Membership in the Great and Abominable Church

[Vort]

Read his books.  His writing is unambiguous.  You'll see that is exactly what he means. 

 

Elder Anderson actually wrote "18%"?

[Guest]

I got the 36% activity rate from the a Pew poll.

 

The Pew poll has a geographical skew.  The last I heard (and I admit it was a while ago) it was still closer to 50%.

 

Elder Andersen said that the 5 foolish, 5 wise virgins applied to the "faithful" church members, not the Christian world as a whole. 

 

I'd still debate that interpretation of scripture until I hear something as official doctrine.

 

As for the "all or part" part, I would have to agree with Elder Andersen. 

...

 

I'm not against all government, but ...

 

I'm not disagreeing with him in principle.  I'm disagreeing with the application.  

 

It was you who posted the poll about the manifesto, correct?  Many planks are not about being on the dole.  It is not all about redistribution of wealth.

 

First of all, you have to understand that the Communist Manifesto was Marxism, not classical communism.  And Karl Marx as a blind man on a trotting horse can still hit the target once in a while.  Some of the planks mentioned necessary elements of government but were twisted into government monopolies on such, which I disagree with.  But to question whether the government should be involved at all is quite another.

 

To be COMPLETELY in disagreement with ALL of his Manifesto is to deny the need for ANY government.  It's just a logistical reality.  The very existence of government, even one strictly adhering to the Constitution, would necessarily violate individual rights on some level.

 

The reason we even have government, though, is that with fallible man, we either have government or anarchy.  When government  becomes more tyrannical than anarchy, it is time to get rid of that government.

[JojoBag]

Elder Anderson actually wrote "18%"?

 

No.  He wrote "faithful."  Here is the quote.  You can decide for yourself.

 

As unlikely as it may seem to those who regard themselves as members of Christ’s Church, the scriptures indicate that many will be deceived into belonging to Satan’s Great and Abominable Church also. According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the “great division” comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful” members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization. Let us examine these two parables with this possibility in mind.

Both were taught during the Lord’s ministry on earth, and are also presented in modern scripture as having application in this last dispensation. Regarding the “wheat and tares” parable, Elder James E. Talmage has said:

So important is the lesson embodied in this parable, and so assured is the literal fulfillment of its contained predictions, that the Lord has given a further explication through revelation in the current dispensation, a period in which the application is direct and immediate. (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 288)

In the last days, the angels will be pleading with the Lord to allow them to reap down the fields, but he will restrain them with these words:

pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also. Therefore, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the fares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the fares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be burned (D&C 86:6-7)

Another modern revelation states that these tares are indeed members of Satan’s great and abominable church:

That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tarès of the earth;.(D&C 88:94)

President Joseph Fielding Smith has assured us that there will be “tares” among the Church members. Said he:

There are so many influences at work to divide us asunder, right among the members of the Church, and there is going to come, one of these days in the near future, a separation of the wheat from the tares, and we are either wheat or fares. We are going to be on one side or the other. (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.111, p. 16)

The parable of the “virgins” is perhaps even more explicit in warning Church members that Satan will ensnare many of them. We may assume that the group to which Christ referred in this parable are all “good Christians.” All of them believe in, and are looking anxiously forward to, the second coming. Each considers herself equally worthy to enter into the marriage with the bridegroom, and is waiting up even until midnight watching for the Master. Outwardly, they are indistinguishable one from another, however, at the last moment, fully one half of this “faithful” assemblage will be rejected by the Savior with these words:

Verily I say unto you, I know you not. (Matt. 25:12)

Another warning that Christ will reject “many” of those who have labored in his Church and regard themselves as worthy for the kingdom is contained in the Sermon on the Mount. Christ taught:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt. 7:21-23)

The late President of the Church, John Taylor, commented on this scripture as follows:

We are told that, many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?’ Yet to all such will he say, ‘Depart from me, ye that work iniquity.’ You say that means the outsiders? No, it does not. Do they do many wonderful works in the name of Jesus? No.

This means you Latter-day Saints, who heal the sick, cast out devils and do many wonderful things in the name of Jesus…Hear it, ye Latter-day Saints! Hear it, ye Seventies and ye High Priests!… (D&C Commentary, pp. 462, 463)

 

I cannot see that less-active members could possibly be among the "faithful" LDS.  I would even go further in saying that the "faithful" should only include those who hold a temple recommend or qualify for one but for whatever reason, i.e. age, not married, etc., cannot hold one.  I admit that is a pretty narrow interpretation, though.

 

I also take into consideration Elder Heber C. Kimball's quote from the book, "Life Everlasting,: by Duane Crowther.  Elder Kimball stated that he doubted that more than "one in twenty" LDS will enter the gates of the Celestial Kingdom.  That's only 5%.  I also take into consideration another study I read about in a 1976 conference talk in which a University of Utah study was quoted.  That study stated that only 5% of LDS had a year supply of grain on hand.  Less than 3% had vegetables and meat.

 

I can easily believe the figure of 18% when all that is taken into consideration.

Edited December 16, 2015 by JojoBag

[Guest]

If Heber C. Kimball said that, he was talking about those pioneers who had crossed the plains.  If only 5% of those guys are getting exalted...good luck to the rest of us.

[zil]

I cannot see that less-active members could possibly be among the "faithful" LDS.  I would even go further in saying that the "faithful" should only include those who hold a temple recommend or qualify for one but for whatever reason, i.e. age, not married, etc., cannot hold one.  I admit that is a pretty narrow interpretation, though.

Since when are age and marital status determining factors in whether one can "hold" a temple recommend?

[Guest MormonGator]

Since when are age and marital status determining factors in whether one can "hold" a temple recommend?

 Zil-Can a child hold a temple recommend? I ask in ignorance. I honestly don't know. 

I don't have kids so I don't pay attention to the church rules on them. In fairness to me, most men without kids don't either. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by MormonGator

[zil]

 Zil-Can a child hold a temple recommend? I ask in ignorance. I honestly don't know. 

Ah, I was thinking in the other direction (too old) as too young didn't seem applicable to the original statement (too young wouldn't "qualify").  OK, so, if you're worthy and old enough, you can hold a temple recommend either for doing baptisms for the dead (youth) or just a regular recommend (those old enough to have received their own endowment).

 

But marital status?  I've never heard of such a thing.  Actually, I've never heard of anything that would prevent a qualified member from getting a temple recommend, even if some circumstance keeps them from attending a temple.

[Guest MormonGator]

Ah, I was thinking in the other direction (too old) as too young didn't seem applicable to the original statement (too young wouldn't "qualify").  OK, so, if you're worthy and old enough, you can hold a temple recommend either for doing baptisms for the dead (youth) or just a regular recommend (those old enough to have received their own endowment).

 

But marital status?  I've never heard of such a thing.  Actually, I've never heard of anything that would prevent a qualified member from getting a temple recommend, even if some circumstance keeps them from attending a temple.

 No I totally agree. Of course marital status shouldn't prevent you from going to the temple. Unless you are like eight times divorced and not paying spousal support or something.  

[Guest]

Ages 12 and up can get a limited use recommend to perform proxy baptisms. Beyond that, only adults; but marital status isn't a determining factor (excepting child support issues and such). 

[Guest MormonGator]

; but marital status isn't a determining factor (excepting child support issues and such). 

 So I can bring all of my seven wives to the temple? Sweet. 

[Guest]

I think that would fall  under "and such".

[Guest MormonGator]

I think that would fall  under "and such".

 You are such a buzzkill. 

[Guest]

Seven wives would be the buzzkill!

[Guest MormonGator]

Seven wives would be the buzzkill!

Only when they find out about each other. Yikes! 

 

Edited December 16, 2015 by MormonGator

[zil]

Thanks for the laughs, Eowyn and Gator!

 

I'll still be interested in hearing what JojoBag meant by the age and not married portions of: "I would even go further in saying that the "faithful" should only include those who hold a temple recommend or qualify for one but for whatever reason, i.e. age, not married, etc., cannot hold one."

[Guest MormonGator]

Thanks for the laughs, Eowyn and Gator!

 

I

 Hey Zil? If you are a girl and interested in being wife number 8...let me know. We can work something out. 

[zil]

 Hey Zil? If you are a girl and interested in being wife number 8...let me know. We can work something out. 

I'm female, but well past being a "girl" - except when some toys show up...  Meanwhile, that's the best offer I've had in years - thanks!

 

On the other hand, at lunch today, I was driving with some friends past the "Men's Warehouse" and we were discussing whether we should stop and see what kind of men they had in stock.  I was thinking a handyman and one who likes cooking and cleaning would suit me fine!  

[Vort]

 

I cannot see that less-active members could possibly be among the "faithful" LDS.

 

But the point is not what you (or any of us) can "see". The point is what he said:

 

According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the “great division” comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful” members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization

 

Note the bolded part. "Those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members" includes many who are classified as inactive, many who do not pay tithing (or full tithing), many who care nothing for the Sabbath day, many who give little effort to building the kingdom of God, and in short, many who simply don't live the commandments but justify themselves in their sin. You are pretty much excluding most or all of these.

 

I see enforced collectivism as a form of slavery, whether it's called communism, socialism, or (as Obama and his ilk put it) "fairness". In this, I think we agree. But you seem to be of the impression that anyone who supports such things to any degree is on the left hand of God and risks his own eternal salvation because of such beliefs. This strikes me as a highly political view of grace and salvation, one that I frankly reject. I have known many good Saints from Europe, from Canada, and yes, even from the US, who hold to socialist principles that I firmly reject, yet who I am convinced are at least as justified before God as I am. I may not be the standard by which people are judged, but if they are on Christ's left hand because they have been indoctrinated with some socialist ideals, I cannot imagine there is any hope for me.

 

I would even go further in saying that the "faithful" should only include those who hold a temple recommend or qualify for one but for whatever reason, i.e. age, not married, etc., cannot hold one.  I admit that is a pretty narrow interpretation, though.

 

Again, the point is not what our own interpretation might be, but what was actually meant. I am very confident that this talk and the parable behind it were never meant to establish a statistic like "18%" as a measure of the faithfulness of the Saints.

 

As a general rule, we are to apply such principles to ourselves, asking, "Lord, is it I?" and "What lack I yet?" It is not intended that we apply such principles to everyone else so that we can figure out what percentage of our brothers and sisters will be damned for eternity and which small slice might enjoy exaltation with us.

 

I also take into consideration Elder Heber C. Kimball's quote from the book, "Life Everlasting,: by Duane Crowther.  Elder Kimball stated that he doubted that more than "one in twenty" LDS will enter the gates of the Celestial Kingdom.  That's only 5%.

 

And again, I think this completely misses the point.

 

 I also take into consideration another study I read about in a 1976 conference talk in which a University of Utah study was quoted.  That study stated that only 5% of LDS had a year supply of grain on hand.  Less than 3% had vegetables and meat.

 

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Elder Heber C. Kimball once stated his opinion that he doubted that more than one in twenty Saints would gain their exaltation. That, coupled with a U of U study in the mid-1970s that suggested that only about one in twenty or one in thirty Saints had a year's supply of food, is a dramatic demonstration of the wise and foolish virgins of which Christ spoke.

 

While I can see some small correlations, I mostly reject this interpretation, and in fact reject this whole genre of gloss. I see no benefit or truth coming from looking to match up this and that modern phenomenon with the signs of the times, which implanted microchips might (or must) be the mark of the beast, and other such things.

 

I can easily believe the figure of 18% when all that is taken into consideration.

 

The point is totally and completely NOT whether the figure is "believable". I could find any figure between 0.0001% and 99% believable, depending on how it was argued. The point is whether the figure is implied in the parable or any other prophetic statement. I say it is not, that it is essentially invented from whole cloth.

[JojoBag]

Thanks for the laughs, Eowyn and Gator!

 

I'll still be interested in hearing what JojoBag meant by the age and not married portions of: "I would even go further in saying that the "faithful" should only include those who hold a temple recommend or qualify for one but for whatever reason, i.e. age, not married, etc., cannot hold one."

 

Sorry.  I wasn't clear.  I'm referring to those waiting for marriage or going on a mission, or those who are converts that have not yet been members long enough to get their endowments.  Teenagers and children who for whatever reason can't go because their bishop deems it too soon.  Members such as these.  I'm not including members who are not full tithe payers or for whatever reason, either personal laziness or transgression, or simply apathy do not and cannot qualify for a recommend.

[Guest]

I'm partially being persuaded by Jojo's word of warning.  I do wonder sometimes if we tend to focus on the wrong things as we seek out our exaltation.

 

How many of us would satisfy the simple commandment of "love the Lord and thy neighbor as thyself"?  Then the parable of the Good Samaritan and it's multiple levels also holds a high bar.

 

I know I easily love my own family.  But to love my enemies?  How easy is it for many conservatives here to have charity for Obama or Clinton (either one)?  How many liberals here have charity for Cruz or Palin?  And can any of us muster up any charity for child molesters or rapists?  I sure can't or won't.

 

Then, the elephant in the room is how many of us have a close enough relationship with the Lord that allows us to truly love Him as a man may love a father or brother?

 

On both counts of love, I'd say I've personally got a long way to go.  And I'm what many would consider a "faithful" saint.  The thing that keeps me going is not thinking about how far I have to go, but knowing I'm at least travelling in the right direction.  I feel that the Samaritan has carried me to the Inn.  And I'm still recovering.  But I'm at the Inn.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Guest

[zil]

Sorry.  I wasn't clear.  I'm referring to those waiting for marriage or going on a mission, or those who are converts that have not yet been members long enough to get their endowments.  Teenagers and children who for whatever reason can't go because their bishop deems it too soon.  Members such as these.  I'm not including members who are not full tithe payers or for whatever reason, either personal laziness or transgression, or simply apathy do not and cannot qualify for a recommend.

OK, but for the record, one doesn't have to be on the verge of getting married or going on a mission to receive their own endowments.  An adult member who is worthy can receive their endowments, even if single, no spouse or mission in sight.  I did.

 

The rest of that makes perfect sense.  Thanks for the clarification.

[zil]

I'm partially being persuaded by Jojo's word of warning.  I do wonder sometimes if we tend to focus on the wrong things as we seek out our exaltation.

 

How many of us would satisfy the simple commandment of "love the Lord and thy neighbor as thyself"?  Then the parable of the Good Samaritan and it's multiple levels also holds a high bar.

 

I know I easily love my own family.  But to love my enemies?  How easy is it for many conservatives here to have charity for Obama or Clinton (either one)?  How many liberals here have charity for Cruz or Palin?  And can any of us muster up any charity for child molesters or rapists?  I sure can't or won't.

 

Then, the elephant in the room is how many of us have a close enough relationship with the Lord that allows us to truly love Him as a man may love a father or brother?

 

On both counts of love, I'd say I've personally got a long way to go.  And I'm what many would consider a "faithful" saint.  The thing that keeps me going is not thinking about how far I have to go, but knowing I'm at least travelling in the right direction.  I feel that the Samaritan has carried me to the Inn.  And I'm still recovering.  But I'm at the Inn.

Warnings are good.  Encouragement is better.  Speculations on how many might "make it" are pointless - you can't scare people into worthiness - though you can scare them to the point of discouragement.

 

The good news is that Jesus Christ will judge 100%.

 

And it is my assertion (not just belief) that the direction in which we are traveling will matter more than how far along the path we are.  Think of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard.  Consider the new convert struggling to progress.

 

Some time back, in some conversation (have forgotten all details other than these), the topic of the Second Coming came up.  Like most of us, I feel entirely unprepared for that event.  Unlike some, I long for the day, despite those feelings.  As I later pondered this, I came to this decision: if I am not burnt to a cinder at the start, I will move toward Christ in that event, no matter how painful doing so is with a full knowledge of all my sins.  I will not hide, no matter how much I want to.  Whatever His judgement is in that day, so be it, but I won't make myself (more) unworthy by hiding from the only One who has any chance of redeeming me.

[JojoBag]

I'm partially being persuaded by Jojo's word of warning.  I do wonder sometimes if we tend to focus on the wrong things as we seek out our exaltation.

 

How many of us would satisfy the simple commandment of "love the Lord and thy neighbor as thyself"?  Then the parable of the Good Samaritan and it's multiple levels also holds a high bar.

 

I know I easily love my own family.  But to love my enemies?  How easy is it for many conservatives here to have charity for Obama or Clinton (either one)?  How many liberals here have charity for Cruz or Palin?  And can any of us muster up any charity for child molesters or rapists?  I sure can't or won't.

 

Then, the elephant in the room is how many of us have a close enough relationship with the Lord that allows us to truly love Him as a man may love a father or brother?

 

On both counts of love, I'd say I've personally got a long way to go.  And I'm what many would consider a "faithful" saint.  The thing that keeps me going is not thinking about how far I have to go, but knowing I'm at least travelling in the right direction.  I feel that the Samaritan has carried me to the Inn.  And I'm still recovering.  But I'm at the Inn.

 

One of the things I do is observe people.  It comes from being a former cop.  In observing them, I primarily listen to what they say and what I hear coming from church members concerns me.  I hear them say that, "I can't be perfect, so God will understand when I make mistakes."  That is true if those "mistakes" are not the product of slothfulness, laziness, ignorance, apathy, or lack of obtaining knowledge.  The mistake must not be because you really aren't trying to do your best and then not correcting the mistake and making an honest effort to never make that same mistake again. 

 

What I see are LDS who are not strict in observing the law of God.  I looked up the words, “strict, strictly, and strictness” in the scriptures. These words appear 21 times in the B of M, D&C and P of GP and all of them refer to strictness in commandments/law and observing them. When I hear church members talk about commandments, what I don't ever hear is that living them strictly is important. I do hear excuses and justifications for not living the law. I hear all about the “spirit of the law,” but it almost always is in context of justifying breaking the law.

 

I think the number one reason for "mistakes" is a lack of knowledge.  According to Joseph Smith, the very first attribute of Heavenly Father is knowledge.  We work out our salvation through gaining knowledge.  Knowledge is power and knowledge is salvation. However, as Elder Bednar said in his book, “Increase in Learning,” that there is a lot of useless knowledge. We need to concentrate on knowledge that will help us to return to our Heavenly Father.

 

We need to gain knowledge regarding what is from God and what is deception by Satan. Elder Andersen said that the foolish virgins were those who were deceived by the craftiness of men. He also said that to keep from being deceived, you must gain a knowledge of how Satan operates. This is in line with what was taught by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and James E. Faust to study evil and it's consequences. If you gain knowledge of what Satan is planning, what organizations is using and how he's implementing his plans, you will be aware of this and be able to spot his deceptions.

[JojoBag]

 

 

 

But the point is not what you (or any of us) can "see". The point is what he said:

 

According to the parables of the “wheat and the tares” and the “ten virgins,” when the “great division” comes, at least one-half of those who regard themselves as “faithful” members of the Lord’s Church will be classified as members of Satan’s organization

 

Note the bolded part. "Those who regard themselves as 'faithful' members" includes many who are classified as inactive, many who do not pay tithing (or full tithing), many who care nothing for the Sabbath day, many who give little effort to building the kingdom of God, and in short, many who simply don't live the commandments but justify themselves in their sin. You are pretty much excluding most or all of these.

 

 

Point taken.

 

 

I see enforced collectivism as a form of slavery, whether it's called communism, socialism, or (as Obama and his ilk put it) "fairness". In this, I think we agree. But you seem to be of the impression that anyone who supports such things to any degree is on the left hand of God and risks his own eternal salvation because of such beliefs. This strikes me as a highly political view of grace and salvation, one that I frankly reject. I have known many good Saints from Europe, from Canada, and yes, even from the US, who hold to socialist principles that I firmly reject, yet who I am convinced are at least as justified before God as I am. I may not be the standard by which people are judged, but if they are on Christ's left hand because they have been indoctrinated with some socialist ideals, I cannot imagine there is any hope for me.

 

It seems you have not read any writings from any of the earlier prophets and apostles.  I have read several times from Pres. Benson, Lee, McKay, Grant, Elders Clark, Moyle, Smoot, Ivins, Wirthlin, Lyman, Andersen, Merrill, and Romney among others, that absolutely condemn socialism in no uncertain terms. Anyone who believes in socialism or accepts the fruits of socialism are deceived.  It cannot be stated any plainer.

 

 

While I can see some small correlations, I mostly reject this interpretation, and in fact reject this whole genre of gloss. I see no benefit or truth coming from looking to match up this and that modern phenomenon with the signs of the times, which implanted microchips might (or must) be the mark of the beast, and other such things.

 

 

The point is totally and completely NOT whether the figure is "believable". I could find any figure between 0.0001% and 99% believable, depending on how it was argued. The point is whether the figure is implied in the parable or any other prophetic statement. I say it is not, that it is essentially invented from whole cloth.

 

What I think I'm seeing is mostly nitpicking while missing my whole point.  All too many LDS are complacent; the "all is well in Zion" syndrome.  If you look at the statistics on pornography, you will see that fully half of all evangelical Christian men and 25% of women have a problem with porn.  I would say that LDS fall within this category.  I read in the Deseret News that 1 in 3 referrals to LDS social services are for porn problems.  I've talked with several bishops and stake presidents and without exception, every single one has agreed with those statistics.  Take those stats and then add in the serious lack of home teaching.  Almost every ward I've ever been in has had dismal home teaching.  I heard our Stake YA rep say that fully 85% of young adults are less active. 

 

I'm not going simply by what Elder Andersen wrote in his books.  I'm going by everything I have observed and the facts that I've gathered.  Based on the totality of the evidence I have observed, and what you pointed out, I would say that the 18% figure I've come up with should be revised up another 10% or so.

[JojoBag]

If Heber C. Kimball said that, he was talking about those pioneers who had crossed the plains.  If only 5% of those guys are getting exalted...good luck to the rest of us.

 

You are making an assumption that anyone who gains the Celestial Kingdom also is exalted.  There are tree degrees within that kingdom.  Elder Kimball's statement was "entering the gates" of the Celestial Kingdom.  You can be a ministering angel or a married couple with family without being exalted.  My personal belief is that there will be very few people who attain exaltation. 

 

This earth will contain those who make the Celestial Kingdom and this earth isn't all that big compared to the number of people who have lived, are now living and will yet live.  I've read estimates of from 15-20 billion people who have lived so far.  If you take that and use a geometric progression, that number would be about 60-80 billion who will yet live between now and the end of this earth.  Elder Kimball speculated that every citizen of that kingdom would get about a 5 acre plot to live on.  That doesn't leave much room.

 

Something else to consider.  The parable of the 10 virgins applies only to the Second Coming of the Savior.  It does not apply to making the Celestial Kingdom.