What Did Jesus Teach

[Traveler]

I know this is an old topic but I thought I would add a new twist. Rather that quote many scriptures on this subject - lets take an new look. Lets debate this topic using only direct quotes from Jesus when he taught his gospel. I would think that his teachings would take president over all others in regards to this most important topic.

So rather than argue this subject from the point of view of what some think Paul was trying to teach or from what Isaiah was trying to teach - let us be "Christians" and consider what Jesus Christ said himself.

I will begin with Matt chapter 5: verse 20 where Jesus taught that "righteousness" was necessary in order for someone to qualify for the kingdom of heaven. He then specifically indicates what kind of righteousness is needed. Is there any one claiming to be a Christian that has a different point of view (different from Jesus) on this subject?

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Since Jesus' primary teaching mission was amongst the Jews, whom He was trying to restore to proper worship of the Heavenly Father, perhaps his words would not be the most relevent ot a discussion of when one can be considered converted and heaven-bound? On the other hand, Paul, who's mission was largely to non-Jews, whom he sought to convert to the worship of the Heavenly Father, through the saving work of the Messiah, might indeed offer more directly related teachings.

To offer up a cliche that I made up: I'm not a "New Testament Christian," I'm a Bible Christians. I disagree with the Jefferson Bible, and with efforts to elevate some Scriptures at the expense of others.

Ironically, when Paul criticized the factions of the Corinthian church, one of those was a "Jesus faction."

Put another way: Paul and Jesus do not contradict each other, and one should consider the whole counsel of the word of God, not bits and pieces--even if those choice passages are red-lettered.

[Traveler]

Since Jesus' primary teaching mission was amongst the Jews, whom He was trying to restore to proper worship of the Heavenly Father, perhaps his words would not be the most relevent ot a discussion of when one can be considered converted and heaven-bound? On the other hand, Paul, who's mission was largely to non-Jews, whom he sought to convert to the worship of the Heavenly Father, through the saving work of the Messiah, might indeed offer more directly related teachings.

To offer up a cliche that I made up: I'm not a "New Testament Christian," I'm a Bible Christians. I disagree with the Jefferson Bible, and with efforts to elevate some Scriptures at the expense of others.

Ironically, when Paul criticized the factions of the Corinthian church, one of those was a "Jesus faction."

Put another way: Paul and Jesus do not contradict each other, and one should consider the whole counsel of the word of God, not bits and pieces--even if those choice passages are red-lettered.

As usual - Thank you for your response.

I find it most interesting that when I discuss becoming like G-d you indicate that it could never be; for G-d will always be the Creator and man the created - but when we discuss scripture you indicate a different attitude in the scripture in which G-d speaks - we should see the scriptures in which G-d (the creator) speaks as the same as all other scripture where men speak in behalf of G-d.

I personally believe that what Jesus spoke concerning what kind of person would enjoy (qualify or be prepared for) heaven as very accurate and that other scriptures should be considered in that context. I believe all scripture does agree when considered within the proper context and I believe Jesus is "The Master" and all others are servants.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

As usual - Thank you for your response.

You are welcome.

I find it most interesting that when I discuss becoming like G-d you indicate that it could never be; for G-d will always be the Creator and man the created - but when we discuss scripture you indicate a different attitude in the scripture in which G-d speaks - we should see the scriptures in which G-d (the creator) speaks as the same as all other scripture where men speak in behalf of G-d.

Actually, Jesus did not write any of the Scriptures. All Scripture is inspired of God. Granted, the gospel writer's quote what they remember Jesus saying--very likely using their own words and style.

There is no example in the New Testament of the church's focusing solely, or even primarily on the words Jesus spoke. Rather, we read about "the Apostles' teachings." The gospel is "of Christ," and "about Christ." However, the church seemed to accept that what the Apostles taught were the teachings of Christ.

I personally believe that what Jesus spoke concerning what kind of person would enjoy (qualify or be prepared for) heaven as very accurate and that other scriptures should be considered in that context. I believe all scripture does agree when considered within the proper context and I believe Jesus is "The Master" and all others are servants.

No disagreements. However, when it comes to dicussions of grace, works and redemption, Paul spoke more directly to the issues. Jesus spoke primarily about the skewed religious practices of the "teachers of the Law," and offered corrective patters--especially the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7).

[Guest TheLordSaves]

This issue of grace vs. works seems to be one that is very important and highly misused. One could say that Christ has done it all on the cross and and there is no need to worry for he has taken our sins upon himself. Yes that is true, but as it says in the Bible that the "Word of God is a double-edged sword," there is another aspect of God's Grace that people forget. One could also that we must be perfect, that is true, Jesus says "be perfect as I am perfect." However, given our sin nature that is impossible. Therefore, how do we be perfect, but rely on the Grace of God without neglecting good works. The truth is to fix our eyes upon Jesus, "the author and perfector of our faith." It is very hard to explain, and it probably only comes through God's personal revelation to you spirit. But the key is repentance and confession to the Lord. When we sin, we know we've sinned, and our sin separates us from God. But he commands us to repent and be saved. Repentence is too "turn away" from you sin. Acknowleding your sin before Him and understanding that you deserve the fires of Hell for what you have done. Now I do not claim to truly see this. But I do know that when I confess my struggles before Jesus He is faithful to forgive. Even Jesus says in Matthew that He desires mercy not sacrifice. But the key is repentence, if we continue to sin, we are rejecting Christ and His sacrifice! It's such a slap in the face! But if we try to do it on our own pridefully, without complete humbleness and falling at the feet of the Lord for help, than that is just as bad, for you are neglecting His once-for-all sacrifice. The evidence of our faith, is if we continue in it. The gospel is so simple, it's merely confessing that you can't do it, you want to, but you can't, so you put your hope in Christ and His precious blood that covers your sin. It's amazing to me, I don't fully understand it, but when we come to the Lord, He changes our heart so that we can stop sinning and pursue good works through His calling! We don't try not to do good works and say "Lord somehow you are going to work in me to do good works and I won't have to do a thing because it's all you." But at the same time it is all Christ works in us the "willingness and the doing of His good pleasure. It's so hard to understand that I still cannot fully comprehend it!

I hope this helps, I'm sorry that it's so long, but this is just something that is very important to me.

[Guest Yediyd]

Paul talks about this idea of Grace verses works very beautifully in Romans Chapter 7...one of my favorite passages of scripture!

[Traveler]

I wondered how many would realize the teachings of Jesus. Again I point to Matt chapter 5. The reason I keep pointing to this scripture in the great sermon of the master is because so many questions and arguments are answered there.

The point that the deeds of righteousness are considered wickedness is answered in proper context by Jesus. Jesus answers that idea and points out that what many think is righteousness under the law or defined in ancient scripture will not qualify or prepare a person to enter into the kingdom of G-d. Jesus points out that there is a righteousness required but it is so different than what many understand.

Can a man look upon a beautiful woman and not lust after her? The Master, Jesus the Christ, teaches how such righteousness is accomplished after we become converted and he warns by what means we become vulnerable even though we believe. There is no one step - quick and easy solutions but there is a process. It is interesting to me that Jesus choose to call his followers or converts - disciples. The word disciple has the same root meaning as discipline. Discipline is a principle of the teachings of Christ. One great mistake we make in the consideration of salvation related to works is that worthiness only looks backwards and always finds a flaw preventing us from moving forward. There is an investment that must take place - without our investment we cannot be prepared (thus the parable of the 10 virgins). Jesus tells us how righteousness can work towards our preparation for entering into the Kingdom of Heaven. Not that such righteousness makes us "worthy". That is the great error. But the righteousness that Jesus taught in Matt. chapter 5 starting at verse 20 is a means to prepare to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. If we do not believe we can prepare we will never prepare. If we do not believe we must prepare our faith lacks, is flawed and is not true faith in the Christ.

Without the atonement of Christ and his grace we would never be able to enter into the kingdom of Heaven but without the preparation that comes from the gospel of Jesus Christ and being doers and not hears only, we will - as Jesus taught - not be prepared to enter into the kingdom of Heaven - though many try to define another way there is no other way. If we are not on a way that prepares us as Jesus says - and finishes with "Be ye therefore perfect" - not looking backwards to the past to find a flaw but forward having completed all the necessary preparation.

The Traveler

[Snow]

What Did Jesus Teach, by grace or by works

Your question does not make sense, even by LDS theological standards.

There is no doubt that salvation is a matter of grace. There is nothing man can do that merits salvation (exaltation), hence the need for the atonement. The question is: To whom does God extend his grace?

1. To those that believe?

2. To those that believe and act on their belief (obeying)?

[Guest TheLordSaves]

Traveler, you said, "Can a man look after a beautiful woman and not lust after her." Yes a man can and that is what Christ commands us to do. Even He said that not a dot or tiddle would pass away from the LAW, but that He had come to fulfill it. The Law of Sin and Death has never passed away. It's like a judge in a court roomm, the judge cannot let a convicted killer walk away scothch free. No, there must be punishment. That's why every time we sin, we break His LAw, and should rightfully be convicted on deeath, but Jesus Christ in His mercy came down and took our punishment for us. Therefore, to put your trust in Him is to reject sin. It doesn't mean that we never sin or have struggles, but it's not our righteousness we're relying on but the righteousness of Christ who became the perfect sacrifice for our sins. By having Jesus' life in you, you are fulfilling His command to "be perfect as I am perfect." It's not us but Him. And again it's through humbleness, to put all your trust on salvation on Christ but still sinning wilfully just doesn't make sense.

[Gabelma]

John 15

10 If ye akeep my commandments, ye shall abide in my blove; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your ajoy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye alove one another, as I have bloved you.

13 Greater alove hath no man than this, that a man lay down his blife for his cfriends.

14 Ye are my afriends, if ye do whatsoever I bcommand you.

I don't see a conflict to me Faith = Christ Cnetered worship, which involves obeying those commandments or at least striving to. There are some wonderful Book of Mormon

Charley

[prisonchaplain]

The question is: To whom does God extend his grace?

1. To those that believe?

2. To those that believe and act on their belief (obeying)?

And the answer is, "Yes. Those who believe will act on their belief."

BTW, those who say they believe, but do not act on their belief have a "dead faith,"--which is worse than useless.

[Traveler]

Traveler, you said, "Can a man look after a beautiful woman and not lust after her." Yes a man can and that is what Christ commands us to do. Even He said that not a dot or tiddle would pass away from the LAW, but that He had come to fulfill it. The Law of Sin and Death has never passed away. It's like a judge in a court roomm, the judge cannot let a convicted killer walk away scothch free. No, there must be punishment. That's why every time we sin, we break His LAw, and should rightfully be convicted on deeath, but Jesus Christ in His mercy came down and took our punishment for us. Therefore, to put your trust in Him is to reject sin. It doesn't mean that we never sin or have struggles, but it's not our righteousness we're relying on but the righteousness of Christ who became the perfect sacrifice for our sins. By having Jesus' life in you, you are fulfilling His command to "be perfect as I am perfect." It's not us but Him. And again it's through humbleness, to put all your trust on salvation on Christ but still sinning wilfully just doesn't make sense.

If the righteousness of Christ is the greatest of all righteousness then the righteousness of his followers must follow next. Traditionally Christians have not been good examples. For example it is very sad what Christians did to the Lucayans - a people so peaceful they lacked a term or word for war in their language. But the Lucayans would not convert to Christianity - not even one Lucayans. So the traditional Christians mass murdered the unarmed Lucayans by the tens of thousands in complete genocide.

I could go along with the few bad apples are not all the apples in the barrel idea except there was not one Christian on planet earth at the time that did any thing or even raised a thought of concern. I cannot find a more striking example of the prophesy of Jesus concerning the results of those that worship the wrong G-d – though they claim otherwise. (See John 8:44)

The Traveler

[clay]

Jesus said, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE light and no one comes to the father except by me. He didn't say i am A way or A truth. He is THE way the THE only way to get to heaven. This speaks to me saying that salvation through Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven. BY grace, not works.

[Guest Yediyd]

Jesus said, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE light and no one comes to the father except by me. He didn't say i am A way or A truth. He is THE way the THE only way to get to heaven. This speaks to me saying that salvation through Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven. BY grace, not works.

By Christ's atonement, we go to Heaven, by works...we determine our rewards.

[Snow]

<div class='quotemain'>

The question is: To whom does God extend his grace?

1. To those that believe?

2. To those that believe and act on their belief (obeying)?

And the answer is, "Yes. Those who believe will act on their belief."

BTW, those who say they believe, but do not act on their belief have a "dead faith,"--which is worse than useless.

I note your distinction... in practice I think it is irrelevant. True faith requires obedience. Whether you have faith and obey or have faith and therefore obey... your still exercising faith and still obeying.

[Traveler]

Jesus said, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE light and no one comes to the father except by me. He didn't say i am A way or A truth. He is THE way the THE only way to get to heaven. This speaks to me saying that salvation through Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven. BY grace, not works.

Interesting quote: In Genesis 3:24 the scriptures tell us that a Cherub is the keeper of the way with a symbolic sword and flame. Who is that scripture talking about?

I would also point out that the Grace of Christ is to all mankind (not just you and those that think like you). It is not because the grace of Christ failed that someone does not enter heaven. It is because they did not prepare themselves for the seed or word of G-d through the works of faith and repentance. Sounds to me that you do not want to even consider providing the oil for your lamp or that Christ will have plenty to hand out when he comes. Good luck with that.

BTW - I really believe that if you so desire you will be allowed into heaven - who ever you are or what ever you think. I am a little amused with the attitude of - Naner, naner G-d is going to let me in but not you (and you can put any reason you want here). I am quite sure he will offer to everyone else every little thing and more than he offers me.

The Traveler

[Gabelma]

Jesus said, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE light and no one comes to the father except by me. He didn't say i am A way or A truth. He is THE way the THE only way to get to heaven. This speaks to me saying that salvation through Jesus Christ is the only way into heaven. BY grace, not works.

I just think if people who are willing to sin and not repent are allowed into heaven quite frankly it won't be very heavenly

Charley

[Guest TheLordSaves]

What he says is true, is it not God's grace to reveal Himself to someone? It is only by grace that we are saved, Paul speaks this pretty clear in Romans. However, shall we sin no. It was God's grace that He took our sins upon Himself to take what we deserve. Our workds cannot save us apart from Christ. No matter what one does, good works or bad works, one cannot enter Heaven unless they have the atonement (or covering) for sins that comes from Christ and Christ alone. Therefore, it is by His grace that one can be saved. As well, don't forget James who says that faith without works is dead. Our righteousness is like filthy rags compared to the glory and purity of God, we must have the covering of Christ upon us, or there will be no sacrifice for sins left, which God's Law requires. But Jesus says that you must first repent and then be saved, so Grace is not cheap in that since, it requires you life to be given over to Christ.

[Gabelma]

What he says is true, is it not God's grace to reveal Himself to someone? It is only by grace that we are saved, Paul speaks this pretty clear in Romans. However, shall we sin no. It was God's grace that He took our sins upon Himself to take what we deserve. Our workds cannot save us apart from Christ. No matter what one does, good works or bad works, one cannot enter Heaven unless they have the atonement (or covering) for sins that comes from Christ and Christ alone. Therefore, it is by His grace that one can be saved. As well, don't forget James who says that faith without works is dead. Our righteousness is like filthy rags compared to the glory and purity of God, we must have the covering of Christ upon us, or there will be no sacrifice for sins left, which God's Law requires. But Jesus says that you must first repent and then be saved, so Grace is not cheap in that since, it requires you life to be given over to Christ.

This is why personally I don't understand where the Grace vs Works arguement comes in I guess - in order to obtain that Grace you have faith in Christ and as part of that you strive to be one with him and do your best. If you have that faith then you obey the commandments

Charley

[prisonchaplain]

Perhaps it would help matters to discuss what salvation means.

* Most evangelicals believe that salvation means conversion.

* For some LDS, nothing short of the Celestial Kingdom could be considered true salvation--and so emphasis obedience, good works, etc.

* Others, see "salvation" as escape from hell, and so say, "Yeah...grace...Jesus did it--but it's for almost everyone--not just Christians."

[Guest TheLordSaves]

To me, salvation is nothing more than putting your life in the hands of Jesus Christ, believing in His Word (the Bible), put your faith in His blood, and obeying His voice.

Denominations and minor disputes between what this verse means or that doesn't matter.

[Gabelma]

Perhaps it would help matters to discuss what salvation means.

* Most evangelicals believe that salvation means conversion.

* For some LDS, nothing short of the Celestial Kingdom could be considered true salvation--and so emphasis obedience, good works, etc.

* Others, see "salvation" as escape from hell, and so say, "Yeah...grace...Jesus did it--but it's for almost everyone--not just Christians."

Salvation for me begins on earth, its begins with the peace that comes when you accept that God is wiser than yourself and knows the way forward, I don't remember a moment of conversion.. For me in particular salvation was finding my baptism after a 10 year search and being able to move forward from that - the Gift of the Holy Ghost added a new angle to everything. I guess for me salvation is growth and the opportunity to reach my full potential with My Heavenly Father and my Saviour by my side

Charley

[Guest TheLordSaves]

I almost forgot, salvation to me is a new life. When your old has changed so miracalously that you are indeed a new person. It fits what Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Unless you be born again you have no life in me." Salvation is to be born again.

[prisonchaplain]

I would note that Gabe talks about the spiritual growth he experiences as he embraces ordinances (baptism, gift of the Holy Spirit), progressing in spiritual maturity), while Lordsaves speaks of the moment of decision (putting faith in Christ/Bible, new life, new person, born again). In other words, a focus on conversion vs. progression.

My verbage may not be precise enough for some, but I believe I'm on to something with this question. :-)

[Gabelma]

I would note that Gabe talks about the spiritual growth he experiences as he embraces ordinances (baptism, gift of the Holy Spirit), progressing in spiritual maturity), while Lordsaves speaks of the moment of decision (putting faith in Christ/Bible, new life, new person, born again). In other words, a focus on conversion vs. progression.

My verbage may not be precise enough for some, but I believe I'm on to something with this question. :-)

I'm a Ma lol - the big difference is for me there wasn't one moment of decision, I have had faith since I was at least 5, I have prayed and trusted that He would direct me to be fair not sure I have always known He was Christ just that God was there. At 6 I saw a picture of Christ being baptised and knew that was what I needed to do - spent 9 years searching for it, even looked at Hinduism, Judaism ect and ideally would have liked to have been Nun or a Minister. But he didn't let me go down that route - I didn't even convert when I met the missionaries, Heavenly Father had prepared me for them - I was annoyed they made me wait 3 weeks to get baptised. I have become a different person to when I was baptised but because I did what the Saviour wanted.

I have a question isn't conversion progressive? I get converted every hour when I do things, yesterday I got to meditate amongst the trees in a very ancient wood, which is wonderful you feel everything bear witness of the Saviour. My son is lying sleeping on my husbands chest that converts me again as I look at them. Personally (and I appreciate people disagree) I think of Faith as a verb not a noun its a doing word - my Faith is organic, it grows and my relationship with the Lord gets stronger, baptism was essential because that is what the Saviour wants of me, the Gift of the Holy Ghost when I mentioned it I was thinking more about the way it sharpens those gut instincts that allow me to follow the Saviour more closely. Again yes the Temple has its ordinances but its those opportunities I get with it to grow that bit closer to the Saviour to become that bit stronger of a person. To me Faith means Christ directed works, putting yourself in His hands, growing to the potential He has for you (multiplying your talents like in the parable) and growing closer to Him.

I love the Narnia books - in them when the children meet Aslan each time he seems bigger not because he has grown, Aslan stays the same, but because they have grown - that is my definition of Faith. The last question in the Temple Recommend interview asks are you worthy to enter the Temple - I had a Bishop who when I hummed and ahhed about the question told me to go away and pray about it decide what it ment to me, and come back when I could answer it with my head held high and a clear yes, So I did to me that question means have a grown closer to the Lord, am I better person than the last time I answered it. For me whilst the questions never change my understanding of the interview changes and the questions seem different its the same principle.

- Charley (Charlotte)