Capitalist_Oinker Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 It's not that his sorrow wasn't genuine. It was just incomplete because he could not finish the process of repentance without the grace of God which was only to be extended after he suffered in hell. "Make your calling and election sure go on from grace to grace until you obtain a promise from God for yourselves that you shall have eternal life....Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, this is the power of Elijah to seal or bind or turn the hearts of the fathers to their children sealed against all sin but the sin of shedding innocent blood and the sin against the Holy Ghost. David was one of the promised seed yet he was guilty of murder. (James Burger Notebook, quoted in Words of the Prophet Joseph Smith, loc 3988 kindle)"To obtain this sealing is to make our calling and election sure which we ought to give all diligence to accomplish there are two sins against which this power does not secure or prevail they are "The sin against the Holy Ghost" And "shedding of innocent Blood" which is equivelant to "crucifying the Son of God afresh & putting him to an open shame" Those who do these it is impossible to renew unto repentance for they are delivered to the buffettings of satan until the day of redemptions illustrated the case of David said he could not obtain celestial glory and the reason why he had any hope or obtained a Promise that of his seed one should be raised up to reign over Israel forever was because that he had not spoken against the spirit & because he had not done this he was renewed unto repentance and obtained promise that God would not leave his soul in Hell" (Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items", also quoted in Words of the Prophet Joseph Smith, loc 3999) Apparently you're much better at reading between the lines than I am, but I don't see how either quote proves that David once had his calling and election made sure. Besides, as I said before, it really isn’t germane to the debate anyway. As for your anti-penal substitute argument you seem to be entirely fixated on the principle of "pain" (physical or spiritual---I can't tell which?)It seems to me that the penalties/punishments attached to God's commandments consist of much more than just pain. Some punishment is eternal regardless of repentance or even the Atonement! In reality, only those who ultimately obtain Eternal Life will be free of eternal punishment. Everyone else will in essence be punished eternally having NOT obtained Eternal Life. While we may eventually be forgiven of our sins, unless we obtain Eternal Life we will never be rid of the consequences of our sins. The Folk Prophet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) Apparently you're much better at reading between the lines than I am, but I don't see how either quote proves that David once had his calling and election made sure. Besides, as I said before, it really isn’t germane to the debate anyway. As for your anti-penal substitute argument you seem to be entirely fixated on the principle of "pain" (physical or spiritual---I can't tell which?)It seems to me that the penalties/punishments attached to God's commandments consist of much more than just pain. Some punishment is eternal regardless of repentance or even the Atonement! In reality, only those who ultimately obtain Eternal Life will be free of eternal punishment. Everyone else will in essence be punished eternally having NOT obtained Eternal Life. While we may eventually be forgiven of our sins, unless we obtain Eternal Life we will never be rid of the consequences of our sins. I prefer to think in therms of results or consequences rather than pain, penalties and punishments - of which there could be 3 possibilities but I believe scripture tells us that their are really only two - mainly good and evil. Thus we choose - in essence we choose the consequence - be it either good or evil. We have not yet defined good or evil. Mostly good and evil is defined because of what consequences may happen to others. This I believe to be a grave error for reasons we can discuss but I will leave for now - only to state that according to agency we can only choose between good an evil as it pertains to us personally. Thus the choice has at it core nothing to do with others in that we choose the result for ourselves an no one else. Because I believe we choose for ourselves I do not think that thinking in terms of punishment, pain or suffering actually applies in the way most of us think of such things. In fact I believe it could be argued that to force someone to choose without agency is a greater punishment than for them to choose evil. So for me G-d is not about punishment or rewards but rather choices and consequences. I believe that the plan of salvation is divinely designed to first allow us to acquire knowledge of good and evil through experience. Evil we experience because of the fall of Adam - good we experience because of the atonement of Christ. Because of our experience of the Fall and Atonement we have knowledge of good and evil. It is my belief that when we stand before G-d to make account of our experience and we will make known to G-d - our desire and choice. If we choose to be rid of all our sins we can choose repentance to be free of them - or we can, according to our desire, choose to keep some sin (or if we wish all sin) to which we have learned to love and desire to be part of us for eternity. Not as a punishment for choosing wrongly but as a consequence of our choice. If our consequence is a reward or punishment - it is so only because we think it so - to those that love darkness more than light -- darkness is a reward. Edited April 29, 2015 by Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timpman Posted May 13, 2015 Report Share Posted May 13, 2015 I believe God has all power that is possible for Him to possess. In that sense, He is all powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted May 14, 2015 Report Share Posted May 14, 2015 I believe God has all power that is possible for Him to possess. In that sense, He is all powerful. Just for the record - I believe there is real and actual power with evil and that G-d will have nothing to do with such power. To me he does not possess all power and that the power he has is all - 100% good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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