradicts what the Bible teaches about God and as such I cannot accept them. The Bible is the bench mark and standard of truth. If you disagree its no big deal to me.

Stephen,

I understand that you have a different outlook on the gospel. All things religious are based on dogma and faith so I can't very well criticize you because you have faith in something unknown and unseen even if it is different that the faith I have in things unknown and unseen. Externally its just dogma; internally one would hope that the Spirit guides them.

BUT, what I do not understand is why your religious position are inherently dishonest. What possible good could come out of a deceitful relgious position? I see the options as 1. you don't think God cares if lies are told, or 2. you don't think that people will either notice or mind if your argument is false, or 3. you are just plain immoral and could care less, or maybe 4. You think that God wants you to lie and that the ends justify the means.

I want to be fair to you so if I missed any reason that might motivate you to post something so dishonest, please say so.

I am sure that no reasonably intelligent adults need me to explain what about your post is so dishonest but if can any less than intelligent people are reading, I will review the three lies that are either explicit or implicit in your post:

1. You imply that Mormons worship a counterfeit Christ, another Christ from the one that you worship. No honest person misunderstands that Mormons worship the exact same Christ. And no intelligent person fails to grasp that Mormons just believe different things and different attributes about that Christ than do you.

2. You claim that Mormon doctrine holds that Christ was born as a result of a physical sex act between God and Mary. That is dishonest as any intelligent Mormons can tell you. Though the world abounds in speculation and opinion, there is no such doctrine in the Church.

3. You claim that Mormonism disagrees with the Bible. Again, any honest and better than ignorant reader immediately knows that the truth of the matter is that Mormons may believe things that the Bible does not address but that, relating to the Bible, we interpret just it different than you interpret it.

I again, I ask you Stephen, how is dishonesty going to further your cause? If it were me that was telling lies about another religion, I probably wouldn't do it publically, but then again, I can't even fathom the motivation for such deceit. Help me out and explain.

ps. I just thought of something. Maybe this is a cry for help. You know how an addict or someone clinically depressed will do something drastic and self-injurious, not because they really want to harm themselves but because they are crying for help? Is there something that you are trying to tell us? Is there something that I haven't thought of that you are in need of, some way that I or others on the board can help you Stephen?

[Tr2]

BUT, what I do not understand is why your religious position are inherently dishonest

I find it very interesting, and humerous, that anybody who disagrees with you is either lying or being dishonest. Is that your latest discussion tool? Or is it a way to put yourself above everybody else?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 28 2004, 05:46 AM

BUT, what I do not understand is why your religious position are inherently dishonest

I find it very interesting, and humerous, that anybody who disagrees with you is either lying or being dishonest. Is that your latest discussion tool? Or is it a way to put yourself above everybody else?

Hon,

Let me go on the record right now. I am neither better nor smarter, nor more insightful than Stephen, though I am a better harp players. Stephen is probably a good guy. I don't even care that he is evangelically inclined just as you are charismatically inclined. I have zero problem or concern with that. I am not "above" him. You can say that I am, but I am telling you that I am not. You can continue to say this about me in every other post you make but I don't feel that way - other than you, I am not better than anyone else - at all.

So let's try and say on topic Trident. Stephen's post had three dishonest assertions. I am addressing the dishonest assertions, not Stephen - though technically he is the one who made them so it is difficult to seperate them. I am going on the record - I assume Stephen to be a decent guy. My question seeks to find out why he makes dishonest arguments or what he hope to accomplish or what we can do to help him.

[Guest Starsky]

just as you are charismatically inclined

[Cal]

Snow---I don't think Stevie-baby is a liar or dishonest, as this requires INTENT TO DECEIVE. I don't think this is the case. I think he really BELIEVES what he is saying. He WANTS to believe it because he needs to feel superior and special, and you can't do that unless you have some adversaries whom you consider inferior to you. It is one of the psychological imparatives of most religious thinking. It's the "I'm safer in the world than you because God looks down on me with favor because my beliefs are in harmony with his, and yours aren't". People make up this to feel safe and secure in an inherently insecure and dangerous place.

Our ancestors way back, as their intelligence about and perception of the world became more finely tuned, became aware of how fleeting life can be, and how treacherous a place the world is. To feel better and survive psychologically, we needed mechanisms to assure ourselves that we were being protected, or a least that if we die, things will still be OK. What does this job better than religion! We need it psychologically to live with hope. It is a psychological survival mechanism. Unfortunately, it does lead to the "I AM BETTER, MORE BLESSED, MORE RIGHTOUS (AND THEREFORE MORE BLESSED) AND THEREFORE, SAFER IN THIS DANGEROUS WORLD, THAN YOU ARE" SYNDROME; one that makes us pretty irritating to eachother at times.

What you have pointed out is true--his characterizations of mormonism, at least from the open-minded mormon perspective, are totally out of whack. He has constructed some strawmen and then attacked them with the fury of the lion in Wizard of Oz on steroids.

[Guest Starsky]

I believe this is a problem for many....in both extremes...those who are religious and those who are not...

Jacob 4: 14

14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

IOWs I see Cal and Steve, though seemingly on opposite ends of the spectrum..., actually in the same boat.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 28 2004, 11:03 AM

I believe this is a problem for many....in both extremes...those who are religious and those who are not...

Jacob 4: 14

14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

IOWs I see Cal and Steve, though seemingly on opposite ends of the spectrum..., actually in the same boat.

At least we have a boat! I'm afraid you sank to he bottom of the ocean of enlightenment a long time ago! :) No offense intended.

[Guest Starsky]

At least we have a boat! I'm afraid you sank to he bottom of the ocean of enlightenment a long time ago!  No offense intended.

Nope...I am in a different boat and it is still very much afloat...

[Cal]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 28 2004, 11:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 28 2004, 11:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 28 2004, 11:03 AM

I believe this is a problem for many....in both extremes...those who are religious and those who are not...

Jacob 4: 14

14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

IOWs I see Cal and Steve, though seemingly on opposite ends of the spectrum..., actually in the same boat.

At least we have a boat! I'm afraid you sank to he bottom of the ocean of enlightenment a long time ago! :) No offense intended.

BTW Peace--that scripture you quoted---read it again.

This scripture is villifying the Jews in the mode that the early and later Christians do. I sounds more like something a modern-day anti-semite might say. Likewise, it really doesn't say anything specific enough to be meaningful. It's just ragging on the jewish establishment for not paying attention to the "prophets", who were a politically weak group, sort of like the Green Peace party or Ralph Nader now days.

Quite a predictable line for someone like JS, who would have seen the Jews as the murderers of Jesus and the prophets.

[Guest Starsky]

As usual Cal, you can't identify principle...you are always taken up by the historical particulars...

I see principles only....because principles are eternal and always applicable to everyone every day.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 28 2004, 11:53 AM

As usual Cal, you can't identify principle...you are always taken up by the historical particulars...

I see principles only....because principles are eternal and always applicable to everyone every day.

And the "principle" is..............

[Guest Starsky]

Stiffnecked (unrepentant) people despised the words of plainness, kill (or belittle) the prophets, seek for things that they cannot understand.

Because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they will fall.

God will take away his plainness from them and give them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it.

And because they desired it God has done it and they will stumble.

1st principle: Unrepentant people become blind, search beyond true knowledge to understand what can't be understood...and stumble.

2nd principle: God gives everyone what they really want...even if it isn't good for them...because they desired it instead of the truth.

Again the scripture in D&C 88:40 is reintereated in the scripture from jacob. Also...where your heart is...there is where your treasure is also...

if they have their heart set upon destroying others who do want it...they won't get it...but will be blinded by their hate and anger and averous

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 28 2004, 10:35 AM

Snow---I don't think Stevie-baby is a liar or dishonest, as this requires INTENT TO DECEIVE. I don't think this is the case. I think he really BELIEVES what he is saying. He WANTS to believe it because he needs to feel superior and special, and you can't do that unless you have some adversaries whom you consider inferior to you. It is one of the psychological imparatives of most religious thinking. ...

What you have pointed out is true--his characterizations of mormonism, at least from the open-minded mormon perspective, are totally out of whack. He has constructed some strawmen and then attacked them with the fury of the lion in Wizard of Oz on steroids.

Cal,

You're right, that is one explanation that might explain the kind of thinking necessary to believe like the anti-Mormons think. By anti I mean the religiously oriented anti's who are opposed to Mormonism for reasons like Stephen mentions. I understand that there are others like agnostics or otherwise that are opposed to Mormonism for other reasons. There are several points to consider:

Item One

All Stephens's points are obviously and demonstrably false.

Item Two

Either Stephen knows they are false, or he doesn't know they are false.

Three

If he knows they are false, he (or anyone who makes the same argument), then it is dishonest. Note: the points are all standard anti-Mormon fare.

Four

If the makers of such points does not know that they are false, they are either:

-Too unintelligent to understand basic concepts, or

-Too irrational and lacking in reasoning abilities to grasp logical ideas, or

-Brainwashed.

It is true that anti-Mormons come for the ranks of fundamentalists, It is also true that fundamentalist be they evangelical fundamentalist, Mormon fundamentalists, Muslim fundamentalist, Jewish or Hindu fundamanetalist, are often brainwashed (if there is such a thing) have among them the least intelligent and most irrational of any group. But I hesitate to say such things about Stephen. I don't know what his educational background is and he seems able to reason on other threads and topics.

If it is just a matter of dishonesty, as opposed to intelligence and rationality, then how do these anti-Mormon types justify it? Is attacking Mormons more important to them than obeying God - presumming of course that God commands that you be honest.

Stephen?

[Tr2]

I am neither better nor smarter, nor more insightful than Stephen

Please don't humor me. You and I both know that you do not believe that.

My question seeks to find out why he makes dishonest arguments or what he hope to accomplish or what we can do to help him

You are the last person on this board who should be accusing other people of being dishonest. With all the false accusations and half truths that you manage to type on your keyboard I am amazed you have enough time to accuse somebody else of what you make a habit of practicing.

Let's see his lies

"1. You imply that Mormons worship a counterfeit Christ, another Christ from the one that you worship"

- Your own prophet admitted that he did not worship the same Christ on a nationally televised Larry King show.

"2. You claim that Mormon doctrine holds that Christ was born as a result of a physical sex act between God and Mary."

- This was a teaching from one of your very own prophets. It may not be doctrine but YOUR prophets once taught it as such.

"3. You claim that Mormonism disagrees with the Bible."

-It does! Many mormon traditions and practices do not originate from the bible but from the mouths of your prophets and extra-biblical writings. There are many instances where mormon teachings come into conflict with the bible. There are too many to name. But a few are where Jesus atoned for man's sin, Jesus and Satan being brothers, God being once a man...... I'd get a headache pointing out how many times mormonism conflicts with the bible.

Stephen isn't the liar you are trying to make him out to be. You just can't stand what he is saying so you are lashing out in the only way you know how to. I have noticed that you are simply accusing Stephen of lying and offering no correction. That's ok I have come to expect this level of debate from you.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 28 2004, 06:18 PM

I am neither better nor smarter, nor more insightful than Stephen

Please don't humor me. You and I both know that you do not believe that.

My question seeks to find out why he makes dishonest arguments or what he hope to accomplish or what we can do to help him

You are the last person on this board who should be accusing other people of being dishonest. With all the false accusations and half truths that you manage to type on your keyboard I am amazed you have enough time to accuse somebody else of what you make a habit of practicing.

Let's see his lies

You may think that I am better or smarter than Stephen. You can speak to that as only you know what you believe. I don't believe any such thing.

"1. You imply that Mormons worship a counterfeit Christ, another Christ from the one that you worship"

- Your own prophet admitted that he did not worship the same Christ on a nationally televised Larry King show.

False. That is not true. Didn't happen. I have read the transcripts of the Larry King show and it's not there. Why are you compounding Stephen dishonesty with more dishonesty? It is actually untrue on two counts but since you are the one falsely asserting it, you figure it out.

"2. You claim that Mormon doctrine holds that Christ was born as a result of a physical sex act between God and Mary."

- This was a teaching from one of your very own prophets. It may not be doctrine but YOUR prophets once taught it as such.

So what? Do you have a point. Paul said that man shouldn't get married. Big deal. Lots of people say lots of things. Besides, which prophet are you talking about?

"3. You claim that Mormonism disagrees with the Bible."

-It does! Many mormon traditions and practices do not originate from the bible but from the mouths of your prophets and extra-biblical writings. There are many instances where mormon teachings come into conflict with the bible. There are too many to name. But a few are where Jesus atoned for man's sin, Jesus and Satan being brothers, God being once a man...... I'd get a headache pointing out how many times mormonism conflicts with the bible.

Headaches from point in out so "many times?" How about pointing it out even once? You saying a bunch of principles is a far cry from demonstrating that the restored gospel is contra-bible. If you think you can, stop talking about it and go ahead and try.

Stephen isn't the liar you are trying to make him out to be. You just can't stand what he is saying so you are lashing out in the only way you know how to. I have noticed that you are simply accusing Stephen of lying and offering no correction. That's ok I have come to expect this level of debate from you.

Wrong again. I did correct all three of his dishonest points. You read my post so you know I did. Here is a direct quote of what I said:

1. You imply that Mormons worship a counterfeit Christ, another Christ from the one that you worship. No honest person misunderstands that Mormons worship the exact same Christ. And no intelligent person fails to grasp that Mormons just believe different things and different attributes about that Christ than do you.

2. You claim that Mormon doctrine holds that Christ was born as a result of a physical sex act between God and Mary. That is dishonest as any intelligent Mormons can tell you. Though the world abounds in speculation and opinion, there is no such doctrine in the Church.

3. You claim that Mormonism disagrees with the Bible. Again, any honest and better than ignorant reader immediately knows that the truth of the matter is that Mormons may believe things that the Bible does not address but that, relating to the Bible, we interpret just it different than you interpret it.

Trident in defending the dishonesty of Stephen posts you:

-falsely claimed that on Larry King the prophet said we worship another Christ.

-falsely claimed that Mormons are beliefs that are contrary to the Bible (instead of either extra-biblical beliefs or beliefs that was interpreted differently thans yours from the Bible.

-falsely claimed that I did not correct Stephen.

Now I ask the same question of you that I asked Stephen, how do you reconcile your dishonesty with Christianity?

[note: if you think that I have been dishonest, please point it out and I will quickly correct it]

[DisRuptive1]

Has stephen posted in this thread yet?

[Guest Starsky]

Doesn't appear so.

[broadway]

As an LDS member, I have no idea what you are talking about by saying that our church doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is the first born of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.

BTW, there is no scripture on a Heavenly Mother. Anything said about her is pure speculation. It makes sense that there is a Heavenly Mother and that she would be the spirit mother of Jesus Christ. But no one will be able to find this in scripture anywhere.

There is, however, scripture to back up my saying that Jesus is the first born of Heavenly Father. Although is isn't scripture, allow me to quote a passage from a book by Bruce R McConkie, Mormon Doctrine. " Christ is the Firstborn, meaning that he was the first Spirit Child born to God the Father in pre-existance. (D7C 93:21; John 1: 1-5; Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15) He was also the firstborn of the dead, which signifies that he was the first person to be resurrected. (Col. 1:18)

broadway

[Tr2]

False. That is not true. Didn't happen. I have read the transcripts of the Larry King show and it's not there.

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" Also printed in the LDS Church News on June 20, 1998, p.7.

You can continue to deny all you want the evidence speaks for itself. Your acceptance or denial of these facts changes nothing.

So what? Do you have a point. Paul said that man shouldn't get married. Big deal. Lots of people say lots of things. Besides, which prophet are you talking about?

"So what"??? So I guess Stephen isn't lying after all. You just don't like the truth that he is stating. We both know that those words came from YOUR prophet. I did notice how you do not deny that those words came out of the mouth of an LDS prophet.

How about pointing it out even once?

Did you even read what i wrote? I gave a number of examples.

Now I ask the same question of you that I asked Stephen, how do you reconcile your dishonesty with Christianity?

You are a crybaby! Your own belief system is what you have a problem with. You have been shown how your belief system is what Stephen is saying it is. You just don't like that. Get over it and stop pouting like a child.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 29 2004, 01:41 PM

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ...." Also printed in the LDS Church News on June 20, 1998, p.7.

Thankyou for admitting to your error Trident. You are admitting your deceit aren't you? Having found the quote, you must surely have noticed that it was not from the Larry King show at all, as you falsely claimed. It was from another venue entirely.

Also, having read the quote, you are now aware that President Hinckley indicated that he does not believe in the "traditional Christ," the Christ of tradition, the Christ of the creeds and councils. He do, however believe in the Christ of the New Testament.

This must be embarrassing for you.

So what? Do you have a point. Paul said that man shouldn't get married. Big deal. Lots of people say lots of things. Besides, which prophet are you talking about?

"So what"??? So I guess Stephen isn't lying after all. You just don't like the truth that he is stating.

Wrong again Trident. Stephen is still lying. That a particular Mormon may have had an opinion does not mean that it is an LDS belief as Stephen implied. Unless you accept all opinions of all Christian leaders as being accepted as Christian belief. Do you?

Now I ask the same question of you that I asked Stephen, how do you reconcile your dishonesty with Christianity?

You are a crybaby!

Why are you mad at me hon. Stephen is the one that is dishonest. One would think you might be concerned with that rather than attacking the ones towards whom his dishonesty is directed. How do you reconcile that with your Christian belief sytems?

[Stephen]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 28 2004, 12:34 AM

I transfer this quote of Stephen's to give the topic it's own thread

You have to know who Jesus Christ is to be re-born. Salvation cannot come from a counterfeit Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is not the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.....Another Jesus Christ who came into existence after Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother had intercourse.

The Jesus Christ of the Bible is without beginning of days or end of life.

There is no hope of salvation in a Jesus Christ that does not exist.

The beliefs of Mormonism contradicts what the Bible teaches about God and as such I cannot accept them. The Bible is the bench mark and standard of truth. If you disagree its no big deal to me.

Stephen,

I understand that you have a different outlook on the gospel. All things religious are based on dogma and faith so I can't very well criticize you because you have faith in something unknown and unseen even if it is different that the faith I have in things unknown and unseen. Externally its just dogma; internally one would hope that the Spirit guides them.

BUT, what I do not understand is why your religious position are inherently dishonest. What possible good could come out of a deceitful relgious position? I see the options as 1. you don't think God cares if lies are told, or 2. you don't think that people will either notice or mind if your argument is false, or 3. you are just plain immoral and could care less, or maybe 4. You think that God wants you to lie and that the ends justify the means.

I want to be fair to you so if I missed any reason that might motivate you to post something so dishonest, please say so.

I am sure that no reasonably intelligent adults need me to explain what about your post is so dishonest but if can any less than intelligent people are reading, I will review the three lies that are either explicit or implicit in your post:

1. You imply that Mormons worship a counterfeit Christ, another Christ from the one that you worship. No honest person misunderstands that Mormons worship the exact same Christ. And no intelligent person fails to grasp that Mormons just believe different things and different attributes about that Christ than do you.

2. You claim that Mormon doctrine holds that Christ was born as a result of a physical sex act between God and Mary. That is dishonest as any intelligent Mormons can tell you. Though the world abounds in speculation and opinion, there is no such doctrine in the Church.

3. You claim that Mormonism disagrees with the Bible. Again, any honest and better than ignorant reader immediately knows that the truth of the matter is that Mormons may believe things that the Bible does not address but that, relating to the Bible, we interpret just it different than you interpret it.

I again, I ask you Stephen, how is dishonesty going to further your cause? If it were me that was telling lies about another religion, I probably wouldn't do it publically, but then again, I can't even fathom the motivation for such deceit. Help me out and explain.

ps. I just thought of something. Maybe this is a cry for help. You know how an addict or someone clinically depressed will do something drastic and self-injurious, not because they really want to harm themselves but because they are crying for help? Is there something that you are trying to tell us? Is there something that I haven't thought of that you are in need of, some way that I or others on the board can help you Stephen?

Is anybody who disagrees with Snow automatically a lying and deceitful person.

Protestant Christianity has taught and believed for hundreds of years that you need to know who Jesus Christ really is before you can be Born Again and that there are false Jesus Christ's and false gospels in the world. These things were believed and taught long before the Mormon Church came into existence in 1830.

2 Corinthians 11:

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Those who are not biased bigoted Mormons will recognize a few things that are irrefutable facts:

1) The Mormon Church believes in a different Jesus Christ then mainstream Christianity:

a) Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the first born spirit child of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan and is also the oldest spirit brother of all the people on earth.

B) Biblical Christians believe that Jesus Christ is without literal father and literal mother....that he is without beginning of days or end of life. Biblical Christians believe that Jesus Christ has always existed as a spirit and is the same Son of God that did dwell in the fire with Shadrach, Meeshach and Abindigo as he protected them from being killed by the flames in the fiery furnace. Biblical Christians believe that there was never a time that Jesus Christ did not exist and that he created all of us including Satan and that we are not the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.

In short Mormons believe in a different Jesus Christ then the one described in the Bible. This is what the majority of non-Mormon people recognize if they have done any studying of Mormon doctrine at all and this is also what the vast majority of mainstream Christianity recognizes.

[Tr2]

Thankyou for admitting to your error Trident. You are admitting your deceit aren't you? Having found the quote, you must surely have noticed that it was not from the Larry King show at all, as you falsely claimed. It was from another venue entirely.

Excuse me, it was a natonally published article rather than on a nationally published tv show. You are playing with semantics and trying to deflect attention away from what YOUR prophet has said.

Also, having read the quote, you are now aware that President Hinckley indicated that he does not believe in the "traditional Christ," the Christ of tradition, the Christ of the creeds and councils. He do, however believe in the Christ of the New Testament.

The Christ of the New Testament..... as opposed to the Christ of the Old Testament? Or the Christ of the wicker people? The traditional Christ is the one that Christian churches hold him to be and Hinkley directly said that is who he does NOT believe in. Your Jesus is the Jesus of Joseph Smith, not the Jesus of the bible. Would you like me to show you a few examples of why the mormon Jesus is not like the Jesus of the bible?

That a particular Mormon may have had an opinion does not mean that it is an LDS belief as Stephen implied. Unless you accept all opinions of all Christian leaders as being accepted as Christian belief

You seem to be under the impression that our churches are structured the same. You are wrong... again. The TV preachers you see do not speak for me, nor am I affiliated with them in any way. I respect many public figures such as Billy Graham but he is in no way an authority in my life. He does not have any authority to me whatsoever. The mormon church is not organized that way. The mormon church seems to be structured like a command, similar to the military. Hinkley has authority over you in your church because you subscribe to mormonism. Hinkley is your prophet. I don't have a prophet. It is a very simple concept that in 3 years posting here you have not grasped yet. I am very disappointed in how slow you are to understand simple things.

[Guest Starsky]

In short Mormons believe in a different Jesus Christ then the one described in the Bible. This is what the majority of non-Mormon people recognize if they have done any studying of Mormon doctrine at all and this is also what the vast majority of mainstream Christianity recognizes.

Not hardly. It is the Christians who don't have the true understanding of the NT...and interpret it wrongly.....

And they are interepret it differently between themselves as well.....They are full of confusion..

[Guest Starsky]

You seem to be under the impression that our churches are structured the same. You are wrong... again. The TV preachers you see do not speak for me, nor am I affiliated with them in any way. I respect many public figures such as Billy Graham but he is in no way an authority in my life. He does not have any authority to me whatsoever. The mormon church is not organized that way. The mormon church seems to be structured like a command, similar to the military. Hinkley has authority over you in your church because you subscribe to mormonism. Hinkley is your prophet. I don't have a prophet. It is a very simple concept that in 3 years posting here you have not grasped yet. I am very disappointed in how slow you are to understand simple things.

I will admit...the church has gone over board on the 'line' of authority stuff...the people need more room to act like people as a group, instead of a military....but...I see individual christian churches doing the same thing...

It seems to reflect the leadership....for instance....when a leader gets in that isn't a control freak....this line of authority thing loosens up.

So....maybe right now we seem very militant in our structure...but maybe it isn't the church ingeneral...but maybe it is the leaders...

Now one other thing...it might also be the times we live in where there are so many evil influences and the church being so large feels like a mother with too many children....who becomes controlling in order to prevent out right caos.

I remember some sermons in Romans 13 about adhering to authority....They were having much the same problems back then as we have today...

Maybe it is just good leadership...to be a little controlling...

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Interesting interpretation Trident has of the phrase "false Christ." As I read the warnings against false Christs in the New Testament, the context suggests that Paul is referring to people who falsely claimed to be Christ. He's not talking about different conceptions people will inevitably have about Christ, when all they have to rely on is the Bible's limited information.

And the Bible is limited. By its own admision, it contains only a fraction of Christ's sayings. And the Pauline epistles, while they do provide a strong doctrinal framework, left many questions open -- at least, so open that it took three centuries for Christians to hammer out a general consensus.

There was only one Jesus Christ born to Mary at Bethlehem. Mormons believe in that Jesus. To say that they believe in a "different" Jesus because they have different beliefs from other Christians as to his attributes is precisely one of the"semantic" games that Trident claims to dislike.