Church Needed To Be Restored

[vinny15]

Well Satan's never going to have a physical body, so why would he want us believing that ours are divine, patterned after God's? He'd want us to treat them not as temples, but as toys.

Very right. Satan will always be satan so why would he want us to believe what the lds believe?

Very nice point. Someimes it gets to obvious for people. I was going to say easy, but its not easy its the toughest way of life, but the best.

[prisonchaplain]

CK, you've been very helpful and direct--all in positive ways. Most Christians, and indeed a majority of the world's people, have assumed that existence begins somewhere between conception and birth. We've assumed that creation is indeed "from nothing." With that as a basis, the Nicene Creed and the LDS teachings about the Godhead are equally grand and challenging.

You've come at this with a different understanding. Not an unreasonable one--but one that is innovative, as far as Christian theological history goes. That is, that we were not created, in the literal sense, but that we were transformed--literally into the spirit-children of God. Jesus was then, truly the "firstborn of this creation (i.e. transformation).

To again cite the comment of my chaplain-colleague (a Catholic priest)--the teaching--if nothing else--is beautiful. Many of us wince at the danger of polytheism, but there is no denying the attractiveness of your views.

Personally, I find the Nicene Creed to be a pile of tripe and a good example of how the Gnostics railroaded Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and Christian Orthopraxis. G-d and The M-ssiah are perfectly apprehensible beings, physical, distinct, and passionate and sharing a common mission and interest in the exaltation of humanity. The Nicene Creed was a political document created out political necessity.

I know a lot of people believe this document to be true, but this document has led to a lot of confusion regarding the nature of divinity and I am sorry it exists.

Aaron the Ogre

There is no denying that the Nicene Creed was developed in response to numerous contrary teachings that were gaining headway. And yes, I'm certain Gnosticism was a primary one. 1600 years later, my own fellowship created its Statement of Faith, primarily in response to "the New Issue" (oneness pentecostalism--also known as monarchial modalism--Jesus = the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--not three in one, but one in three).

So, the underlying question is whether or not the creed was the product of church leaders being led by the Spirit to defend the true faith, or whether it was indeed a purely political document.

Xhenli, the postulate, if conceded, would indeed drive the remainder of the argument. So much of non-LDS Christianity is rooted in the Nicene Creed. Recall that Luther's ultimate split, was not so much over teaching, as over corruption. His "faith alone" standard was partly motivated by the reality he saw that if the church had too much of a role in forgiving sins and mediating between God and men, then the temptation of the power my fuel further corruption.

One concern I have though is giving too much credit to Satan. The truths loss might not have been the most essential ones, but rather, the ones God was willing to let be dormant for a season (assuming it is true that precious truths were lost). IMHO, the truths that went dormant were those relating to the workings of the Holy Spirit. :-)

[Guest Yediyd]

Most Christians, and indeed a majority of the world's people, have assumed that existence begins somewhere between conception and birth.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...life dosen't begin at birth OR conception...

...it begins when the kids move out and the dog dies!

..or...in Dr.T's case...the cat. (he has to wait 9 times longer, though)

[Dr T]

LOL. I have NO idea what your talking about Yed.

[Guest Yediyd]

Because you Don't have a cat, right?

That poor cat...

[Jason]

The Nicene Creed was created to combat Arianism, not Gnosticism.

[CrimsonKairos]

Many of us wince at the danger of polytheism, but there is no denying the attractiveness of your views.

I understand the impropriety of worshipping more than one God. But does believing more than one God exists mean you worship them?

I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. Three separate, individual Gods who--together--constitute a God Council or Godhead.

However, I only worship God the Father, in the name of God the Son, by the power of God the Spirit.

I believe that all the Biblical injunctions against "other gods" almost always includes the explanation, "For there is no Savior beside me." To me, that is saying that we aren't to pray to or worship any being except for God the Father, the source of our salvation through Christ His Son.

I don't think there's anything wrong with believing that there are three Gods in the Godhead, as long as we only worship God the Father, He who presides over Jesus, the Spirit and all of us.

Personally, PC, why would holding such a view be difficult for you? Is it because of the Nicene Creed? Christianity's views of God throughout history? Personal objections? Fear of heresy (departing from the "there is only one God" doctrine)? I'm curious, that's all, and I know your beliefs are the result of pondering, prayer and study so I grant them more weight than say, other people I know.

[prisonchaplain]

The Nicene Creed was created to combat Arianism, not Gnosticism.

You are right. Anti-Masonry was created to counter Gnosticism.

[Jason]

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The Nicene Creed was created to combat Arianism, not Gnosticism.

You are right. Anti-Masonry was created to counter Gnosticism.

Ouch. A wee-anti-Mason, eh?

[CrimsonKairos]

Whenever I think of Masons now, I think of that "Sea-lab" cartoon you linked to, Jason.

[Jason]

Well don't talk about it, but I have the Triton hanging on my wall. And yes, I have knockers to match my cans.

[Guest Yediyd]

bet you like mac-n-cheese too, don'tcha?

[Jason]

Nope, the "three Jew bankers" poisoned the world's supply of mac-n-cheese.

[Guest Yediyd]

Just HAD to go there, didn'tcha...Jason?

[CrimsonKairos]

Ah, the Death Star of David...

Y'know, I've been toying with the idea of doing some machinima comedy using an unlikely game like Forza 2 or something. I just love satire and parody.

[prisonchaplain]

.Ouch. A wee-anti-Mason, eh?

Heavy emphasis on the "wee."

[Jason]

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.Ouch. A wee-anti-Mason, eh?

Heavy emphasis on the "wee."

Oh, so you're serious then. So what is it about a fraternal organization that you find offensive?

[Dr T]

Sorry Yed; I missed your post. To answer

Yes, You are CORRECT!

[prisonchaplain]

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.Ouch. A wee-anti-Mason, eh?

Heavy emphasis on the "wee."

Oh, so you're serious then. So what is it about a fraternal organization that you find offensive?

WE are the only fraternal association you'll ever need. Anything else is just sinful competition. (Now, I sound like a cult. ).

[Jason]

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.Ouch. A wee-anti-Mason, eh?

Heavy emphasis on the "wee."

Oh, so you're serious then. So what is it about a fraternal organization that you find offensive?

WE are the only fraternal association you'll ever need. Anything else is just sinful competition. (Now, I sound like a cult. ).

We as in what? The Church? The Pentecostals? Is fraternization outside of the Church sinful for some reason? Is this based on some Biblical interpretation, or just opinion?

[CrimsonKairos]

Only someone who isn't part of the fraternity would ask such a question.

[prisonchaplain]

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.Ouch. A wee-anti-Mason, eh?

Heavy emphasis on the "wee."

Oh, so you're serious then. So what is it about a fraternal organization that you find offensive?

WE are the only fraternal association you'll ever need. Anything else is just sinful competition. (Now, I sound like a cult. ).

We as in what? The Church? The Pentecostals? Is fraternization outside of the Church sinful for some reason? Is this based on some Biblical interpretation, or just opinion?

"We," by definition, includes me. You both have me concerned that my apparently feeble attempt at humor is failing. So, I'll just surrender.

To rehash:

Jason corrected the poster who said that the Council of Nicea was meant to correct Gnostic heresy, by saying, "No that was the heresy of Bishop Arius."

I joked that Anti-Masonry was formed to combat the Gnostic heresy (never mind that it was about 1700 years late).

Jason asked me if I was a wee bit serious, and I said "Heavy emphasis on the 'we'" (i.e. as pposed to the "serious.")

He nevertheless, chose to take me serious, and ask me why? So, I overplayed the joke, saying that all needs could be met within the household of faith.

Now, you ask me which household, who's faith?

I have never had a mild attempt at humor continue to fail so badly. You may all turn your tickets in for a refund, as I'm canceling the show.

[Jason]

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.Ouch. A wee-anti-Mason, eh?

Heavy emphasis on the "wee."

Oh, so you're serious then. So what is it about a fraternal organization that you find offensive?

WE are the only fraternal association you'll ever need. Anything else is just sinful competition. (Now, I sound like a cult. ).

We as in what? The Church? The Pentecostals? Is fraternization outside of the Church sinful for some reason? Is this based on some Biblical interpretation, or just opinion?

"We," by definition, includes me. You both have me concerned that my apparently feeble attempt at humor is failing. So, I'll just surrender.

To rehash:

Jason corrected the poster who said that the Council of Nicea was meant to correct Gnostic heresy, by saying, "No that was the heresy of Bishop Arius."

I joked that Anti-Masonry was formed to combat the Gnostic heresy (never mind that it was about 1700 years late).

Jason asked me if I was a wee bit serious, and I said "Heavy emphasis on the 'we'" (i.e. as pposed to the "serious.")

He nevertheless, chose to take me serious, and ask me why? So, I overplayed the joke, saying that all needs could be met within the household of faith.

Now, you ask me which household, who's faith?

I have never had a mild attempt at humor continue to fail so badly. You may all turn your tickets in for a refund, as I'm canceling the show.

Gotcha. Oh, and I didn't say "Bishop Arius" as he was a Presbyter and never a Bishop. B)

[prisonchaplain]

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.Ouch. A wee-anti-Mason, eh?

Heavy emphasis on the "wee."

Oh, so you're serious then. So what is it about a fraternal organization that you find offensive?

WE are the only fraternal association you'll ever need. Anything else is just sinful competition. (Now, I sound like a cult. ).

We as in what? The Church? The Pentecostals? Is fraternization outside of the Church sinful for some reason? Is this based on some Biblical interpretation, or just opinion?

"We," by definition, includes me. You both have me concerned that my apparently feeble attempt at humor is failing. So, I'll just surrender.

To rehash:

Jason corrected the poster who said that the Council of Nicea was meant to correct Gnostic heresy, by saying, "No that was the heresy of Bishop Arius."

I joked that Anti-Masonry was formed to combat the Gnostic heresy (never mind that it was about 1700 years late).

Jason asked me if I was a wee bit serious, and I said "Heavy emphasis on the 'we'" (i.e. as pposed to the "serious.")

He nevertheless, chose to take me serious, and ask me why? So, I overplayed the joke, saying that all needs could be met within the household of faith.

Now, you ask me which household, who's faith?

I have never had a mild attempt at humor continue to fail so badly. You may all turn your tickets in for a refund, as I'm canceling the show.

Gotcha. Oh, and I didn't say "Bishop Arius" as he was a Presbyter and never a Bishop. B)

I not only surrender. I do so unconditionally, and in abject humility.