For NeverTrumpers: An appeal to not vote Hillary over Trump

[tesuji]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

A radical pro-lifer I know demands that it's "all or nothing, no compromise". She is so radical she'll refuse to vote for any pro-lifer unless they 100% are pro-life.

I've been guilty of this. I voted for Bush II both times, hoping he would put in SCOTUS judges that would stop gay marriage and roll back Roe v Wade (although very unlikely). Neither happened.

I voted solely according to a couple (very important) social issues, and so helped Bush II be in power - who turned out to be the worst president in decades. And the SCOTUS judges he put in have done insane things, like supporting Citizens United. A complete disaster.

I learned you have to look at the big picture when you vote.

[Guest]

@anatess2

How does anyone know what Trump will do. I'm not sure he himself knows (or even knows what to do).

Every indication so far, though, is that what Trump will do will be bad. The kind of crazy bad we haven't seen since, say, Andrew Jackson.

 

@tesuji

I thought you were staying out of politics. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Eowyn said:

Best Simpsons episode ever.

No, the best one was "Can't Someone Else Do It?"  This was when Homer ran for sanitation commissioner and destroyed the town so bad that they had to open up the Founding Father's "Emergency Plan B" -- which was to pick up the entire town and move 20 miles down the road.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, tesuji said:

I've been guilty of this. I voted for Bush II both times, hoping he would put in SCOTUS judges that would stop gay marriage and roll back Roe v Wade (although very unlikely). Neither happened.

I voted solely according to a couple (very important) social issues, and so helped Bush II be in power - who turned out to be the worst president in decades. And the SCOTUS judges he put in have done insane things, like supporting Citizens United. A complete disaster.

I learned you have to look at the big picture when you vote.

I don't think that radical pro-lifers who demand all or nothing even want abortion truly banned. If it was, they'd lose their jobs. 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

No, the best one was "Can't Someone Else Do It?"  This was when Homer ran for sanitation commissioner and destroyed the town so bad that they had to open up the Founding Father's "Emergency Plan B" -- which was to pick up the entire town and move 20 miles down the road.

 "They let me sign checks with a stamp, Marge! A stamp!" 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

I don't think that radical pro-lifers who demand all or nothing even want abortion truly banned. If it was, they'd lose their jobs. 

Huh??? Jobs?  Most such activists are volunteers.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

Huh??? Jobs?  Most such activists are volunteers.

Wrong. Some are paid speaking fees. 

And even if they wren't paid, they'd lose their sense of self and reason to live. 

[Guest]

I would vote for Trump if he could give me ample evidence that he TRULY INTENDS to

1) Get the UN out of the US and the US out of the UN (if he is serious about the America First foreign policy, then this would be right along that line).
2) He provides the phase-out plan of how he is going to get rid of Obamacare.

So far all I hear is bluster.  And if the Trumpkins want to say that a lot of what he says is just a "show" then how on earth are we to know when he means something or not?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Wrong. Some are paid speaking fees. 

And even if they wren't paid, they'd lose their sense of self and reason to live. 

Boy do you have a stark view of that camp.  I really hope you were joking or at least hyperbolizing.

I'll tell you that one of the most respectable men I've ever known personally was an evangelical man I worked with who held this position.  And he certainly had purpose.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

Boy do you have a stark view of that camp.  I really hope you were joking or at least hyperbolizing.

I'll tell you that one of the most respectable men I've ever known personally was an evangelical man I worked with who held this position.  And he certainly had purpose.

I have a stark view of the radical pro-chociers too, if it makes you feel better. Not joking. I am not saying that every pro-lifer thinks that way. 

The hardcore, uncompromising pro-lifers are so focused on "saving the unborn" that they foolishly are against even restricting abortion (and thus, saving lives) unless it's all or nothing. That, my friend, is delusional. 

[anatess2]

20 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I would vote for Trump if he could give me ample evidence that he TRULY INTENDS to

1) Get the UN out of the US and the US out of the UN (if he is serious about the America First foreign policy, then this would be right along that line).
2) He provides the phase-out plan of how he is going to get rid of Obamacare.

So far all I hear is bluster.  And if the Trumpkins want to say that a lot of what he says is just a "show" then how on earth are we to know when he means something or not?

What would you consider ample evidence?  His Foreign Policy is supported by over 20 years of him saying and writing the exact same thing including his switch to the Democrat Party after it became apparent that Bush was going the way he doesn't want him to go on the War on Terror in 2002.  People like Rush Limbaugh think he was "strategizing" when Trump excoriated Bush's foreign policy, especially Iraq, on one of the earlier debates.  He wasn't strategizing, he hated Bush's foreign policy THAT much.  So, if you like Bush's foreign policy... then I guarantee you, you will not like Trump's.  But then, you wouldn't want Hillary's.

His phase-out plan on Obamacare is already on the floor of the house.  Paul Ryan is simply waiting for Obama to get out of office before he puts it on the floor for a vote.  You must remember that Obamacare is the law of the land.  The only way you can repeal it is if Congress gives the President the law that repeals it so he can sign it.  So yes, the down-votes for House and Senate are as important as putting Trump on the White House.  Hillary, you know for sure, will veto that bill.

 

Edited May 4, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

What would you consider ample evidence?  His Foreign Policy is supported by over 20 years of him saying and writing the exact same thing including his switch to the Democrat Party after it became apparent that Bush was going the way he doesn't want him to go on the War on Terror in 2002.

His phase-out plan on Obamacare is already on the floor of the house.  Paul Ryan is simply waiting for Obama to get out of office before he puts it on the floor for a vote.  You must remember that Obamacare is the law of the land.  The only way you can repeal it is if Congress gives the President the law that repeals it so he can sign it.  So yes, the down-votes are as important as putting Trump on the White House.  Hillary, you know for sure, will veto that bill.

 

Anatess, what you fail to comprehend is that with Trump on the top of the ticket, the odds that the GOP will lose the house and senate are pretty good. 

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Anatess, what you fail to comprehend is that with Trump on the top of the ticket, the odds that the GOP will lose the house and senate are pretty good. 

That's what this thread is about.  To change that.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

1) What would you consider ample evidence?  His Foreign Policy is supported by over 20 years of him saying and writing the exact same thing including his switch to the Democrat Party after it became apparent that Bush was going the way he doesn't want him to go on the War on Terror in 2002.

2) His phase-out plan on Obamacare is already on the floor of the house.  Paul Ryan is simply waiting for Obama to get out of office before he puts it on the floor for a vote.  You must remember that Obamacare is the law of the land.  The only way you can repeal it is if Congress gives the President the law that repeals it so he can sign it.  So yes, the down-votes are as important as putting Trump on the White House.  Hillary, you know for sure, will veto that bill.

1) 20 years of rhetoric.  What does he plan on doing with various treaties already in place?  Does he think he can just forget they exist?  At least a 12 point list of things he will do and how he will do it.  "America First" is a great bumper sticker and a great slogan for a campaign to present a great "show".  But what is the substance?  Bluster without substance was exactly how Obama got elected.  I'm looking for a bit more.

2) "His" phase out plan?  I'm talking about "First, I grant a waiver to all 50 states, every individual, and every business of all types."  The thing YOU have to understand is that the Law already gives the President that power without Congressional approval.  But does he or any Trumpkins even know that?  Wait for Paul Ryan and Congress to pass it?  Yeah, right.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Guest

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Anatess, what you fail to comprehend is that with Trump on the top of the ticket, the odds that the GOP will lose the house and senate are pretty good. 

That's what this thread is about.  To change that.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

That's what this thread is about.  To change that.

You might change a few minds online, sure. Will you change the minds of the thousands of others who feel the same way? No. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

That's what this thread is about.  To change that.

How do you and yjacket feel like that's going?

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I have a stark view of the radical pro-chociers too, if it makes you feel better. Not joking. I am not saying that every pro-lifer thinks that way. 

The hardcore, uncompromising pro-lifers are so focused on "saving the unborn" that they foolishly are against even restricting abortion (and thus, saving lives) unless it's all or nothing. That, my friend, is delusional. 

No, I didn't say all pro-lifers.  I said those that take the "all abortions" position.

I asked him about rape, incest, or when the life or health of the mother was involved.  He said,"You worry about the 99.  I'll worry about the 1."  Well, it would really be between 90 and 95 depending on who you talk to.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

No, I didn't say all pro-lifers.  I said those that take the "all abortions" position.

I asked him about rape, incest, or when the life or health of the mother was involved.  He said,"You worry about the 99.  I'll worry about the 1."  Well, it would really be between 90 and 95 depending on who you talk to.

The radical pro-life cause has demanded "all or nothing" for about 40 years. Sure has accomplished a lot, huh?

[anatess2]

duplicate.

Edited May 4, 2016 by anatess2

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

How do you and yjacket feel like that's going?

It's looking very good with my non-Mormon audience.... most of whom where Cruz supporters.

Social media is bad... but that's all because the majority of the ones I have seen treat politics like a football game - they just want to wear their own jersey.

All my NeverTrump Mormon friends are not budging... a lot of them say - Romney is not endorsing him, we stand by Romney.

Edited May 4, 2016 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

- they just want to wear their own jersey.

Like how Trumpers wear the Trump jersey? Totally agree. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The radical pro-life cause has demanded "all or nothing" for about 40 years. Sure has accomplished a lot, huh?

That really doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.  But I think that's about run its course.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

That really doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.  But I think that's about run its course.

We've been talking about the issue bro, and it's indicative of our bigger topic. When is it time to compromise? 

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You might change a few minds online, sure. Will you change the minds of the thousands of others who feel the same way? No. 

But then, I'm not the only one working this.  I can only work within my sphere of influence.