Membership in the Great and Abominable Church

[Vort]

One of the things I do is observe people.  It comes from being a former cop.  In observing them, I primarily listen to what they say and what I hear coming from church members concerns me.  I hear them say that, "I can't be perfect, so God will understand when I make mistakes."  That is true if those "mistakes" are not the product of slothfulness, laziness, ignorance, apathy, or lack of obtaining knowledge.  The mistake must not be because you really aren't trying to do your best and then not correcting the mistake and making an honest effort to never make that same mistake again. 

 

Then there is no hope for me, as I have already noted.

[Guest]

You are making an assumption that anyone who gains the Celestial Kingdom also is exalted....

Now you are nitpicking and ignoring my whole point, even if it sort of confirms yours.

[zil]

If the point of this thread is this quote from the end of the OP: "As I said, I'm genuinely worried about my status and the status of all members of the Church." (and I'm assuming that's a sincere, caring, "I want to help" concern for other members), then I think we've gone far astray, and I, for one, would prefer we return.  If that wasn't the point, and percentages, acreage, and determination of who's in and who's out were the point, then nevermind the below, and let me know so I can bow out...

 

This earth will contain those who make the Celestial Kingdom and this earth isn't all that big compared to the number of people who have lived, are now living and will yet live.  I've read estimates of from 15-20 billion people who have lived so far.  If you take that and use a geometric progression, that number would be about 60-80 billion who will yet live between now and the end of this earth.  Elder Kimball speculated that every citizen of that kingdom would get about a 5 acre plot to live on.  That doesn't leave much room.

A) You cannot be serious.  Brigham Young once stated (or so it's claimed) that the "earth reeling to and fro as a drunken man" would be caused by the return of all the bits which have been taken away (Eden, the city of Enoch, etc.) and that by the time it's done, this earth would be 10 times its current size.  I don't really care one way or another whether that's true in whole, part, or none.  What I am 100% sure of is that the current dimensions of this planet will have NOTHING to do with the number of people who make it into the celestial kingdom ("Sorry, no room for you, try the previous kingdom." or "Ah, six acres instead of five, hallelujah!").  As if the Lord couldn't make this planet as big or small as He wanted at any time He wanted!

 

Further, if the above were rational, where, pray tell, would all the billions of spirit children of those people who do make it, live?  Or will the celestial kingdom be like a vacation home, and each couple will have their own "nigh to Kolob" -type planet where all the kiddies reside?  Or do celestial couples only get 5-acres' worth of children? ("Mom, he's touching me!")

 

B) Why in the world are you so concerned with how many people there will / will not (might / might not) be in the celestial kingdom?  Or am I totally misunderstanding something?  Or if you aren't, why so many speculative quotes and comments about it?  This and some of your other comments sound to me like passing final judgements on others (sorry, but to me they do).  For example:

 

 

... what I hear coming from church members concerns me.  I hear them say that, "I can't be perfect, so God will understand when I make mistakes."  That is true if those "mistakes" are not the product of slothfulness...

 

When I hear that statement ("I can't be perfect*, so God will understand when I make mistakes." (*"in mortality" assumed)), barring further context, I hear a simple statement of fact.  It does not not "concern me" and I don't feel the need to add a caveat ('...if those "mistakes" are not the product of...').  God understood before we ever made any mistakes, hence the plan of salvation, hence our Savior.  (PS: even if those are honest mistakes, we still need the plan and the Savior, thus making the caveat irrelevant.)

 

And even if you're not making judgements, and these people weren't sincere, what good will come from these lines of discussion?  It's not like we can actually figure out the answers ("Oops, you didn't carry the 2 there, it's actually 4.97 acres.").  Surely there's something better to be had, either on the topic of the celestial kingdom, or on the topic of avoiding membership in the great and abominable church (hereinafter GandAC, not to be confused with Gandalf).

 

Things I concern myself with when I think of the celestial kingdom are generally:

 

1) How do I get myself there?  (not whether there will be room for me, not how many others might show up)

 

2) How can I help others get themselves there? (not whether they deserve to be there, not whether they're making their best effort - as if I could see into their heart and make such a determination!) (PS: go homonyms!)

 

3) Though I know it will be right and required, I so do not want to stand before the bar of God and testify of anyone else's sins.  Instead, I want to beg the Lord for mercy on their behalf.  I know full well that the Lord's judgements will be just, and that each of us will end up in the proper kingdom for us, and that we will be happier there than any other place, even a higher kingdom, because it will be the place we each have chosen to be.  Nonetheless, the thought of having to testify against another, even my enemies, fills my heart with sadness, and I long for them to be as blessed as possible.

 

Surely discussing things such as these (which seem closer to the first OP quote I started with) would be more rewarding than trying to calculate celestial acreage or GandAC membership numbers?

 

(Sorry for the length. I tried to make it shorter and failed.)

[Guest]

I'm afraid I don't know what "GrandAC" means.

[zil]

I'm afraid I don't know what "GrandAC" means.

That's because I was overly verbose: Great and Abominable Church (which is a lot to type).

[Guest]

I was just remembering...

 

I know I've stated part of a personal-second-hand anecdote before -- somewhere on this forum.  But I'll tell the rest of it.

 

A bishop (from many wards ago) and I were talking one day about Mormon Doctrine -- the reasons that prompted the second edition.  He told me that his business sent him to talk to an apostle.  Lo and behold, it turned out to be Elder McConkie.

 

After the business end was concluded, he asked Elder M. about the entry about the "GrandAC".  Why the change?  The first edition accused the Catholic Church of being the GrandAC.

 

Elder M. opened up the Book of Mormon.  He pointed to the passage that said, "There are two churches only..."  He went further and explained why his thoughts written in the first edition were obviously wrong.  Yes, Bruce R. McConkie was openly and freely admitting to this (at the time) young lawyer that probably the greatest scriptorian of our time "obviously" got it wrong.

 

The explanation was that the GrandAC was not complete (Gadianton Robbers as far as I could tell) but it would eventually take over the earth until everyone in the last days would have to take a stand and be either a wheat or a tare.  The tares would eventually side with the GrandAC.  The wheats would side with the Church.

 

I've recognized too many isolated statements to ignore that many of the wheats would be our brothers and sisters of other faiths.  So, don't rule them out by any means.  I also believe that many of the inactives will eventually be pulled back because of the nature of urgency.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Guest