Question

[CrimsonKairos]

Interesting thoughts, Dr. S.

Wouldn't bema and krino be redundant for believers? I mean, if krino is about works, what would bema be about for believers?

[Doctor Steuss]

Interesting thoughts, Dr. S.

Wouldn't bema and krino be redundant for believers? I mean, if krino is about works, what would bema be about for believers?

Come on now, it’s too late in the day to make me think deeply

Honestly, I’m not sure. I’m going to have to meditate on this one a bit. (Thank you for getting my noggin going -- what a fantastic question [one that I’ve never really thought about]).

For quite a while, I thought that perhaps the Krino judgment was reserved for unbelievers only. However fairly recently I stumbled across several verses that utilize Krino (or a derivative) when speaking of believers. Maybe I need to go back and re-examine those verses to find if they necessarily point in the direction of believers, or if there’s another way to look at them.

Thank you again,

Stu

[Dr T]

Dr. T, have you read these before?

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Pet. 3:18-20)

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6)

The second excerpt is quite explicit. The gospel was taught to departed spirits why? That they might be judged according to the flesh (i.e. physical ordinances like baptism and laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost), but live according to the spirit (i.e. receive these physical ordinances though they be spirits without physical bodies).

What's your take on those?

Those are interesting verses CK. As always, anyone reading my posts please note that I am not a theologian or professional Bible scholar. My initial impression of the above verses would have to do with Jesus talking to all those that had passed away and were whereever they were before being taken to live with God forever since this was not likely a possibility until Jesus finished the work of life, death, and resurrection. He might have gone to those spirits to let them know, "It's done! I am sovereign and because of what I've done, you know will be divinely judged." Basically it was a message of salvation because of the completed work not a "second chance" to become saved. When it talks about the 8 souls all the rest perished (physically) because of their wicked ways and it shows that Jesus was in charge of their souls after they leave their earthly bodies and that he want back and showed them, "I am God and will Judge the living and the dead-which is all of you-if you didn't catch that" (Sorry not trying to be irreverent about what Jesus was saying to them because I know it was serious but I can just see the image while talking to them and laying it out for them). :) I don't think it is a second chance and I don't expect anyone to actually consider my response. I'd have to do some looking into this to see if it is consistent with the rest of the Bible or not and get some other, more experienced Christians on their take but that's what I'm thinking about those as I look at them.

[CrimsonKairos]

We need to be clear, Dr. T, on one very important distinction.

I'm not saying it was a second chance for those who were dead.

I'm saying it was their first chance, since they never had a chance to accept Christ or his gospel ordinances while in mortality. This includes but is not limited to, say, people who lived in the furthest hinterlands of Asia or the Pacific Islands during the life of Christ, and who never had an opportunity to hear let alone accept the gospel.

Hence, they had the gospel preached to them and through the proxy baptisms and other ordinances we perform in temples, they had the choice to accept the ordinances "according to men in the flesh," and hence, live those covenants though they were but spirits at that point.

[Dr T]

Oh. If you are saying that Jesus went to tell them, "Don't worry, you can still do the required work to get to heaven" then I'd disagree with the idea of having baptism done for them and the work in proxy by others, if that's what you are referring to, being his reason for talking to them. As I said in another thread, I think when referred to "people doing baptism for the dead" he was talking about people/heathens were the one's doing that or those there were lead astray not the group of Christians such as Paul and Peter, etc.

[CrimsonKairos]

I understand your take on that Dr. T.

I'm not trying to convince you I'm right. What I'm trying to show is that if salvation requires:

1.) Hearing and comprehending the gospel (how to overcome sin through Christ's sacrifice); and...

2.) Partaking of certain ordinances (such as being baptized to fulfill all righteousness); and...

3.) If someone didn't have the chance to do either of those things in mortality; then...

4.) A merciful God would provide some way for the departed spirits to hear the gospel message and partake of the physical ordinances that are required of the rest of us with physical bodies.

I'm not saying you have to believe ordinances are required or anything. I was just showing that if someone did believe ordinances were required following an acceptance of Christ as Savior, then it makes sense for the gospel to be taught to them in the spirit world as Peter says, and for us to be baptized in their place as Paul says in 1 Cor.

I know you don't believe all that. That's fine. I was just explaining the verses from a certain point of view. B)

[Dr T]

Thank you for your POV CK. :)

[NDD18]

Oh. If you are saying that Jesus went to tell them, "Don't worry, you can still do the required work to get to heaven" then I'd disagree with the idea of having baptism done for them and the work in proxy by others, if that's what you are referring to, being his reason for talking to them. As I said in another thread, I think when referred to "people doing baptism for the dead" he was talking about people/heathens were the one's doing that or those there were lead astray not the group of Christians such as Paul and Peter, etc.

That interpretation of that scripture contradicts the context in which it was given, will give that later.

But in the scripture discussed; 1 peter 3:18-21, It says, that Jesus Christ Preached to those in the Spirit World or Prison. Why would he preach his gospel to them, if they could not accept it, and be baptized. Is not baptism required to Enter into Gods kingdom?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Therefore in that it does reference Baptism for the Dead, because it would of been vain to preach to them without it.

back to 1 corinthians 15:29 , it says, Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

hes saying that baptism for the dead is vain if they do not get resurrected. There is a resurrection, thats the whole purpose of the chapter. Therefore to Paul, and those practicing, it was not vain to do it.

Also Baptism for the Dead has many other references to early Christianity other than in the Bible, such as in the Third Book of Hermas sim.9 verses 152-169, Pastor Hermas was a highly revered Christian leader in early Christianity, and his writings were considered scripture then,

"So these also who had fallen asleep received the seal of the Son of God and 'entered into the kingdom of God'. . . . This seal, then, was preached to them also, and they made use of it 'to enter into the kingdom of God.'"

"Why, Sir," said I, "did the 40 stones also come up with them from the deep, although they had received the seal already?"

"Because," said he, "these apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, having fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached also to those who had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave to them the seal of the preaching. They went down therefore with them into the water and came up again, but the latter went down alive and came up alive, while the former, who had fallen asleep before, went down dead but came up alive. Through them, therefore, they were made alive, and received the knowledge of the name of the Son of God. . . . For they had fallen asleep in righteousness and in great purity, only they had not received this seal. You have then the explanation of these things also."

Hermas in this section, is asking an Angel a Question about baptism, specifically baptism for those dead. How can those already baptized get rebaptized, but for others. the answer was that, The apostles and teachers preach to those dead after they die, and give them the opportunity to receive the ordinance, and so the baptism is specifically just for those people in which it was for, not for those physically getting baptized who have already received it. Most scholars today will tell you and believe that Baptism of the Dead was practiced in Early Christianity. Early Christians believed that it was possible to receive things and learn things they didn't have the chance to do here after death. They believed the scriptures when they said, ""Why was the Gospel preached to those who are dead? In order that, although in the body they received the sentence common to men, they might in the spirit be alive with the life of God".(1 peter 4:6)

[the Ogre]

Sorry if I seem jaded...just had some run ins with some "nice" non-Mormons, reciently...

JUst use green or purple to make that jaded part not sound so red.