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Lakumi

The World and its Creation

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I don't consider one being greater than the other as a distinction of character or being unique.  These are just different points down the same path.  Christ is in the express image of His Father, He does what the Father does, He thinks like the Father thinks, He loves as the Father loves.  I doubt that you can come up with one distinguishing characteristic that one has that the other doesn't or will not have in their path. 

 

...

 

How about this for a "distinguishing characteristic".  Jesus is an individual uniquely himself and not the Father or for that matter anyone else.  Really Seminary - you should know me better than that.    :cool:

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How about this for a "distinguishing characteristic".  Jesus is an individual uniquely himself and not the Father or for that matter anyone else.  Really Seminary - you should know me better than that.    :cool:

So when Joseph Smith saw God the Father and the Son in the sacred grove, you are of the belief that Joseph could distinguish the two without either saying this is me and this is He?

 

You believe that there are unique characteristics that one has that the other doesn't?

 

McConkie; "“Though each God in the Godhead is a personage, separate and distinct from each of the others, yet they are ‘one God’ … , meaning that they are united as one in the attributes of perfection. For instance, each has the fulness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgment, mercy, and faith. Accordingly they all think, act, speak, and are alike in all things; and yet they are three separate and distinct entities. Each occupies space and is and can be in but one place at one time, but each has power and influence that is everywhere present”

 

John 17; " 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."  and " 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me." and "Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."

 

If we know Christ then we know the Father as they are no different ... according to Christ.

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So when Joseph Smith saw God the Father and the Son in the sacred grove, you are of the belief that Joseph could distinguish the two without either saying this is me and this is He?

 

You believe that there are unique characteristics that one has that the other doesn't?

 

McConkie; "“Though each God in the Godhead is a personage, separate and distinct from each of the others, yet they are ‘one God’ … , meaning that they are united as one in the attributes of perfection. For instance, each has the fulness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgment, mercy, and faith. Accordingly they all think, act, speak, and are alike in all things; and yet they are three separate and distinct entities. Each occupies space and is and can be in but one place at one time, but each has power and influence that is everywhere present”

 

John 17; " 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."  and " 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me." and "7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."

 

If we know Christ then we know the Father as they are no different ... according to Christ.

Jesus clearly differentiated between him and the Father. This is empirical evidence that it is possible.

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Jesus clearly differentiated between him and the Father. This is empirical evidence that it is possible.

We are having a language problem here.

 

Definition of differentiate = recognize or ascertain what makes (someone or something) different.  Whereas one of the synonymes of distinct is separate, this is why McConkie says it that way, "separate and distinct from each of the others..."

 

I don't see where Jesus differentiated himself from the Father but clearly states that He is a distinct and separate individual. His speech was always about the sameness between the two.  The phrase "only begotten" translates the Greek word monogenes.

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We are having a language problem here.

 

Definition of differentiate = recognize or ascertain what makes (someone or something) different.  Whereas one of the synonymes of distinct is separate, this is why McConkie says it that way, "separate and distinct from each of the others..."

 

I don't see where Jesus differentiated himself from the Father but clearly states that He is a distinct and separate individual. His speech was always about the sameness between the two.  The phrase "only begotten" translates the Greek word monogenes.

Perhaps we are focusing on different aspects and splitting hairs - but in all references I am familiar with - Jesus testified that the Father was greater than him -- not exactly something that I think should be difficult to differentiate or understand as being different. He did say that he and the Father are one (in Hebrew ehad) which is also the same term used to describe oneness in marriage – which I see as an oneness of individuals that are very different. Having been married for over 40 years I have found by experience that men and women are very different but I believe can be one in the same manner (ehad) that Jesus and the Father are one.

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Perhaps we are focusing on different aspects and splitting hairs - but in all references I am familiar with - Jesus testified that the Father was greater than him -- not exactly something that I think should be difficult to differentiate or understand as being different. He did say that he and the Father are one (in Hebrew ehad) which is also the same term used to describe oneness in marriage – which I see as an oneness of individuals that are very different. Having been married for over 40 years I have found by experience that men and women are very different but I believe can be one in the same manner (ehad) that Jesus and the Father are one.

So you think a woman can do something Heavenly Father can't?

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So you think a woman can do something Heavenly Father can't?

I believe you are asking the wrong question.  I believe that through marriage a man and a woman can accomplish a great deal more than any individual could possibly accomplish or even hope to accomplish on their own.  I do not believe G-d could be G-d without marriage to a woman.  This is the problem I have with feminism - because it focuses on the accomplishments of the individual instead of the accomplishment of a union of differences.  This issue, according to my understanding, of individualism is at the very heart and core in understanding "The knowledge of good and evil".

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I believe you are asking the wrong question.  I believe that through marriage a man and a woman can accomplish a great deal more than any individual could possibly accomplish or even hope to accomplish on their own.  I do not believe G-d could be G-d without marriage to a woman.  This is the problem I have with feminism - because it focuses on the accomplishments of the individual instead of the accomplishment of a union of differences.  This issue, according to my understanding, of individualism is at the very heart and core in understanding "The knowledge of good and evil".

Well, the question got the answer I thought you might give which I think is right.  I think it supports my statement about the lack of individuality and uniqueness that exists at that level.  To love one's neighbor as self is the start of such ability to share the most intimate of experiences as if they are own even if they did not originate with self.  Christ' desire that we be one is the same issue, that we share in what He has done so that we may receive a fullness.  You agreeing that there are shared experiences, that that is possible, like in a marriage opens the door for the possibility that all can share each other's experiences so that there is no proprietary skill or trait or feature that would allow for distinction.  

 

If everything person A has is also received by person B and everything person B has is shared with person A then there is no unique thing between the two. It is only when there is partial sharing that there is a possibility for proprietary ownership of any trait or feature that one would call uniqueness. When Christ says that He is one with God and receives of His glory is that not entirely true?  Does He only get partial glory?

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Well, the question got the answer I thought you might give which I think is right.  I think it supports my statement about the lack of individuality and uniqueness that exists at that level.  To love one's neighbor as self is the start of such ability to share the most intimate of experiences as if they are own even if they did not originate with self.  Christ' desire that we be one is the same issue, that we share in what He has done so that we may receive a fullness.  You agreeing that there are shared experiences, that that is possible, like in a marriage opens the door for the possibility that all can share each other's experiences so that there is no proprietary skill or trait or feature that would allow for distinction.  

 

If everything person A has is also received by person B and everything person B has is shared with person A then there is no unique thing between the two. It is only when there is partial sharing that there is a possibility for proprietary ownership of any trait or feature that one would call uniqueness. When Christ says that He is one with God and receives of His glory is that not entirely true?  Does He only get partial glory?

 

Very good question – unfortunately the answer is not simple and is quite complex.  You may want to do some research on the internet associated with swarm intelligence; so named because initial studies used bio-nature examples.  I became involved with this construct by accident designing automated controls for AGV’s (automated guided vehicles) for an expanding manufacturing facility.  I was able to solve very complex varying work load problems by making individual AGV’s more intelligent through sharing of information and making unique decision based on filtering information for unique individual conditions and abilities of the AGV’s

 

In the manufacturing facility there were 3 different types of AGV’s to do uniquely different transport requirements.  The results were very surprising – my AGV’s were able to constantly accomplish over 50% more deliveries than the same number of human operated vehicles that traveled almost twice as fast.

 

By coordinating the intelligence of unique individuals a super intelligence is created.  We see this occurring over and over again in nature – a wonderful example is an individual’s immune system and the way our bodies fight off bacterial and viral infections.  Our immune system intelligently designs unique individuals to combat uniquely different infection agents.  At the same time information is gathered from other individual cells that comprise our unique individual bodies to assist the specialized immune cells that will deal with the infections.  By sharing intelligence uniquely different cell entities that comprise our bodies are able to accomplish and solve astonishing advanced and difficult problems despite not having any connections to our central nervous system – which is another interesting example of swam intelligence.

 

The bottom line is that it does not matter how intelligent or capable an individual is – if they cooperate with another individual – even if the other individual is vastly inferior or superior – if the two cooperate they will accomplish more together than either individual can accomplish on their own.  Being one with G-d – and all others that are one with him is a very simple and intelligent task of cooperation that involves trust.  It is not a problem solved by being undifferentiated – it really does not require sameness – even uniqueness can form unity through cooperation. 

In summary --- It is the cooperation that is the key not identical capabilities that cause the whole to inherit far more than any individual can on their own.  Thus the glory and capability of G-d is eternally increased by adding (teaching) unique individuals (even if the unique individuals are inferior or not the same) to intelligently cooperate.

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Very good question – unfortunately the answer is not simple and is quite complex.  You may want to do some research on the internet associated with swarm intelligence; so named because initial studies used bio-nature examples.  I became involved with this construct by accident designing automated controls for AGV’s (automated guided vehicles) for an expanding manufacturing facility.  I was able to solve very complex varying work load problems by making individual AGV’s more intelligent through sharing of information and making unique decision based on filtering information for unique individual conditions and abilities of the AGV’s

 

In the manufacturing facility there were 3 different types of AGV’s to do uniquely different transport requirements.  The results were very surprising – my AGV’s were able to constantly accomplish over 50% more deliveries than the same number of human operated vehicles that traveled almost twice as fast.

 

By coordinating the intelligence of unique individuals a super intelligence is created.  We see this occurring over and over again in nature – a wonderful example is an individual’s immune system and the way our bodies fight off bacterial and viral infections.  Our immune system intelligently designs unique individuals to combat uniquely different infection agents.  At the same time information is gathered from other individual cells that comprise our unique individual bodies to assist the specialized immune cells that will deal with the infections.  By sharing intelligence uniquely different cell entities that comprise our bodies are able to accomplish and solve astonishing advanced and difficult problems despite not having any connections to our central nervous system – which is another interesting example of swam intelligence.

 

The bottom line is that it does not matter how intelligent or capable an individual is – if they cooperate with another individual – even if the other individual is vastly inferior or superior – if the two cooperate they will accomplish more together than either individual can accomplish on their own.  Being one with G-d – and all others that are one with him is a very simple and intelligent task of cooperation that involves trust.  It is not a problem solved by being undifferentiated – it really does not require sameness – even uniqueness can form unity through cooperation. 

In summary --- It is the cooperation that is the key not identical capabilities that cause the whole to inherit far more than any individual can on their own.  Thus the glory and capability of G-d is eternally increased by adding (teaching) unique individuals (even if the unique individuals are inferior or not the same) to intelligently cooperate.

Thanks for your comments.  I think this is why we go back and forth so much is because we share similar areas of interest.  I have worked in the neurosciences in the medical field and so obviously, similar ideas exist there.

 

I don't discount the possibility that there are specialized skills utilized by an individual as part of the whole.   In fact, I would agree with you there.  What I am saying though is that I doubt that we would look at ourselves that way anymore than I would say that I am a nose or an eye.  When we love God with all our heart and we really do love our neighbor as self, which are critical criteria for entering into the Celestial Kingdom then God and everyone else there is looked at as self.  

 

Whatever the "eye" does the whole body knows and feels it, whatever the "nose" does is felt by the whole body as if it is self.  There is no distinction if one loves another as self.  There is a reason why Christ being more like God than the rest of us, could pay for our sins.  It is because He could feel them as if He was there.  That being a characteristic of all those who find their self in the Celestial Kingdom will make it so there is no distinction or propietary experience.  Whatever the Father does the Son does, etc.  Even if they do separate jobs, what is experienced is the whole, what is "self" is the one, not the individual.  There is only one "one".  The Kingdom of God is like the sun, one, the terrestrial is one as well but of lower power and the telestial is many like one star differing from another, remaining individual and separate. 

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(Also, see above)

 

The system you gave as an example of eficiency was dependent on the sharing of information. It could not have been efficient without that key part. If the individual AGV's did their job without knowing what any other was doing then there would be problems.

 

What I am saying is the same, that knowing the job of everyone else but more so than just that, by loving them as self (knowing and sharing of information at the highest of levels) will make the system run even more efficiently.  I would propose to you that the success of that program was not so much the specialization of the AGV's but of the sharing of the information.  Even if they were all equally capable, the sharing of the information would be most important in terms of efficiency.  Working together as "one" was the key to that being successful as opposed to an individual AGV doing only its job and not caring what anyone else was doing. 

 

I know not a lot of people can relate to soccer in this country but that is what I played in High School.  The team was the key.  We could have the best player in the state but if we didn't work as a team we would lose every time.  The individual can't "win" the game if everyone else on the team looses.  The success (glory of the team) is experienced by all, not just the one who scored the goal.  Without the team there is no goal scoring. The team worked best when everyone knew each others job well and would assist when assisting was needed and support when that was needed.  If everyone just worried about their own job alone and didn't understand the job of the other teammates then we would lose.  I think we are saying the same things but the key is in the sharing of information and of being "one" mind and of "one" experience.

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(Also, see above)

 

The system you gave as an example of eficiency was dependent on the sharing of information. It could not have been efficient without that key part. If the individual AGV's did their job without knowing what any other was doing then there would be problems.

 

What I am saying is the same, that knowing the job of everyone else but more so than just that, by loving them as self (knowing and sharing of information at the highest of levels) will make the system run even more efficiently.  I would propose to you that the success of that program was not so much the specialization of the AGV's but of the sharing of the information.  Even if they were all equally capable, the sharing of the information would be most important in terms of efficiency.  Working together as "one" was the key to that being successful as opposed to an individual AGV doing only its job and not caring what anyone else was doing. 

 

I know not a lot of people can relate to soccer in this country but that is what I played in High School.  The team was the key.  We could have the best player in the state but if we didn't work as a team we would lose every time.  The individual can't "win" the game if everyone else on the team looses.  The success (glory of the team) is experienced by all, not just the one who scored the goal.  Without the team there is no goal scoring. The team worked best when everyone knew each others job well and would assist when assisting was needed and support when that was needed.  If everyone just worried about their own job alone and didn't understand the job of the other teammates then we would lose.  I think we are saying the same things but the key is in the sharing of information and of being "one" mind and of "one" experience.

 

I realize what you are trying to say - but AGV's actually do not care about other AGV's nor do they understand what other AGV's are doing.  The one thing they do is what-ever they are told.  They also do not complain if they are working harder than other AGV's, or if they did not get their lunch break.  Whenever they enter an new area they offer to help - if things are being taken care of they just go to the next area and the next and so on until they find the place in most need - then they pitch in with 100% of what they are capable.  When they have a load they take it where it belongs - without chit chatting along the way.  They could sense something in their path and if it does not move they will sound an alarm.  One customer wanted the AGV's to call out that something was in the way.  Since they knew when other AGV's are close - I thought if the customer was going to force me to make AGV's speak out and say - "something is blocking my path, somebody please move it!"   That when AGV's passed close to each other, I would have one AGV say "Hi Jim!" and the other say "Hi Sue".  I thought that would freak out some factory workers.  :D

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I realize what you are trying to say - but AGV's actually do not care about other AGV's nor do they understand what other AGV's are doing.  The one thing they do is what-ever they are told.  They also do not complain if they are working harder than other AGV's, or if they did not get their lunch break.  Whenever they enter an new area they offer to help - if things are being taken care of they just go to the next area and the next and so on until they find the place in most need - then they pitch in with 100% of what they are capable.  When they have a load they take it where it belongs - without chit chatting along the way.  They could sense something in their path and if it does not move they will sound an alarm.  One customer wanted the AGV's to call out that something was in the way.  Since they knew when other AGV's are close - I thought if the customer was going to force me to make AGV's speak out and say - "something is blocking my path, somebody please move it!"   That when AGV's passed close to each other, I would have one AGV say "Hi Jim!" and the other say "Hi Sue".  I thought that would freak out some factory workers.  :D

I didn't say care, I said aware (at least I think I did, if not that is what I meant). By what you are saying about them, they have to be aware.  You said "they offer to help".  How would they know any help is needed if not aware of what the other ones are doing?  How would they know if "things are being taken care of" if not aware?

Of course there has to be "chit chat" along the way to let every other AGV know that things are "being taken care of".  They would have to know when another was close, as you say.  So, yes they are tied into each other in a way that humans could not be without some kind of electronic assistance.   Whereas in the Celestial Kingdom there will be a natural tie in and awareness, called charity. 

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I didn't say care, I said aware (at least I think I did, if not that is what I meant).

 

End of the second paragraph of your post 136

 

 

 

Working together as "one" was the key to that being successful as opposed to an individual AGV doing only its job and not caring what anyone else was doing.

 

By what you are saying about them, they have to be aware.  You said "they offer to help".  How would they know any help is needed if not aware of what the other ones are doing?  How would they know if "things are being taken care of" if not aware?

Of course there has to be "chit chat" along the way to let every other AGV know that things are "being taken care of".  They would have to know when another was close, as you say.  So, yes they are tied into each other in a way that humans could not be without some kind of electronic assistance.   Whereas in the Celestial Kingdom there will be a natural tie in and awareness, called charity.

 

I believe the first step in Charity is awareness - without awareness there can be no charity.

 

You are getting into some subtle design constructs that contribute to AGV artificial SWAM intelligence.  I will attempt to be a brief and descriptive as possible for this thread.   The factory is divided into various production or work areas.  Each area is assigned a priority based on pending or needed work, time waiting for work to be initiated and number of AGV assigned to work in that area.   Note that an AGV with a load on board destined or assigned to another area is not assigned to that area but the destination area.

 

There is an executive function that oversees all the AGV’s.  The AGV’s report any change in state or status to the executive function (such as load picked up or dropped off, movement to new travel zone or any other condition the AGV is capable of sensing.  There are also workstations in the factory in each work area.  Each workstation creates two FIFO (First In First Out) queues of raw material to be delivered and processed material to be removed – the requests are made to the AGV executive function.  The priority of each queue request depends on the priority of material and the length of time of the request.   Each work station also reports it operational status changes.

 

The AGV executive function preforms two operations.  The first is a pseudo extension of each individual AGV’s intelligent or autonomous operations.  The second is that actual executive function that mediates AGV conflicts (such as possible grid lock detection and priorities for use of travel zones and other resources) and gives work assignments.

 

The overall system operated first on AGV requesting work - based on or whenever various state and travel zone changed and second on station need for work (pick up or deposit) or state change.  But the essence of the algorithm and my concept of it being successful are based on my understanding of – “Go and do this commandment then return and report”.  Although I received much credit and honor for this algorithm – it really is not my brainchild but based on my understanding of the creation.

Edited by Traveler

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End of the second paragraph of your post 136

 

 

I believe the first step in Charity is awareness - without awareness there can be no charity.

 

You are getting into some subtle design constructs that contribute to AGV artificial SWAM intelligence.  I will attempt to be a brief and descriptive as possible for this thread.   The factory is divided into various production or work areas.  Each area is assigned a priority based on pending or needed work, time waiting for work to be initiated and number of AGV assigned to work in that area.   Note that an AGV with a load on board destined or assigned to another area is not assigned to that area but the destination area.

 

There is an executive function that oversees all the AGV’s.  The AGV’s report any change in state or status to the executive function (such as load picked up or dropped off, movement to new travel zone or any other condition the AGV is capable of sensing.  There are also workstations in the factory in each work area.  Each workstation creates two FIFO (First In First Out) queues of raw material to be delivered and processed material to be removed – the requests are made to the AGV executive function.  The priority of each queue request depends on the priority of material and the length of time of the request.   Each work station also reports it operational status changes.

 

The AGV executive function preforms two operations.  The first is a pseudo extension of each individual AGV’s intelligent or autonomous operations.  The second is that actual executive function that mediates AGV conflicts (such as possible grid lock detection and priorities for use of travel zones and other resources) and gives work assignments.

 

The overall system operated first on AGV requesting work - based on or whenever various state and travel zone changed and second on station need for work (pick up or deposit) or state change.  But the essence of the algorithm and my concept of it being successful are based on my understanding of – “Go and do this commandment then return and report”.  Although I received much credit and honor for this algorithm – it really is not my brainchild but based on my understanding of the creation.

Thanks for the correction.  What I meant by "not caring" in that phrase had nothing to do with emotions but rather replace that phrase with "irregardless".

 

You are confirming my statement in that your algorithm depends on reports about work needed in different areas and the number of AGVs assigned to a specific area etc.  The efficiency of the AGV is dependent on being assigned properly, in other words some form of executive knowledge of the whole, some awareness of the whole.  If two AGVs were assigned to do the same job because one was not aware of what the other was doing (even if it is through some higher executive function) then it would not be efficient.  If one AGV were to do work without using any kind of intelligence about where the other ones were and what was needed then it wouldn't be efficient.  The "return and report" confirms what I am saying.  What would happen if there was no "return and report"?   Just the "go and do this commandment"? 

 

Even God glorifies in the knowing that something has been completed more than just planning on doing it, He glorifies in the "bringing to pass", meaning accomplishment, knowing that it is done, the "report" of knowing what others have done.  This is the source of glory.  Glory is not an individual accomplishment but in the receiving of what others have done (the reporting).   That is my point about the Celestial Kingdom.

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Thanks for the correction.  What I meant by "not caring" in that phrase had nothing to do with emotions but rather replace that phrase with "irregardless".

 

You are confirming my statement in that your algorithm depends on reports about work needed in different areas and the number of AGVs assigned to a specific area etc.  The efficiency of the AGV is dependent on being assigned properly, in other words some form of executive knowledge of the whole, some awareness of the whole.  If two AGVs were assigned to do the same job because one was not aware of what the other was doing (even if it is through some higher executive function) then it would not be efficient.  If one AGV were to do work without using any kind of intelligence about where the other ones were and what was needed then it wouldn't be efficient.  The "return and report" confirms what I am saying.  What would happen if there was no "return and report"?   Just the "go and do this commandment"? 

 

Even God glorifies in the knowing that something has been completed more than just planning on doing it, He glorifies in the "bringing to pass", meaning accomplishment, knowing that it is done, the "report" of knowing what others have done.  This is the source of glory.  Glory is not an individual accomplishment but in the receiving of what others have done (the reporting).   That is my point about the Celestial Kingdom.

 

Interesting - what do you plan on accomplishing with others when you get to the Celestial Kingdom?

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Interesting - what do you plan on accomplishing with others when you get to the Celestial Kingdom?

Without knowing the details fully, I think I could safely say, God's work.   ... Helping in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

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Without knowing the details fully, I think I could safely say, God's work.   ... Helping in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

 

Hmmmmmmmmmm - there is a saying; "The devil is in the details."   One thing I have learned in my profession - those that do not know the details - do not know what they are doing.

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Hmmmmmmmmmm - there is a saying; "The devil is in the details."   One thing I have learned in my profession - those that do not know the details - do not know what they are doing.

In the future?  ...that is what we were talking about.

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In the future?  ...that is what we were talking about.

 

Just trying to understand your view of being in the Celestial Kingdom - With no opposition because the Father and Son have eliminated all evil options from any possibility of affecting you or anyone else in the Celestial kingdom; what good act could you possibly be involved in doing?   As a side question - how is your view of the Celestial Kingdom any different than Lucifer's plan - which I understand was, at least in part, to eliminate any evil option.

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Just trying to understand your view of being in the Celestial Kingdom - With no opposition because the Father and Son have eliminated all evil options from any possibility of affecting you or anyone else in the Celestial kingdom; what good act could you possibly be involved in doing?   As a side question - how is your view of the Celestial Kingdom any different than Lucifer's plan - which I understand was, at least in part, to eliminate any evil option.

The difference is in how it is done.  Overcoming evil by way of humility and faith in Christ is different than the arrogant self serving way Lucifer proposed. 

What good act could God be doing that He hasn't already achieved? ... He can help others in their path.  He can bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man.  Why could we not be involved in that work?

Acts of self improvement and achievement are limited and limiting, this is the difference and the lesson learned by their difference.  We hope to receive joy, one day, by the endless number of others we can help on their journey. 

 

Mossiah 2; "17 And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.

 18 Behold, ye have called me your king; and if I, whom ye call your king, do labor to serve you, then ought not ye to labor to serve one another?"

 

This is why the greatest commandments to enter the Kingdom of God have to do with empathy which is the characteristic needed to gleen value in someone else' accomplishments.  Lucifer could not grasp the idea that glory could come from someone else achievements, a Savior.  He didn't realize that giving glory to God and Our Savior is the way that it is shared with everyone there. Mossiah 18; " Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—"

 

Note that many of the scriptures that express the greatest amount of joy is not in terms of self improvement but in helping and serving others. 100% joy will come when we are done working on self and have reached a point where we can 100% serve others. D&C 18; "15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

 16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!

 17 Behold, you have my gospel before you, and my rock, and my salvation.

 18 Ask the Father in my name in faith, believing that you shall receive, and you shall have the Holy Ghost, which manifesteth all things which are expedient unto the children of men.

 19 And if you have not faith, hope, and charity, you can do nothing."

 

In the discussion of the greatest joys and how to get it, there is nothing that says it is obtained by personally battling evil.  The greatest joy is in helping others overcome any leanings towards evil, having love for them, charity. Of course there is joy in repentence and improving one self but the eternal happiness that is the core of Eternal Life is based in helping others once we have reached the tree of life.

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The difference is in how it is done.  Overcoming evil by way of humility and faith in Christ is different than the arrogant self serving way Lucifer proposed. 

What good act could God be doing that He hasn't already achieved? ... He can help others in their path.  He can bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man.  Why could we not be involved in that work?....

 

 

Just trying to be clear and understand - are you implying that the struggle with evil is not a temporary external struggle - like being involved in church, physically doing some good things or striving to obtain the Celestial Kingdom or even being a citizen of the Celestial Kingdom - but an internal struggle with self and the importance of self; including the spiritual self?  And that the best way to turn from acts of self is in the act of service of (even sacrifice for) others?  Not just to achieve a purpose for self (becoming a G-d) - like being exalted but as an eternal ongoing struggle that includes an attitude of sacrifice?

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Just trying to be clear and understand - are you implying that the struggle with evil is not a temporary external struggle - like being involved in church, physically doing some good things or striving to obtain the Celestial Kingdom or even being a citizen of the Celestial Kingdom - but an internal struggle with self and the importance of self; including the spiritual self?  And that the best way to turn from acts of self is in the act of service of (even sacrifice for) others?  Not just to achieve a purpose for self (becoming a G-d) - like being exalted but as an eternal ongoing struggle that includes an attitude of sacrifice?

Like Paul states, the weaknesses we face in this life, the evil that we face in this life is so that we learn dependency on the Lord.  Satan could not imagine the idea of depending on someone else, he wanted it all for and of himself so that he would not have to give credit to anyone else.  While we are in this life, like Paul states, we have this struggle with evil, the "thorn in the flesh" so that we don't exalt ourselves above measure - that is exactly what Satan wanted to do.

 

Of course, once we are exalted then there is no reason to be worried about being exalted above measure. There would be no reason to have a thorn in the flesh at that point.

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Like Paul states, the weaknesses we face in this life, the evil that we face in this life is so that we learn dependency on the Lord.  Satan could not imagine the idea of depending on someone else, he wanted it all for and of himself so that he would not have to give credit to anyone else.  While we are in this life, like Paul states, we have this struggle with evil, the "thorn in the flesh" so that we don't exalt ourselves above measure - that is exactly what Satan wanted to do.

 

Of course, once we are exalted then there is no reason to be worried about being exalted above measure. There would be no reason to have a thorn in the flesh at that point.

 

I think you may be overlooking our pre-existence when we lived in an exalted spiritual state 100% void of any physical temptations?  I submit that both the evil and source of evil we face in this life - we have already faced and concurred before

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I think you may be overlooking our pre-existence when we lived in an exalted spiritual state 100% void of any physical temptations?  I submit that both the evil and source of evil we face in this life - we have already faced and concurred before

I can't say that I have been taught that we were exalted before coming here, in the premortal state.  So, I am not sure about your use of the word exalted here.

 

We were talking about the state of people when they are in the Celestial Kingdom having passed both the first and second estate tests and having had received a perfected, resurrected body to never die again.  I think there are clear differences between that state and the one we came from before the world began.

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