My Problem With Church Leadership

[CrimsonKairos]

Aphrodite, I'd really encourage you to just tell your dad about your problems. If your husband agrees, why not all three of you sit down and talk about it? You're not going to get better by pretending you're alright. It seems like your dad could really be a source of help based on what you've told me about him.

One piece of advice. Start off by saying you haven't decided to leave the Church or give up. At first in this thread, it sounded to me like you had decided the Church wasn't worth anything and that's why I started to think you were just bad-mouthing it. Once I knew you were in the middle of the crisis...and not past it...I realized you were seeking input.

I wish you the best...I wish I could do more for y'all. Hang in there...find a way to pay tithing. I don't know your situation. It sounds hard. Just find a way to pay tithing, even if that means receiving food or supplies from the bishop's storehouse. Would your husband rather feel proud he doesn't need help, or would he rather feel right about obeying God and keeping his covenants to tithe? Really sit down and consider these things together. I hope you start feeling better and finding answers to your difficult situation!

[Snow]

Yes, we did. My husband called him up and said almost word for word what you just said.

Aphodite,

I don't know what all your issues are but your posts suggest that they are some of the same types of things that I have gone through over the years in one way or another. It sounds like lots of people have given you lots of advice.

I have only one piece of advice, for what it's worth... but it is the best single advice I ever got and helped me out eventually in all sorts of ways - with testimony issues, with relationship issues, with interest in religion/Church issues, worthiness issues and worse.

My Bishops said this and didn't explain much beyond it:

"True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior. The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel." (Boyd K. Packer, Conference Report, October 1986)

I didn't have the best memory back then so instead of studying doctrine, I studied Church history and that led to doctrine, which led to scriptures but it's still the controversial stuff and fascinating history that drives my passion for religion and keeps me motivated enough to maintain and improve my testimony.

I try not to worry about what the Bishop or the members do or say, what the critics say, what current doubts befuddle my mind. I plug away at study and learning little by little and find that Boyd K. Packer was 100% right. The study of doctrine changes behavior - not only that but improves your mental health, ignites your passion and makes life a much better thing.

For me, doctrine in and of itself is kind of life aerobics - yeah it's good for you but it's boring. I much prefer my exercise that comes with a little competion and scenery - like real sports. So, in order to be interested in doctrine enough to learn it, I come on the internet and pick fights - I like the competion. It must annoy others a great deal... but all I know is that Elder Packer was right.

Best regards.

Snow

[CrimsonKairos]

So you'd paraphrase Packer to mean: there is no way to change behavior that's as fun as debating doctrine? B)

Just screwin' with ya, man.

Good point.

[Snow]

So you'd paraphrase Packer to mean: there is no way to change behavior that's as fun as debating doctrine? B)

Just screwin' with ya, man.

Good point.

In my case, that is actually true. Problem is that sometimes I get mad and then I feel rotten, but I've also learned to better exercise some small self-control.

[BenRaines]

I used a great talk given back on October 93 by Stephen Robinson on Enduring to the End in FHE this Monday. In it he gave what I thought was a great analogy. He said that there are members of the church who every day have to decide if they want to be members, every day. He asked "How would your marriage be if every day you had to get up and decide, Today I will stay married". He went on to say that we need to decide if we are in our we are out, preferably in.

He went on to say that there are many who say "I am eternally married and will work out whatever it is." Our membership in Gods Kingdom should be the same.

You can find the talk at lds.org under Enduring to the End.

Ben Raines

[Guest Yediyd]

Im sorry you had a heart attack Yediyd. But I dont think its fair of you to slam the way I feel about wearing garments. I was wearing them when I had my wedding dress fittings and I had to stand there in front of the shop girl wearing them while she helped me into my dress. I felt so uncomfortable and stupid. I really didnt care what she thought-I felt stupid. I would have felt the same at the hospital, so I thanked my stars I didnt have them on. I felt 'normal'. I felt ME. I cant help hating them. Even if I had no issues with the church or temple Id still hate them. My step Mother hates them but she still wears them. The stake Presidents wife hates them. I think most women probably do, or at least have issue with them. Even if they are 'right' they're still awful horrible unconfortable impractical things. I dont think its unrealistic of me to feel uncomfortable in front of strangers in underwear circa 1850.

If you dont Yedi, fine, but I do. We're all different.

You are right and I apologize, I guess I just can't imagine that because I LOVE them!! I think they are very comfortable and I wear them with great pride!! I was proud to tell the nurses that I had a religious reason for insisting that they stay on and I felt SO much more comfortable in them then just the stupid hospital gowns!!! They set me apart and made me feel special and they still do. I will agree with you that they make me uncomfortable in the heat...but I have central air in my apartment and I use it in the summer, so....I don't suffer much.

The heart attack was a mild one...but I did get a wake up call.

[sixpacktr]

I used a great talk given back on October 93 by Stephen Robinson on Enduring to the End in FHE this Monday. In it he gave what I thought was a great analogy. He said that there are members of the church who every day have to decide if they want to be members, every day. He asked "How would your marriage be if every day you had to get up and decide, Today I will stay married". He went on to say that we need to decide if we are in our we are out, preferably in.

He went on to say that there are many who say "I am eternally married and will work out whatever it is." Our membership in Gods Kingdom should be the same.

You can find the talk at lds.org under Enduring to the End.

Ben Raines

Great thoughts, Ben.

Understanding the doctrine and gaining a testimony by the spirit and then striving to keep it are the keys. If we fail to do any of those things, we are setting ourselves up to be pulled away, slightly at first and then with increasing force, from what we know to be true.

Once we make covenants, we can't just decide that "we didn't mean it" and expect the Lord to forget. It doesn't work that way. Being in the church is a hard thing for some, not so hard for others, but it requires a lot from us, and we need to COMMIT to stay the course...

[CrimsonKairos]

The problem arises when people aren't prepared to make covenants, but then go through with it for whatever reason (and honestly, who's going to walk out of the endowment room at the beginning when asked if anyone wants to, especially when its your first time and all your family/friends came to be there with you and you don't know what's up ahead--good or bad?)

Anyway, Ben, that quote is spot on. It just helps if someone has a testimony of those covenants somewhere in the past so that deciding to stick with it makes sense to them (not logically, but spiritually).

[bunnzy]

I had a bishop call me into his office and tell me to repent from taking drugs, when i had never had drugs, i was hanging out with the 'wrong' people.

I once had another bishop say to me after i had been raped that 'noone wants a chewed up piece of gum.'

The same man also insulted me years later when i was married and pregnant calling me fat.

Leaders are not perfect.

[shanstress70]

I had a bishop call me into his office and tell me to repent from taking drugs, when i had never had drugs, i was hanging out with the 'wrong' people.

I once had another bishop say to me after i had been raped that 'noone wants a chewed up piece of gum.'

The same man also insulted me years later when i was married and pregnant calling me fat.

Leaders are not perfect.

That is not just 'not perfect'. I can think of a better name for someone who would say such a thing about someone being raped. Sorry you had to hear such a thing after such a traumatic experience.

[BenRaines]

I have known of Bishops that have gotten divorced and then excommunicated. Never thought them to be perfect.

Based on most people's comments here I guess they would second guess Christ's selecting Judas as an Apostle and wonder why he wouldn't have known better if he knew everything.

Ben Raines

[sixpacktr]

Based on most people's comments here I guess they would second guess Christ's selecting Judas as an Apostle and wonder why he wouldn't have known better if he knew everything.

Ben,

Great line!

[Aphrodite]

The problem arises when people aren't prepared to make covenants, but then go through with it for whatever reason (and honestly, who's going to walk out of the endowment room at the beginning when asked if anyone wants to, especially when its your first time and all your family/friends came to be there with you and you don't know what's up ahead--good or bad?)

exactly-thats where i feel a bit cheated and deceived-Lull you in by telling you its good your whole life so that when you're there it is impossible to do anything but agree. The whole temple culture of going woth your family to have this alledgedly amazing experience..I wanted to say NO, NO, NO! To all of it but how could I? I was too scared too. No one said to me, its ok to do that, you are free agent. Everyone just said, you will go, you will enjoy it. Did go, did not enjoy it.

He said that there are members of the church who every day have to decide if they want to be members, every day.

Well thats me. I dont see why thats bad. Surely its better to stay and be unsure than leave. That quote sounds like its saying, if you're not sure, make up your mind or get out. Thats christian love for you. So much for the church being a hospital! Its obvious they only want a certain calibre of people.

So, in order to be interested in doctrine enough to learn it, I come on the internet and pick fights - I like the competion. It must annoy others a great deal...

And you said I was immature!!!

[shanstress70]

I have known of Bishops that have gotten divorced and then excommunicated. Never thought them to be perfect.

Based on most people's comments here I guess they would second guess Christ's selecting Judas as an Apostle and wonder why he wouldn't have known better if he knew everything.

Ben Raines

Ben I'm just talking about her bishop telling her that no one likes chewed up gum, after she was raped. That's a bit excessive, don't you think? Can you defend someone for saying such a thing?

[BenRaines]

No there is no defense for that.

My comment was a general one about many of the post regarding leaders and their being human but expected to be perfect and Stake Presidents that call them or how Bishops can call people and then have the people be imperfect.

Even Christ called someone who betrayed him. Will not get in to the "He had to so he could be betrayed". We know that with history but we are living in the now and don't know what the history will be of todays actions.

Ben Raines