Morality, Floods And Genocide

[Snow]

Noah's flood supposed happened in about 2300 BC. The world population was something like 20,000,000. (US Census Bureau - Historical Estimates). Using USA percentages as a model that roughly equates to the following number of children:

age 0-5 years = 1,350,000

age 5-10 years =1,400,000

age 11-15 years=1,400,000

The story of the flood is that the people had become so wicked that mass annihilation was in order. For the sake of argument, lets assume that the adults were truly wicked and deserving of death - not just some or most, but all of them. Maybe they were gamblers or smokers or murderers. Maybe they were arsonists or slept with their girl friends before marriage - whatever, they had done something that warranted death.

Let's also include in the guilty the 11 - 15 year olds. Maybe they were into masturbation or not doing their homework of stealing goats or something - something that warranted death, like calling old men "baldy."

That leaves us with something approaching 3 million little kids - infants, toddlers and all.

Jump forward to today. What if someone killed 3 million children? What if someone today did what the Bible claims that God did? Is there a single person on the face of the civilized earth that wouldn't be appalled and devastated by such an atrocity?

No - of course not. Any person or power that did such a thing would be the world's biggest fiend, along with Hilter, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc.

Certainly civilized countries go to war and innocent men, women and children are killed and very unfortunately so, but civilized countries don't set out to kills innocents. Weapons are clumsy, mistakes made. God on the other hand could have choosen who to kill and who not to kill. If the argument is that since God was killing the parents, the children were better off dead because there was no one to take care of them, then God could have arranged for someone to take care of them - he's God after all. Beside, think through it - what if a killer argued, look, I'm killing the children because I am doing them a favor since their mom and dad will be dead to. Is that just? Will the judge lighten the sentence because the killer had the decency to also kill the baby?

I expect that someone will answer that God is good and we can't understand why and how he acts - which of course is no answer at all.

How is the Bible account of the flood moral or just, let alone literally accurate and true?

[CrimsonKairos]

Well according to the Bible literally everyone had become wicked. So if that was true, and only eight people were willing to obey God...kinda' need to wipe the slate clean, no?

And also, He's good and so we can't understand why or how He does everything. (thought you'd enjoy that, Snow)

[Pelagius]

Snow. Your demograhic projections are interesting, but I think you missed a few important points behind the story. If the principle applied then as stated later in The BOM, destruction comes when the CHILDREN of the land are ripe in iniquity. Moreover, the righteous were being converted and translated --removed from the earth to the City of Enoch -- for at least 120 years during Noah's ministry.

When Enoch saw these events in vision (still future for him, because Noah was his grandson or great grandson, can't remember for sure which), he asked the Lord why. The Lord explained that the generation being destroyed had forsworn themselves with oaths, secret combinations, the kind that brought total annihilation to the Jaredite and Nephite civilizations.

The worst kinds of wickedness had become institutionalized until there was no turning back. The BOM of explains that the purpose of these oaths was to enable the participants to more easily commit murders, whoredoms, and all manner of evil while avoiding accountability. This kind of social institution had inundated the world and the righteous were physically separating themselves to the City of Enoch. After the entire City had been removed from the earth before the flood, so were the new converts.

My point is, it was to SAVE the children that the Lord did what he did. Do you think the pre-mortal hosts, not yet born, relished the thought of coming down into that cesspool of humanity? Remember, Enoch heard the Heavens weep in contemplation of this terrible destruction. But the Lord had to do it because it was the necessary (and pre-warned) consequence to the breaking of eternal law. This kind of wickedness always brings destruction. He had to do it in order to be just (punish the wicked) while also being merciful to the younger children who had not yet entered into the sins of their own fathers. By ending the world, he was saving them and the souls of those still contemplating their earth life while watching from the heavens.

Whatever the Lord does is by definition good. He makes the rules. He commanded us not to murder. But that does not in any way limit his rightful control over the lives and deaths of his children.

Death is not evil -- unless a man murders. Death is but the end of life, the end of time. Dying young means less time here, but "more time" over there, which for the good is not bad. I don't see any problem with the flood at all, not in terms of mercy, justice, or morality.

That leaves us with something approaching 3 million little kids - infants, toddlers and all.

Don't you think there would be less children, given the depravity of the people? I know the Bible mentions they were still marrying and giving in marriage when the flood came upon them. But Enoch's account definitely adds some color to the picture by describing the depths of their wickedness. Even in todays world, which I think is not yet as depraved (even in Europe) the Europeans are breeding (or rather lack of breeding) themselves out of existence.

I don't think we can really project based on US census statistics. Just a minor point I guess, since it doesn't really address the question of morality. So what if it was just 100,000 chillins rather than 3 million?

[Dr T]

I guess the question would have to answer "Can God be immoral and unjust?" Not immoral in our eyes but actually immoral and unjust. I don't think a perfectly good being could be. There are some apparently immoral characterizations that I don't understand. Isaac being told to sacrifice his son for example but does that make God immoral? I don't think so. What about telling people to kill whole cities, (men, woman, and children)? Again, I guess if morality comes from God, then any action He takes must be "the right action." I've really struggled with that concept and do not fully understand and cannot yet verbalize a good argument for it, but I'm thinking about it.

[Snow]

Well according to the Bible literally everyone had become wicked. So if that was true, and only eight people were willing to obey God...kinda' need to wipe the slate clean, no?

And also, He's good and so we can't understand why or how He does everything. (thought you'd enjoy that, Snow)

I'm talking about the kiddies, the toddlers, the infants. How wicked could the babies be? They didn't sleep through the night? They wet their diapers?

I guess the question would have to answer "Can God be immoral and unjust?" Not immoral in our eyes but actually immoral and unjust. I don't think a perfectly good being could be. There are some apparently immoral characterizations that I don't understand. Isaac being told to sacrifice his son for example but does that make God immoral? I don't think so. What about telling people to kill whole cities, (men, woman, and children)? Again, I guess if morality comes from God, then any action He takes must be "the right action." I've really struggled with that concept and do not fully understand and cannot yet verbalize a good argument for it, but I'm thinking about it.

If someone tried to murder their son today with a big knife or if someone else tried to convince another to murder his son with a big knife we certainly would think that man immoral... but you are missing the point. It's not that God, who is perfect, that is immoral. How do you reconcile God as described in the Bible with what we believe about a good and just god?

[Snow]

My point is, it was to SAVE the children that the Lord did what he did. Do you think the pre-mortal hosts, not yet born, relished the thought of coming down into that cesspool of humanity? Remember, Enoch heard the Heavens weep in contemplation of this terrible destruction. But the Lord had to do it because it was the necessary (and pre-warned) consequence to the breaking of eternal law.

God killed the kids by drowning them to death for their own good?

Don't you think a good and moral god could come with a better solution? -like not drowning them and finding them other parents? Or not sending them to mortality to live with wicked parents?

Death is not evil -- unless a man murders. Death is but the end of life, the end of time. Dying young means less time here, but "more time" over there, which for the good is not bad. I don't see any problem with the flood at all, not in terms of mercy, justice, or morality.

Yet anyone who committed such an atrocity today would be considered the most evil man on earth but when God, as described in the Bible, does it, it's all good???

I don't think we can really project based on US census statistics. Just a minor point I guess, since it doesn't really address the question of morality. So what if it was just 100,000 chillins rather than 3 million?

Yes - the birth rate in the US is quite low. It would likely have been higher in the time of Noah and hence more children but for the sake of argument, let's say God drowned only 2 million kids to death because some other people were wicked instead of 3 million.

How does that change anything?

[Gabelma]

I just think when viewing Gods actions we need to remember we are mortal he isn't. To us when someone dies we can have faith that it isn't the end but we can't see it - if as we believe as LDS the spirit is immediatly resurrected we don't really die it isn't an end.

For me when we view things like that its like watching one of those 3D films without the special glasses

Charley

[Brother Dorsey]

Hmmmm Snow....interesting thoughts....however, you are thinking "in the world"!

Remember our lives here in the world are but a millisecond in the grand eternity clock..... plus who was it who said that if the veil was completely lifted and we could see paradise a man would hardly be able to stop from killing himself to get there.

With that note however I should let you know also that I do not take the "story" of Noah and the flood as literal but more as parable as a way to show the power of the Almighty and scare the unrighteous. The Lord taught in parables in the NT, why not teach in parables in the OT, after all He was the God of the OT correct?

[Dror]

Snow's questions could be applied to other scripture stories, too. For example, would a good and just god really command the Israelites to slaughter every man, woman, and child in Canaan, or is there more going on here than meets the eye? Might the Israelites have committed genocide for their own reasons (they were hardly righteous people much of the time, after all!) and then claimed that God told them to do it, in order to justify their actions? You know, the "the victors write the histories" idea. Likewise, is it possible that the Flood was simply a natural event, so terrible that people had a psychological need for an explanation, and so they made up a story that God did it in order to punish them for their sins? People really do this sort of thing (witness what some religious leaders were saying after Hurricane Katrina).

Boy, am I going to get in trouble for this one!!

Dror

[Gabelma]

Snow's questions could be applied to other scripture stories, too. For example, would a good and just god really command the Israelites to slaughter every man, woman, and child in Canaan, or is there more going on here than meets the eye? Might the Israelites have committed genocide for their own reasons (they were hardly righteous people much of the time, after all!) and then claimed that God told them to do it, in order to justify their actions? You know, the "the victors write the histories" idea. Likewise, is it possible that the Flood was simply a natural event, so terrible that people had a psychological need for an explanation, and so they made up a story that God did it in order to punish them for their sins? People really do this sort of thing (witness what some religious leaders were saying after Hurricane Katrina).

Boy, am I going to get in trouble for this one!!

Dror

I know what you mean though -its like when people comment about Joseph Smith's behaviour I get in trouble for pointing out things the patriachs did - like Abraham abandoned a wife and child, etc

Charley

[Brother Dorsey]

Boy, am I going to get in trouble for this one!!

Dror

That's it....to your room! NOW!

[Dror]

That's it....to your room! NOW!

Does that mean I can leave work early? COOL!!

Thanks, Brother D!

[Guest Yediyd]

Why do I have a feeling that I am going to be sorry I responded to this?

Anyway...here goes...I always had a problem with the children of Korah in the wilderness who were swallowd up because of Korah's sin...but then it accurred to me that G-d took them because they were innocent and would end up just as wicked as their father if allowd to be raised by him. They went streight to Celestiel Heaven....maybe they were valient spirits who CHOSE to have a short mortal existance...who knows? but I DO KNOW that G-d is JUST and he loves ALL his children, even the bad ones.

Why did he drop the guy who tried to steady the Ark of the covenent, in the wilderness? Why did he allow so many children to die in the BoM during the earthquakes that resulted from the death of Christ?

Only G-d knows why he does the things he does, I am in no possition to second guess him.

Yediyd

[Dror]

Why do I have a feeling that I am going to be sorry I responded to this?

Anyway...here goes...I always had a problem with the children of Korah in the wilderness who were swallowd up because of Korah's sin...but then it accurred to me that G-d took them because they were innocent and would end up just as wicked as their father if allowd to be raised by him. They went streight to Celestiel Heaven....maybe they were valient spirits who CHOSE to have a short mortal existance...who knows? but I DO KNOW that G-d is JUST and he loves ALL his children, even the bad ones.

Why did he drop the guy who tried to steady the Ark of the covenent, in the wilderness? Why did he allow so many children to die in the BoM during the earthquakes that resulted from the death of Christ?

Only G-d knows why he does the things he does, I am in no possition to second guess him.

Yediyd

Yediyd,

I wonder if in many cases it's less a question of what God does (actively) than of what He allows to happen (passively). IMO, most of the scary and tragic events in this world are either natural (like hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.) or caused by humans, whether by accident or evil deeds. Of course, that still leaves the question: Why does God allow bad things to happen--why doesn't He intervene? The answers to that question are probably not as simple as we'd like them to be, but I do believe God will somehow eventually turn these things to our good. I'm sure you're right that the little ones go straight to the Celestial Kingdom. :)

Dror

[Dr T]

I don't think I missed the point Snow. I think the question I added to yours of "Can God be immoral?" is the real question. THe actions appear, when applied to a mere man, immoral and thus the conflict. If God is perfect and always just, then if we claim he is not because of the Biblical accounts, then something has to give. Either He IS unjust or there is a justifiable reason for those actions.

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

Why do I have a feeling that I am going to be sorry I responded to this?

Anyway...here goes...I always had a problem with the children of Korah in the wilderness who were swallowd up because of Korah's sin...but then it accurred to me that G-d took them because they were innocent and would end up just as wicked as their father if allowd to be raised by him. They went streight to Celestiel Heaven....maybe they were valient spirits who CHOSE to have a short mortal existance...who knows? but I DO KNOW that G-d is JUST and he loves ALL his children, even the bad ones.

Why did he drop the guy who tried to steady the Ark of the covenent, in the wilderness? Why did he allow so many children to die in the BoM during the earthquakes that resulted from the death of Christ?

Only G-d knows why he does the things he does, I am in no possition to second guess him.

Yediyd

Yediyd,

I wonder if in many cases it's less a question of what God does (actively) than of what He allows to happen (passively). IMO, most of the scary and tragic events in this world are either natural (like hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.) or caused by humans, whether by accident or evil deeds. Of course, that still leaves the question: Why does God allow bad things to happen--why doesn't He intervene? The answers to that question are probably not as simple as we'd like them to be, but I do believe God will somehow eventually turn these things to our good. I'm sure you're right that the little ones go straight to the Celestial Kingdom. :)

Dror Dror, I believe that G-d allows bad things to happen for two reasons: 1, for our progression and learning,and 2, because if he intervined, he would be limmiting our free agency, Alot of bad things happen as a direct result of man's choices, not natural disasters, but as you said...G-d works things out for good and we don't see the whole picture as G-d does. As Paul said in 1st Cor. chap. 13...now we see through a glass darkly (dark glasses) but then face to face...It will all come into focus in the next world.

My comment to Snow was that I am in no possition to second guess the G-d of this universe.

Yed.

I don't think I missed the point Snow. I think the question I added to yours of "Can God be immoral?" is the real question. THe actions appear, when applied to a mere man, immoral and thus the conflict. If God is perfect and always just, then if we claim he is not because of the Biblical accounts, then something has to give. Either He IS unjust or there is a justifiable reason for those actions.

Thank you Mr. cat man...my sentiments exactly!!!

[Dror]

I don't think I missed the point Snow. I think the question I added to yours of "Can God be immoral?" is the real question. THe actions appear, when applied to a mere man, immoral and thus the conflict. If God is perfect and always just, then if we claim he is not because of the Biblical accounts, then something has to give. Either He IS unjust or there is a justifiable reason for those actions.

Another possibility is that the fallible humans who wrote the Bible did not always accurately represent things. Why is it that we LDS always hold that the Bible is not absolutely infallible, and yet we never point out specific instances where it isn't quite right? Seems to me that some people might find the idea of God condoning mass slaughter to be highly questionable--this might be one of those places where the Bible is not right.

Ok, maybe I should go to my room now!

Dror

[Snow]

Hmmmm Snow....interesting thoughts....however, you are thinking "in the world"!

Remember our lives here in the world are but a millisecond in the grand eternity clock..... plus who was it who said that if the veil was completely lifted and we could see paradise a man would hardly be able to stop from killing himself to get there.

So killing babied because other people sin is okay because eternity is a long time and heaven is a nice place?

With that note however I should let you know also that I do not take the "story" of Noah and the flood as literal but more as parable as a way to show the power of the Almighty and scare the unrighteous. The Lord taught in parables in the NT, why not teach in parables in the OT, after all He was the God of the OT correct?

Bingo - an intelligent answer. Well done and thank you.

Why do I have a feeling that I am going to be sorry I responded to this?

Anyway...here goes...I always had a problem with the children of Korah in the wilderness who were swallowd up because of Korah's sin...but then it accurred to me that G-d took them because they were innocent and would end up just as wicked as their father if allowd to be raised by him. They went streight to Celestiel Heaven....maybe they were valient spirits who CHOSE to have a short mortal existance...who knows? but I DO KNOW that G-d is JUST and he loves ALL his children, even the bad ones.

Are you saying that God killed the babies because he loved them and if he hadn't been killed they would have been sinners... exactly as he knew they would be since he placed them into a situation where they would grow up to be sinners, not being able to exercise free agency so in return for taking away their free agency to sin or do right, God rewarded them with the Celestial Kingdom?

... doesn't match the Plan of Salvation very well - does it.

Why did he drop the guy who tried to steady the Ark of the covenent, in the wilderness? Why did he allow so many children to die in the BoM during the earthquakes that resulted from the death of Christ?

Only G-d knows why he does the things he does, I am in no possition to second guess him.

Yediyd

No one is second guessing God. I'm examing what someone wrote about God.

[Dr T]

Dror,

I do not have all the answers. When I talk about these things though, I'm reminded that God is supreme and I'm not. He is not just a better version of me but an all together different being, GOD. He created all. I'm constantly reminded that we are finite and He is infinite. That only warrants awe and worship.

[Snow]

I don't think I missed the point Snow. I think the question I added to yours of "Can God be immoral?" is the real question. THe actions appear, when applied to a mere man, immoral and thus the conflict. If God is perfect and always just, then if we claim he is not because of the Biblical accounts, then something has to give. Either He IS unjust or there is a justifiable reason for those actions.

The God we worship is just and moral because that is the kind of God we believe in. Yes, a supernatural being could be immoral but we just don't believe that.

I agree that God is just and that his actions are justifiable but the story as described in the bible is not justifiable.

[Dr T]

On the surface they don't. But if from the perspective of our station, maybe it does. He being the creator, we the lowly creation, not worthy of existence, and he being all powerful and supreme, maybe our lives are only a gift from him and when and how he wanted to pull the plug, then he is justified in how it is done. I'm just talking and need to think on that but we might have a point of view (POV) problem. Maybe we try and make God just like man.

[BenRaines]

As I think Brother Dorsey mentioned earlier too great a value is placed on attempting to preserve this mortal life. Guess what people no one gets out of here alive. Ok I know the scriptures speak of a very few but you know what I mean.

It wasn't until I was older that I came to realize this. The challenge for most is this is the true test of ones faith in believing that there is life after this mortal life or if at death this is the end.

If one believes in a life with God after this life then why would we delay or agonize over those who have gone young or old?

Some of my thoughts. I will not rush the day of leaving mortality but it is not something I fear either.

Ben Raines

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

I don't think I missed the point Snow. I think the question I added to yours of "Can God be immoral?" is the real question. THe actions appear, when applied to a mere man, immoral and thus the conflict. If God is perfect and always just, then if we claim he is not because of the Biblical accounts, then something has to give. Either He IS unjust or there is a justifiable reason for those actions.

Another possibility is that the fallible humans who wrote the Bible did not always accurately represent things. Why is it that we LDS always hold that the Bible is not absolutely infallible, and yet we never point out specific instances where it isn't quite right? Seems to me that some people might find the idea of God condoning mass slaughter to be highly questionable--this might be one of those places where the Bible is not right.

Ok, maybe I should go to my room now!

Dror Come on out of your room, Dror...I have only been LDS for 3 yrs and I have not nor will I ever lose my original devotion to the Bible...I see it as incomplete, but not flawed...

<div class='quotemain'>

Hmmmm Snow....interesting thoughts....however, you are thinking "in the world"!

Remember our lives here in the world are but a millisecond in the grand eternity clock..... plus who was it who said that if the veil was completely lifted and we could see paradise a man would hardly be able to stop from killing himself to get there.

So killing babied because other people sin is okay because eternity is a long time and heaven is a nice place?

With that note however I should let you know also that I do not take the "story" of Noah and the flood as literal but more as parable as a way to show the power of the Almighty and scare the unrighteous. The Lord taught in parables in the NT, why not teach in parables in the OT, after all He was the God of the OT correct?

Bingo - an intelligent answer. Well done and thank you.

Why do I have a feeling that I am going to be sorry I responded to this?

Anyway...here goes...I always had a problem with the children of Korah in the wilderness who were swallowd up because of Korah's sin...but then it accurred to me that G-d took them because they were innocent and would end up just as wicked as their father if allowd to be raised by him. They went streight to Celestiel Heaven....maybe they were valient spirits who CHOSE to have a short mortal existance...who knows? but I DO KNOW that G-d is JUST and he loves ALL his children, even the bad ones.

Are you saying that God killed the babies because he loved them and if he hadn't been killed they would have been sinners... exactly as he knew they would be since he placed them into a situation where they would grow up to be sinners, not being able to exercise free agency so in return for taking away their free agency to sin or do right, God rewarded them with the Celestial Kingdom?

... doesn't match the Plan of Salvation very well - does it.

Why did he drop the guy who tried to steady the Ark of the covenent, in the wilderness? Why did he allow so many children to die in the BoM during the earthquakes that resulted from the death of Christ?

Only G-d knows why he does the things he does, I am in no possition to second guess him.

Yediyd

No one is second guessing God. I'm examing what someone wrote about God.

Why is it that only the people who agree with you have inteligent answers? My answer is not in agreement with you, but is valid just the same...and somehow...I knew you would not have a friendly response to me...what is it, Snow? why must you be so contrary? I don't understand how Emma gets banned for being too argumentative and you are allowed to continue to make people feel unwelcome and stupid every time they dissagree with you.

As I think Brother Dorsey mentioned earlier too great a value is placed on attempting to preserve this mortal life. Guess what people no one gets out of here alive. Ok I know the scriptures speak of a very few but you know what I mean.

It wasn't until I was older that I came to realize this. The challenge for most is this is the true test of ones faith in believing that there is life after this mortal life or if at death this is the end.

If one believes in a life with God after this life then why would we delay or agonize over those who have gone young or old?

Some of my thoughts. I will not rush the day of leaving mortality but it is not something I fear either.

Ben Raines

Very good answer, Ben, one that I agree with....and I'm SURE Snow will not have a snide remark for you! I'm not sure what I did to get out of his graces, I try to be friendly with everyone up here, but I don't apprecieate being talked down to or treated like my post are invalid because they don't happen to agree with someone. I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am at a quandery as to why some get banned and others are ignored when they are mean in their responses to others.

[Gabelma]

As I think Brother Dorsey mentioned earlier too great a value is placed on attempting to preserve this mortal life. Guess what people no one gets out of here alive. Ok I know the scriptures speak of a very few but you know what I mean.

It wasn't until I was older that I came to realize this. The challenge for most is this is the true test of ones faith in believing that there is life after this mortal life or if at death this is the end.

If one believes in a life with God after this life then why would we delay or agonize over those who have gone young or old?

Some of my thoughts. I will not rush the day of leaving mortality but it is not something I fear either.

Ben Raines

I agree Ben

One thing my life has taughtt me is there are worse things than death - when Cardinal Basil Hume (head of RC Church in England) announced to his best friend he was dying - his friend said 'congratulations, lucky you' I thought that was fantastic his attitude was that we are here in order to return home to God.

When we die or Heavenly Father allows us to go he welcoming us further along the path back to him, if we were to kill someone we are ending the only life that even those of us with Faith really understand

Charley

[TheWatcher]

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to add my two cents, or share what I have learned about the flood and Abraham being told to sacrifice his son.

RE: the flood and the innocent being killed...we don't know how wicked the world must have been, but if there was no hope for any child born during that era to have even a CHANCE of a decent life, I can only imagine how wicked people were, especially since, as wicked as the world is now, we are still here!

There must have been incredible sexual immorality...perhaps they initiated young children into sexual activity, maybe it was a part of their "culture"? No doubt homosexual activity was rampant, even encouraged. That has happened to us- there are even some groups out there who are using their influence to try and make sexual activity with children acceptable (NAMBLA and others).

We know that history has told us that even great societies begin their downfall (i.e. the Roman Empire, etc,) due to moral decay...

Snow, do you have children? If so, are they old enough to make really bad choices due to the evil influences they choose to listen to? They were born innocent...What if they had NO CHANCE of growing up to be a half-way decent person because their environment was that wicked?? What sort of miserable life would that be? Remember too, your grandchildren would have no chance at real happiness or joy either, their children, and so on...

As a parent, I would rather my innocent baby went back to his or her Maker then perpetuate evilness in the world. It wouldn't be a punishment but a mercy to their little souls, saving them from a horrible life. We just don't know what their life was like back then, but it must have been very bad.

It is not God's fault that people yield to the temptations of Satan and his followers. It is DESPITE his influence. Noah's people had 20 years (as he built the Ark) to listen to his begging and pleading with them to stop their evil practices and wicked lifestyles...no doubt he appealed to them to listen for their children's sake, to avoid such a horrible calamity of babies and children being drown in the flood.

God loved them..he gave them a prophet...Who is responsible for their refusal to obey their prophet thus bringing on their own and their children's destruction?? They were.

As far as Abraham being told to sacrifice his son, I don't understand why this is so widely seen as cruel and wrong, once you really study the facts we have been given. The main reason, I believe, that this was asked of him is so that when we are struggling with our lives and having trouble following the Lord's commandments, we can always look to the example of Abraham and how obedient he was. Some sources even say that his son Isaac knew what his father was doing, and was himself obedient to the Lord's command that he be sacrificed, willingly climbing the mountain with his father and gathering the wood for the fire!

The Lord had no intention of making Abraham go through with it, as we all know. He was giving us the ultimate example of obedience. This story has helped me to do what is required of me, no matter how difficult. (I would liken it to the story of Job's sufferings..the absolute worst case scenarios that make our problems seem more manageable by comparison.)

In the end Snow, those children who died in the flood were received into a state of perputual joy with their Heavenly Parents. We are taught that once we pass over we do not concern ourselves with the things of the world anymore...they have been saved without having to become spotted by the world, they are happy forever and that is what is really important in the end, isn't it?