Individual Worth Of Each Son Or Daughter

[CrimsonKairos]

Technically you are correct, Traveler.

There is a difference, though, between Jesus lying down at home and letting his spirit leave his body, and being nailed to a cross and being in a position where any other mortal would die.

Christ could have regenerated his body and numbed the pain, but he allowed himself to be put in a situation that would have killed any other mortal. The fact that Christ chose to let his mortal body reach the point of death is important in that he voluntarily allowed his execution. No man took it from him. The sacrifice was voluntarily offered, not forced.

At the same time, the cross was the cause of Christ's death. He was murdered. His body was taken by others and put in a position (crucifixion) where death was inevitable for a normal mortal.

To me this distinction is important. I still call Christ's death murder, because unless Christ restored his body's health on the cross, he had to let his spirit leave his degenerated and deadened mortal frame. He chose not to regenerate his health. He chose to let his body reach the point where other mortals' spirits would have to leave their bodies. In other words, he didn't take any short-cuts or experience a death different from one any mortal would have experienced in the same position on the cross.

So the fact that Jesus didn't scourge himself, or nail himself to the cross, or pierce his own side with a spear, shows that his blood was shed by others, not himself. He allowed his body to proceed to the point of death without altering the external causes, even though he could have, true. But he didn't instigate the death process, and that is significant.

I think it's like putting a noose around someone's neck and dropping them off a ledge to hang them. Suppose the person's hands aren't tied, and that furthermore, the person being hanged has a knife. He can cut the rope and save himself from hanging, but he chooses not to for some compelling reason. So while technically he chose to die, he didn't tie the noose around his own neck or put himself in a position to have to choose whether to live or die. It would still be accurate to say he was murdered.

[Traveler]

Technically you are correct, Traveler.

There is a difference, though, between Jesus lying down at home and letting his spirit leave his body, and being nailed to a cross and being in a position where any other mortal would die.

To me this distinction is important. I still call Christ's death murder, because unless Christ restored his body's health on the cross, he had to let his spirit leave his degenerated and deadened mortal frame. He chose not to regenerate his health. He chose to let his body reach the point where other mortals' spirits would have to leave their bodies. In other words, he didn't take any short-cuts or experience a death different from one any mortal would have experienced in the same position on the cross.

So the fact that Jesus didn't scourge himself, or nail himself to the cross, or pierce his own side with a spear, shows that his blood was shed by others, not himself. He allowed his body to proceed to the point of death without altering the external causes, even though he could have, true. But he didn't instigate the death process, and that is significant.

I think it's like putting a noose around someone's neck and dropping them off a ledge to hang them. Suppose the person's hands aren't tied, and that furthermore, the person being hanged has a knife. He can cut the rope and save himself from hanging, but he chooses not to for some compelling reason. So while technically he chose to die, he didn't tie the noose around his own neck or put himself in a position to have to choose whether to live or die. It would still be accurate to say he was murdered.

I suggest you read "Jesus The Christ" by James E. Talmage - What caused the death of Jesus was not the cross, he literally died of a broken heart - according to evidence that is given in scripture. No doubt he was in great pain and I know that many intended to take his life. But if you want to believe otherwise you may do as you wish but I believe the truth is as Elder Talmage published it.

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

I actually far prefer the six volume "Messiah Series" by McConkie than Talmage's "Jesus the Christ." I read both before my mission and it was thanks to the Messiah Series that my testimony of Christ went from 2D to 3D so to speak.

I'm aware of Elder Talmage's belief about why water gushed out of Christ's side along with blood when the soldier speared him, and how this suggests the actual cause of death was rupture of the heart wall leading to corpuscle clotting and separation from the clear serum in the pericardium.

However, I believe the water that poured from Christ's side was fluid that had collected in his lungs during his nine hour unnatural suspension. With arms raised above your head in such a position, you cannot get a full breath unless you push yourself up and give your ribcage room to expand. But with your feet nailed to the cross, pushing yourself up becomes very, very painful. Fluid collects in your lungs due to your inability to breathe correctly. Ultimately, you either die from starvation, shock or you drown yourself...suffocate.

I question Talmage's belief about why the Romans occasionally broke the victims' legs to hasten their deaths. He asserts that it was because the sudden shock was too great. Huh? And being crucified wasn't a sudden shock? I believe it was because without the use of their legs to support themselves, the crucified cannot get vertical enough to breathe correctly and they suffocate shortly thereafter.

So while it's nice to think Christ died literally and figuratively from a "broken heart" (ruptured heart wall), I don't buy it even though it fits nicely together conceptually.