The Joys Of Socialized Medicine

[sixpacktr]

Just thought I'd share this...

Listening to Neal Boortz this morning, he brought these facts up:

1) The Canadian Supreme Court struck down a law in Canada in 2005 that made it a CRIME to get private medical care if the free care was available (IOW, gov't approved). Why did they strike it down? Because too many people were dying waiting for care from the "approved" medicine. This, in the 21st century, it is a crime to take care of yourself if nanny gov't will provide the care for you...

2) 20% of colon cancer cases become INCURABLE waiting for treatment in Great Britain while waiting to see the doctor. 20%!!!

Yeah, pls sign me up for Hillary care. I know that the gov't nanny can do sooo much better than private health care can...

Pls pass the gov't teat this way!

[FrankJL]

Shouldn't this be in the "politics / current events" section?

[sixpacktr]

Shouldn't this be in the "politics / current events" section?

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess that the heading "General Discussion" confused me...

[Gabelma]

Actually having experienced healthcare in the UK and US - I would never ever trade the NHS for what you have as old clunky and problem ridden as it is there imo there is no better system yes it needs more money, yes the hospitals have huge waiting lists but at least people are looked after, today when my son cut his finger there was no second thought about taking him to the hospital, there were no financial questions and he was dealt with. Because of the NHS if you opt for private healthcare in the UK what you get is far superior to what I experienced when my Father In Law was dying in UCLA medical centre and ours doesn't cost as much. I would not want just a couple of weeks after my husbands death to have to deal with the question - who is going to pay for the ambulance that took him to hospital. The hospital was as dirty if not more so than any I have dealt with here and the staff the most unpleasent healthcare professionals (with the exception of one or two). My in Laws have really good insurance.

Our maternity care may be bad in places but its also better informed because it doesn't have to worry about making money. I was shocked at the draconian information and care my Sister In Law was receiving. When I had the miscarriage in the UK I was treated badly but I was looked after, the one in the US I was pumped full of drugs and over looked after. Why because they needed to charge more to my insurance company - I could have told the Dr he was being an idiot for checking to see if my blood type had changed over the course of 3 days. I do remember being shocked at my Sister in Law having to weigh up whether to go to the Dr with a bladder infection whilst pregnant and drinking cranberry juice.

The saddest example of the difference for me was my good friend from school in the UK and my husband's best friend in the US both had babies with exactly the same problem due in the same week - my friends baby was operated on whilst still in the womb, my husbands friends insurance didnt cover it she had to wait whilst he found a new job with insurance which did cover it - he accepted a massive pay cut in the end. My friends kid has no problems at all - my husbands friends child still has constant infections.

My husband was adopted in 1978 because his parents medical insurance didn't cover babies born before a certain date (I think 35 weeks), he would have been resusitated but not recived NICU care. My daughter born under the same conditions here received wonderful care and is a happy healthy 4 year old, I cannot imagine what my husbands birth parents must have experienced having a child and having to give that child up.

Even if it isn't perfect I appreciate the intent in my country to look after everyone as best they can. This is even with an illness that the NHS doesn't have the resources to look after but had I been in the US I would not be anywhere near as good a state as I am in the UK. If I have private health insurance it doesn't cost as much as what we paid for my husbands insurance and I would get private room, good TV, great food, pleasent staff the private hospitals feel more like a hotel and very few waiting lists. The Colon Cancer problem I suspect is because of a shortage of cancer specialists in the country more than a funding problem so doesn't matter how wealthy you are you gotta suffer or go to India for treatment. All I can say is go Hilary.

Charley

[pushka]

Charley, thanks for standing up for our dear NHS! I've had to undergo 2 major heart surgeries, as well as other more minor ops, and my daughter underwent major surgery to her leg, with about 1 year's aftercare, physio etc. all for free over here...None of my family complains about having to pay National Insurance contributions when they are working, and when they are unable to work, the contributions are made on their behalf from the Social Security office...

[Gabelma]

Charley, thanks for standing up for our dear NHS! I've had to undergo 2 major heart surgeries, as well as other more minor ops, and my daughter underwent major surgery to her leg, with about 1 year's aftercare, physio etc. all for free over here...None of my family complains about having to pay National Insurance contributions when they are working, and when they are unable to work, the contributions are made on their behalf from the Social Security office...

I was brought up in a family where most of the people could remember the days pre NHS - and I was taught to be very respectful of the welfare state. My familys fortunes have been a roller coaster ride and it is so good to have that safety net when you need it.

Charley

[the Ogre]

I know there are some stories regarding health care overseas that are often positive, but I have yet to receive satisfactory medical attention for myself in Korea or Japan. Their systems are mirrors of Britain’s system and the Japanese like to claim that theirs is the most advanced NHS in the world.

The system in the US is nightmarish for those without medical insurance, but what I have seen is far superior to what I've experienced in Asia.

When I've traveled to London and Edinburgh, I have always counted myself lucky to have never fallen ill or gotten injured. Britain's NHS is the primary reason I might deny University of Nottingham's letter of acceptance.

If I did go, I would worry about my youngest son's continuing medical needs not being met in a calcified, weak, socialized medical system and my studies would suffer.

[Gabelma]

When I've traveled to London and Edinburgh, I have always counted myself lucky to have never fallen ill or gotten injured. Britain's NHS is the primary reason I might deny University of Nottingham's letter of acceptance.

If I did go, I would worry about my youngest son's continuing medical needs not being met in a calcified, weak, socialized medical system and my studies would suffer.

You could always go private being a foreign national you would have to pay anyway or have some kind of private health insurance - you wouldn't be using the NHS except for emergency treatment anyway and that is generally very good - certainly much superior to that I experienced in the US and that is with me having good insurance. And if you fallen in ill in Edinburgh you would have been well taken care of the NHS in Scotland is generally better than the rest of the country as we are not so overpopulated.

It would depend on what your son haas and the area you are in to a point how well he will be looked after - but I will say this the care you will recive in an NHS hospital will be far superior to anything my father in law recieved at UCLA medical centre.

My husband has experienced both and was very right wing American now he ain't so sure he wants to go back - now if we could get more dentists it would be perfect

And I will say if your wife gets pregnant whilst here she would receive much better care even in our worst areas

Charley

[pushka]

<div class='quotemain'>

Charley, thanks for standing up for our dear NHS! I've had to undergo 2 major heart surgeries, as well as other more minor ops, and my daughter underwent major surgery to her leg, with about 1 year's aftercare, physio etc. all for free over here...None of my family complains about having to pay National Insurance contributions when they are working, and when they are unable to work, the contributions are made on their behalf from the Social Security office...

I was brought up in a family where most of the people could remember the days pre NHS - and I was taught to be very respectful of the welfare state. My familys fortunes have been a roller coaster ride and it is so good to have that safety net when you need it.

Charley

Charley, my family remembers the pre-NHS days too, and I started a course in Social Policy a couple of years ago, in which we were taught about the 1st day of the NHS hospitals etc. being opened, queues were phenomenal for the care required, as poor patients had avoided seeking medical attention for a whole host of illnesses because they couldn't afford the services of a doctor or dentist!!

I agree that most of the time, the NHS works well...that has been my experience anyway, with myself and my children having suffered a great deal of illnesses, had to be hospitalised a number of times, the medical care has never been at fault for us.

[sixpacktr]

and I was taught to be very respectful of the welfare state.

Sorry, but that statement goes against every fiber of my being.

I can only imagine the tax burden we in this country will have to shoulder if Billary is elected and Billary care becomes law...

[Palerider]

sorry folks....I still say.....you get what you pay for....I like my health coverage just the way it is here in the U.S.....besides...it gives me something to gripe about once in awhile.....LOL!!!!

[the Ogre]

Sorry, but that statement goes against every fiber of my being.

I can only imagine the tax burden we in this country will have to shoulder if Billary is elected and Billary care becomes law...

Since the US is already a wel-fare state, shouldn't we just embrace it and just go bankrupt? You know, get it over with so we can also get everything for free. Medicine, food, housing, cars, education, guns. Everything.

[Dr T]

No

[Palerider]

Isn't that why we have a Gov't....to take care of everything we are in need of??????........

[Guest Yediyd]

Isn't that why we have a Gov't....to take care of everything we are in need of??????........

Do ya think I could get the government to find me a nice husband?

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'> Isn't that why we have a Gov't....to take care of everything we are in need of??????........

Do ya think I could get the government to find me a nice husband?

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!........we need to call our congressperson(note the political correctness) and ask if thats possible......LOL!!!!

[sixpacktr]

<div class='quotemain'>

Sorry, but that statement goes against every fiber of my being.

I can only imagine the tax burden we in this country will have to shoulder if Billary is elected and Billary care becomes law...

Since the US is already a wel-fare state, shouldn't we just embrace it and just go bankrupt? You know, get it over with so we can also get everything for free. Medicine, food, housing, cars, education, guns. Everything.

Ogre,

I know you are being facetious in stating this, but the truth is that there are far too many in this country that feel exactly that way! Everything should be free! We shouldn't have to worry about anything! Gov't should take care of me because I am a citizen (or, in the case of the "marchin' Mexicans", because I want it!)!

To a lot of people they feel that it should be charged to "big business" thru taxes. They think because they don't pay when they go to the doctor or wherever that it is "free". They are too dumb to realize that business passes any taxes along in the price of their goods. And the libs are all to eager to play that class envy card with the welfare queen and king crowd so that they "get their fair share"!

No offense to our European posters, but I don't want the US to be anything like Europe. There was a reason our ancestors fled that place....Where is a Winston Churchill when you need him??

To quote Neal Boorz: this country is full of dumb masses...

[the Ogre]

I know you are being facetious in stating this, but the truth is that there are far too many in this country that feel exactly that way! Everything should be free! We shouldn't have to worry about anything! Gov't should take care of me because I am a citizen (or, in the case of the "marchin' Mexicans", because I want it!)!

To a lot of people they feel that it should be charged to "big business" thru taxes. They think because they don't pay when they go to the doctor or wherever that it is "free". They are too dumb to realize that business passes any taxes along in the price of their goods. And the libs are all to eager to play that class envy card with the welfare queen and king crowd so that they "get their fair share"!

6pack,

I do remember the entitlement-addiction brawl we had last week and I actually agree with your contention. My only disagreement has to do with the use of certain language (I bolded it above) that the partisans in this discussion like to use.

The lack of a NHS in the US is because of National decision. I think that eventually we are going to have a type of NHS here, but that it will be so botched that we as Americans will be going to Canada for medical treatment instead of the other way around.

I would love it if we were able to abandon a lot of the programs that are misapplied without hurting those that actually need it. The problem with that idea, is that those who suffer entitlement-addiction as opposed to those who need the government assistance are actually more involved in politics than the people who oppose it. A friend at work who hates the idea of a European welfare state here in the US refuses to get involved in politics or get involved in the dialogue surrounding it. He even refuses to vote. This is a big part of why a NHS is going to be put into place. Why did NAFTA get voted in? For much the same reason.

I think the best thing people who oppose an American NHS can do is get involved in the dialogue without being insulting. Many political idealogues like Rush and Hannity are only making the opposition stronger by their own use of bigoted language.

Remember as you get upset, I agree with what you are saying, but I hate name-calling.

Aaron the Ogre

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

I know you are being facetious in stating this, but the truth is that there are far too many in this country that feel exactly that way! Everything should be free! We shouldn't have to worry about anything! Gov't should take care of me because I am a citizen (or, in the case of the "marchin' Mexicans", because I want it!)!

To a lot of people they feel that it should be charged to "big business" thru taxes. They think because they don't pay when they go to the doctor or wherever that it is "free". They are too dumb to realize that business passes any taxes along in the price of their goods. And the libs are all to eager to play that class envy card with the welfare queen and king crowd so that they "get their fair share"!

6pack,

I do remember the entitlement-addiction brawl we had last week and I actually agree with your contention. My only disagreement has to do with the use of certain language (I bolded it above) that the partisans in this discussion like to use.

The lack of a NHS in the US is because of National decision. I think that eventually we are going to have a type of NHS here, but that it will be so botched that we as Americans will be going to Canada for medical treatment instead of the other way around.

I would love it if we were able to abandon a lot of the programs that are misapplied without hurting those that actually need it. The problem with that idea, is that those who suffer entitlement-addiction as opposed to those who need the government assistance are actually more involved in politics than the people who oppose it. A friend at work who hates the idea of a European welfare state here in the US refuses to get involved in politics or get involved in the dialogue surrounding it. He even refuses to vote. This is a big part of why a NHS is going to be put into place. Why did NAFTA get voted in? For much the same reason.

I think the best thing people who oppose an American NHS can do is get involved in the dialogue without being insulting. Many political idealogues like Rush and Hannity are only making the opposition stronger by their own use of bigoted language.

Remember as you get upset, I agree with what you are saying, but I hate name-calling.

Aaron the Ogre Here Here!!! Aaron!!!!!! Well said!!!!!

[Alaskagain]

When I was 2 [a LONG time ago] and before government sponsored medical care, I needed surgery. My parents had no medical insurance, and low income. A doctor donated his services, and the not-for-profit hospital donated the care. They used to do things like that for the poor. [in follow up visits as an adult, I have had to point out the surgery site, and the doctor was so excellent, a qualified professional can barely tell that it was even done.]

Somewhere along the line, in the late 70's and early 80's, the role of a doctor providing services to society changed, and the doctor's office became a retail business. Hospitals became business centers as well. Now, they routinely turn away patients without insurance, although immediate life-saving procedures must be performed without regard to insurance status. A person with no insurance now is charged even more for medical procedures than what the hospital or doctor receives from insurance companies for the same thing. Even when the hospital is registered as a non-profit entity. Doesn't seem right.

I am not sure what factors caused these changes in medical care. The advent of Medicare and Medicaid? The acceleration of high-technology equipment being available in even small facilities (MRI, etc.)? Mega-dollar awards in malpractice cases, mega-dollar premiums for malpractice insurance? Greed?

I just know that many doctors and dentists will not treat a new patient unless there is cash up front or guaranteed pre-certified insurance coverage. Again, Doesn't seem right.

I don't think government medical plans are the answer; in fact, I am very much against them. I don't know that legislation is the answer. What I would like to see is a payment plan being offered to any patient who needs care and lacks funds, for reasonable fees according to the local market, and a shift in the attitude of health professionals [signs seen recently in doctor's offices: "Patients with an outstanding balance for previous visits will not receive additional appointments until the previous balance is paid in full." "Payment is expected in advance for today's visit." etc. ad nauseum.] I don't expect a return to the days of giving the family doctor fresh chickens in return for his house call. I just want better than what we have.

[FrankJL]

90% ride in the wagon while 10% pull it.

[Palerider]

If we had a NHS in this country....how would it work.....who would pay the Doctors salary???....if the Gov't does...the Doctors won't be making as much as they do right now....so now I am assuming if this happens we will have Doctors and good Doctors at that leaving the field and some potentially good ones not getting into the field but going into other areas of profession.....so now we have a NHS system but I think we suffer in the quality of medicine....what do I know.....just my opinion and what I picked up from being in Europe myself.

[the Ogre]

I am not sure what factors caused these changes in medical care. The advent of Medicare and Medicaid? The acceleration of high-technology equipment being available in even small facilities (MRI, etc.)? Mega-dollar awards in malpractice cases, mega-dollar premiums for malpractice insurance? Greed?

Lawyers and insurance companies.

My brother was an RN for nearly ten years when he decided he hated doctors and that most were crooks. He and his wife discussed it and decided to return to school to earn a BA in political science and then a JD. He lives in Oklahoma working for HMOs hunting down member doctors who rip-off the system or who do more harm than good.

He knows lawyers make a lot of money sueing deep-pockets and many doctors have them. The insurance companies then have lobbied for laws that protect them from law-suits and allow them to exclude "problem customers;" the people who don't have insurance and thus have not signed non-litigation agreements.

This has formed cycle of tit-for-tats to such a degree that now not only do hospitals refuse to help people, but they aer often afraid to.

[sixpacktr]

Ogre,

Understand what you are saying, but we have hashed the "name calling" this over and over, to the point where CK was nearly ready to tear his hair out.

As for Rush and Hannity, I don't agree with you that they use "bigoted language". I have listened to Rush for about 17 years, off and on (more to do with work schedules than anything else), Hannity in Atlanta, and Neal Boortz for about 7 years. I don't buy into the "bigoted language" argument. The reason they are so popular? Because hard working people are sick and tired of being called the "greedy rich" by a bunch of people that know nothing more than entitlements, and THAT is our gov't's fault.

I know that there are legitimate cases, and I know that Yed and Emma are part of those cases, but the fact remains that far too many are willing to let me support them because I'm "rich". And the libs are far to willing to help me part with my money to support these people (whom I call welfare queens and kings, because that is how they act: my money is theirs just because, because it ain't fair that I have the money I do...again, it is an attitude more than anything) so that they can be reelected and make more money confiscating laws to help me be more compassionate.

As for your friend, unless they are aware of what is going on, they shouldn't vote. If more people paid attention instead of just voting for who wears boxers or briefs, ala Drop Trou Bill, or who will give them more money, we'd not be in the mess we are. Most people that vote don't have friggin' clue what the real issues are, and so they shouldn't vote. And as I said in a previous post, it was originally set up that only the landowners voted, because they had a real interest in making the gov't work. Now we have people that are only looking for the latest handout out of my pocket, and wanting nanny gov't to take care of them...

[Guest Yediyd]

Ogre,

Understand what you are saying, but we have hashed the "name calling" this over and over, to the point where CK was nearly ready to tear his hair out.

As for Rush and Hannity, I don't agree with you that they use "bigoted language". I have listened to Rush for about 17 years, off and on (more to do with work schedules than anything else), Hannity in Atlanta, and Neal Boortz for about 7 years. I don't buy into the "bigoted language" argument. The reason they are so popular? Because hard working people are sick and tired of being called the "greedy rich" by a bunch of people that know nothing more than entitlements, and THAT is our gov't's fault.

I know that there are legitimate cases, and I know that Yed and Emma are part of those cases, but the fact remains that far too many are willing to let me support them because I'm "rich". And the libs are far to willing to help me part with my money to support these people (whom I call welfare queens and kings, because that is how they act: my money is theirs just because, because it ain't fair that I have the money I do...again, it is an attitude more than anything) so that they can be reelected and make more money confiscating laws to help me be more compassionate.

As for your friend, unless they are aware of what is going on, they shouldn't vote. If more people paid attention instead of just voting for who wears boxers or briefs, ala Drop Trou Bill, or who will give them more money, we'd not be in the mess we are. Most people that vote don't have friggin' clue what the real issues are, and so they shouldn't vote. And as I said in a previous post, it was originally set up that only the landowners voted, because they had a real interest in making the gov't work. Now we have people that are only looking for the latest handout out of my pocket, and wanting nanny gov't to take care of them...

I understand where you are comming from, Six...You EARNED your money and those that are lazy don't deserve it...what does Proverbs say? He who doesn't work shouldn't eat....or something like that....I get dissability because I WORKED and paid into the system, now that I am dissabled...I am getting back the money that I paid in...My SSDI is on a scale bases...based on the amount of hours I worked...

And I agree with you about this entitlement issue...come to NY if you want to see Liberalism at it's finest!!!

BTW...can I borrow 20$, Six?