Earl Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 PersonO The answer and answers is complex as your question.Others may have their own. One mega example as to why requirements are set is The Lucifer rebellion . Here are some things you may already know.This first statement will not be complete but it is a start. From the Bible The Lucifer rebellion destroyed the lives of 1/3 rd of heaven's inhabitants. But there is not much Biblically said as to what took place or how the rebellion affected them who participated in it and why. Isaiah 14.14 I will make my self like the most high. This statement Lucifer made was very damaging.He wanted to over throw the most high and rule in his place. He managed to enlist 1/3 rd of heaven for his rebellion. In heaven it is the utmost concern that we do not harbor the will to rebel.Therefore God requires our loyalty,utmost trust and faith in him.God must recognize this as we in similiar ways recognize that our own children will never become disloyal or untrusting and always have faith in us to lead them.Because we have taught them the truth we normally will not think they will someday rebel when matured. So what really happened? Lucifer became the first atheist. He then enlisted others Because the rebellion also migrated to Earth we can take a look at the humans who lived pre flood era and see what they were doing and saying. KJV Jude 4 " before of old" These men lived pre flood 2 Pe.2.5"old world"these men lived pre flood Jude 4"denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus 2Pe.2.1"denying the Lord" These last two verses do not represent denying as saying something is not true.It means refusing to admit the existence of God They denied God..As it was in heaven so was it here on Earth .The theme of the rebellion was God did not exist. In these two books there is more about false liberty Basically Lucifer and company denied God's existance,attempted a take over of the government of God-2Pe.2.10. Despise government and speak evil of dignities(the most high) This is the why faith is required ,trust is required,loyalty is required and God has to see it in us .He does not want someone who he cannot trust to do his will,or even goof off on the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJehanne Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 Hi! I have a Catholic perspective that I can add to the mix; it includes some things that are similar to what some have been said before, but also expounds a bit! We believe that God is Omnipotent, so in short, His dying on the cross wasn’t necessary at all. This isn’t a contradiction of His nature, because He didn’t need to die on the cross to remain merciful. He could have simply willed it from on high, and we would have all been redeemed. But He willed His death on the cross. As St. Augustine said, "Other possible means were not lacking on God’s part, because all things are equally subject to his power" (On the Trinity 8:10). Why did God choose to die on the cross, then? From a Catholic perspective, I’d follow Augustine’s logic: "For what else could have been so necessary to build up our hope, and to free the minds of mortals despairing because of their mortality, than that God should show us how highly he valued us, and how greatly he loved us? And what could be more clear and evident proof of God’s great love than that the Son of God . . . so undeserving of evil, should bear our evils?" (On the Trinity 8:10). In the Catholic Faith, we’d believe that those principles of Justice and Mercy that were mentioned in the first post find their source in God as His attributes. As someone mentioned, we believe God is Love, as when Jesus said to St. Faustina in the 1930s, “Tell [all people], My daughter, that I am Love and Mercy itself. When a soul approaches Me with trust, I fill it with such graces that it cannot contain them within itself, but radiates them to other souls” (Diary, 1074). “O soul steeped in darkness, do not despair. All is not yet lost. Come and confide in your God, who is love and mercy” (Diary, 1485). And from the Bible, “He who does not love does not know God; for God is love” (1 John 4:8). We’d also say that these principles are self-existent and eternal, because we’d say they are the attributes of God, who is self-existent and eternal. God could never stop being merciful, because He is mercy itself. So, the reason He died on the cross is that He loves us, and wants us to know His love, as much as we can from our limited nature. “God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8). And, because we're creatures of both body and soul, He wanted to give us a physical representation of His love, not just a concept, so that we could better understand. Nothing would be as impactful, as visible, as seeing Our Lord being brutally betrayed, beaten, and murdered, not because He had to, but because He wanted to for our sake. What greater act of love is there than to give up your own life, to give totally of yourself for the ones you love? That's what He's saying by his Crucifixion. “My mercy is greater than your sins and those of the entire world. Who can measure the extent of my goodness? For you I descended from heaven to earth; for you I allowed myself to be nailed to the cross; for you I let my Sacred Heart be pierced with a lance, thus opening wide the source of mercy for you. Come, then, with trust to draw graces from this fountain. I never reject a contrite heart. Your misery has disappeared in the depths of My mercy. Do not argue with me about your wretchedness. You will give me pleasure if you hand over to me all your troubles and griefs. I shall heap upon you the treasures of My grace” (Diary, 1485). “Tell Me all, My child, hide nothing from Me, because My loving Heart, the Heart of your Best Friend, is listening to you” (Diary, 1486). Anyway, that's our Catholic perspective; I hope it was helpful towards what you were looking for! Have a blessed Sunday. mordorbund and person0 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 PersonO Be reminded that these men in 2Pe.2 and Jude were denying God.How would these men know to participate in a rebellion from heaven if these men were not the very same sons of God in Gen.6 where by sons of God would have that knowledge?At that time ,pre flood ,God dropped man's lifespan because of his conduct.And thereafter a flood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 3 hours ago, MaryJehanne said: We’d also say that these principles are self-existent and eternal, because we’d say they are the attributes of God, who is self-existent and eternal. Thank you for your response. I really appreciate your perspective! If I understand your belief correctly, where I personally would say that the laws of justice and mercy exist independently of God (but also as part of Him), you would say they have eternally existed as attributes of God and that He will not contradict Himself or go against His own nature. I agree with you on this! 3 hours ago, MaryJehanne said: He could have simply willed it from on high, and we would have all been redeemed. This is the only part that is slightly confusing to me, because it seems not to match up to the rest, but it could just be my own misunderstanding. Could God just will it and have us all be saved? If that is the case, is He eventually going to do that (even for those who go to Hell)? If not, why will He not just save everyone anyway if He has the ability to do so? See, this may be where our answers differ. I personally would say that I think God does not have the capability to save us without the Atonement of Christ. Because, if He can do that, why wouldn't He? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 4 hours ago, Earl said: This is the why faith is required ,trust is required,loyalty is required and God has to see it in us .He does not want someone who he cannot trust to do his will,or even goof off on the job. Okay, this is actually a pretty good answer about the purpose of life. In essence, I think you are suggesting we are here to prove our loyalty to God. However, that begs the question, why didn't God just create us so that we would all have the personality to be loyal to Him in the first place? Couldn't he have given us the ability to choose, while also creating us so that our personality was like His own, and we would always make the choice? Anyway, I am enjoying your perspective, but even in the context of proving our loyalty, why would God send those who fail to do so to be tormented forever for not being loyal? Why wouldn't he just put them somewhere happy, but just to where they are not with Him and they can't leave the place He puts them? In your opinion, what happens to the wicked after judgement, and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 PersonO Many people ask themselves what is their purpose in life.Why am I here?You have answered your own question.You are here to find out. It is commonly believed that our world was once a perfect paradise. Anything that is perfect cannot migrate to imperfection.What is paradise cannot be anything lesser.If so it never qualified as such therefore never was. God did not create humans as perfect,that is our goal.Remember ,be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.Angels are neither perfect.Consider the 1/3 rd of heaven Humans have the ability to choose.If God made us with a loyal personality we become mechanistic and no ability to choose.As i understand your question.Loyalty is voluntary only. There is judgement of the just and unjust but there is only resurection of the just.Does your belief require that God tortures it's unjust? The book of life only contains the the names of the living.The unjust are removed.If your name is not in it you don't know it,,you are not conscious to experience torture..You have received the second death. And your opinion of what happens to the wicked is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJehanne Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, person0 said: Thank you for your response. I really appreciate your perspective! If I understand your belief correctly, where I personally would say that the laws of justice and mercy exist independently of God (but also as part of Him), you would say they have eternally existed as attributes of God and that He will not contradict Himself or go against His own nature. I agree with you on this! This is the only part that is slightly confusing to me, because it seems not to match up to the rest, but it could just be my own misunderstanding. Could God just will it and have us all be saved? If that is the case, is He eventually going to do that (even for those who go to Hell)? If not, why will He not just save everyone anyway if He has the ability to do so? See, this may be where our answers differ. I personally would say that I think God does not have the capability to save us without the Atonement of Christ. Because, if He can do that, why wouldn't He? For the first part, yes, you understand my belief perfectly! I'm glad you agree. For the second, I'd make a distinction between redemption and salvation. Redemption is the payment of the collective debt of all of mankind's sin, while salvation is what happens when a person gains heaven by their individual acceptance. So, salvation is an opportunity that is only opened by our redemption by Christ. Redemption is not the final act; it needs to be accepted. For those in Hell, in the Catholic tradition, they are only there because they have chosen it in a final act of rejection. To call on Catholic literature again, St. Faustina writes, "Only the soul that wants it will be damned, for God condemns no one" (Diary, 1452). Individuals in Hell have rejected the salvation and love offered by God, preferring their own selves above the selfless, loving relationship God wants to have with them. Hell's primary misery in Catholicism is that it is defined by an absence of God, an unbearable agony that results from being permanently severed from communion with Him. They were redeemed by Christ's death, undergone for them with so much love, but they did not accept his offer of salvation. And in His respect for the free will He gave them, God allows their desire to be separate from Him to be granted. After all He's done is love them, even died for them, can you imagine the pain of accepting their adamant "no" to a relationship with Him? As Christ said to Faustina, "I do not want to punish aching mankind but to heal it, pressing it to My merciful Heart. I use punishment when they force Me to do so; My hand is reluctant to take hold of the sword of justice" (Diary, 1588). So, when I claimed that God could redeem us without the Passion, I did not mean that he would bypass free will to do so! It would have worked much the same as it does now, with the debt to sin being excused, but individuals still needing to make the decision to accept Him, instead of turning away anyway. Christ's sufferings opened the pathway to heaven, where it had been closed before because of the infinite offense perpetrated against God, which could only be repaid by an infinite act from the Infinite Being. But a person still must decide to walk down the open path! Of course, there would be a detriment on our side of things if He hadn't gone the way of the cross! For one, the lack of an impactful, physical representation of God's love for us, enough to die for us, and His example of humility that in his Divinity He took on the form of a creature, a human being, would be lost to us. And being deprived of the Eucharist would be one of the greatest tragedies of all. But these are all things He gave us in His love; we certainly don't have an intrinsic right to them! I hope that clears up what I meant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 personO. you say, "this is actually a pretty good answer" And the others were how? And meby in a later thread and time answer this. There are 5 qualifications I know of that man places on God for God to be the absolute ,real deal God.How does God measure up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, Earl said: you say, "this is actually a pretty good answer" And the others were how? Rule #1 of Asking Questions: Don't ask questions that you don't want to know the answer to. person0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Vort, nice to meet you, I dont understand you . I would like to receive an answer from personO about past answers.Did he study them or just do a fly by on them? I do not find my question offensive. And am I replying to a moderator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Earl said: Many people ask themselves what is their purpose in life.Why am I here?You have answered your own question.You are here to find out. I did not intend to ask you about the purpose of life. Not at this point anyway. I was just pointing out that it seemed you had given your belief about why God sent us here, and it was logical, and also somewhat similar to my belief. 7 minutes ago, Earl said: It is commonly believed that our world was once a perfect paradise. I believe that our world was once in a state of immortality and paradise. 8 minutes ago, Earl said: Anything that is perfect cannot migrate to imperfection.What is paradise cannot be anything lesser.If so it never qualified as such therefore never was. I believe the world did begin in a paradisaical state, and that Adam and Eve were the first people, and that they lived in the Garden of Eden until they partook of the forbidden fruit. 12 minutes ago, Earl said: God did not create humans as perfect . . . There is more than one meaning to the word perfect. I would say that God created man in a state of immortality. Adam's body was not capable of dying until after partaking of the fruit. At the time God created man, His creation was perfect, but that does not mean incapable of sin or of losing immortality. 29 minutes ago, Earl said: If God made us with a loyal personality we become mechanistic and no ability to choose. I disagree. Here is why: Do you believe God has the ability to choose? If God cloned himself, would the clone not have the ability to choose? Wouldn't His clone also be perfect in the same way that God is and always choose righteousness and loyalty? Just because the clone would choose righteousness, does not mean it does not actually have the ability to choose. 38 minutes ago, Earl said: There is judgement of the just and unjust but there is only resurection of the just.Does your belief require that God tortures it's unjust? . . . And your opinion of what happens to the wicked is? The LDS belief is that ultimately almost all of God's children will be saved into a Kingdom of Glory, however, not everyone will necessarily be able to dwell in the presence of God. The only people who will not receive glory are those who openly and knowingly reject it. We believe all will be resurrected, both the just and the unjust. Personally, I believe the only 'torture' will be the 'self torture' that is inherent in knowing you could have done differently, but that you are not in God's presence because of your own choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Earl said: I would like to receive an answer from personO about past answers.Did he study them or just do a fly by on them? I did study your previous answers, however, I did not feel that all of them addressed the specific topics applicable to the discussion and intent of this thread. When I said it was a good answer, it was because what you said about loyalty to God mostly applied to the goal of the thread, because it addresses the idea of the purpose of why God sent us to earth. That was a good starting place to continue the discussion further. I have fully read all of your responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, Earl said: Vort, nice to meet you, I dont understand you . I would like to receive an answer from personO about past answers.Did he study them or just do a fly by on them? I do not find my question offensive. And am I replying to a moderator? Hello, Earl. Nice to meet you. I am no moderator. I took person0's comment about "this is a good question" to be a reflection only of his own interest in exploring the answer to that question, and not some sort of backhanded slap at any questions that had been asked before and that he hadn't said were "good". If someone says, "She's a pretty girl," that doesn't mean that the person thought all the other girls were hideous. My response was a reaction to what I understood your reaction was, which I took to be mistaken. It was supposed to be a humorous comment suggesting that maybe person0 really did think your previous questions were horrible/stupid/irrelevant/whatever bad thing you want to say. It was a gentle poke, meant to evoke some reaction of, "Oh, well, yeah, I guess that kind of compliment probably isn't something I should take offense at." tl;dr -- It was a joke. person0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 Perfection does not need to ponder a choice If God cloned himself there will be two Gods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, Earl said: Perfection does not need to ponder a choice If God cloned himself there will be two Gods Okay. It appears that you do not believe God has the ability to choose. I do believe God has agency, and is able to choose, the fact that He will always choose righteousness and perfection is important, because it means that we can have faith that He can help us to also eventually always choose righteousness and perfection. If you do not believe God has the ability to choose then that also answers the purpose of the thread, and I thank you for your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 personO Well your question was where i broad banded an answer till you became extremely specific since i do not know how much you follow chtistian atonement doctrines It is clear to me that you see the atonement was unnecessary since all will see resurection,as I understand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 personO As I said Perfection does not need to ponder a choice Thank you also for you answer this is a wrap folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 1 hour ago, MaryJehanne said: I hope that clears up what I meant! I really think it does. Just to make sure, here is what I am understanding about your belief: God technically could have saved us without the atonement by forgiving our sins as we repented and accepted Him. The Atonement of Christ was not performed because God needed for it to happen in order to save us, but instead was because mankind would benefit from the example of God's infinite love, by helping us to have faith and believe in Him. Redemption was made for all, and as a result, the only people who will not receive salvation are those who fully reject it of their own free will. If I understand this correctly, the only questions I still have about your perspective are: When will the 'final act of rejection' take place? Is it at the final judgement? Is this event kind of like a second chance, or better said, a final chance to accept Christ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Earl said: It is clear to me that you see the atonement was unnecessary since all will see resurection, as I understand it. I apologize that I must have been unclear. To me the Atonement of Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary. I believe that without it, God would not be capable of saving us (the Atonement is like a tool that is required to complete the job). However, because of Jesus Christ completing the Atonement, it made it possible for all mankind to be saved, and for all mankind to be resurrected. Ultimately, most (but not all) people will receive some degree of salvation. Salvation does not necessarily mean they will live in God's presence. Edited March 26, 2018 by person0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 19 minutes ago, Earl said: It is clear to me that you see the atonement was unnecessary since all will see resurection,as I understand it. Earl, there are two kinds of death, physical and spiritual. All who have lived will see resurrection, or freedom from physical death. Only those who avail themselves of the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ, freely choosing to accept his atonement by following him, will see a complete redemption from spiritual death. person0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
person0 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 28 minutes ago, Earl said: As I said Perfection does not need to ponder a choice Okay, I actually have another question that I think is applicable. If God does not have the ability to choose, how is He different from a computer program, or a machine? Or is He just like those things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 personO The atonement from a christian perspective,not mine, is that it was necessary for ,the short version,to enter heaven once the remission of sin was complete. I believed LDS called themselves christians and since the atonement is a major tenant of christianity I would have never known there was differences. Is God Omniscient-All knowing If we believe God knows all things there will be no choice to make.A choice is based on two or more ,either or When one is Omniscient things are cut and dried, no options necessary,no decision has to be made simply because God knows the outcome in advance . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryJehanne Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, person0 said: I really think it does. Just to make sure, here is what I am understanding about your belief: God technically could have saved us without the atonement by forgiving our sins as we repented and accepted Him. The Atonement of Christ was not performed because God needed for it to happen in order to save us, but instead was because mankind would benefit from the example of God's infinite love, by helping us to have faith and believe in Him. Redemption was made for all, and as a result, the only people who will not receive salvation are those who fully reject it of their own free will. If I understand this correctly, the only questions I still have about your perspective are: When will the 'final act of rejection' take place? Is it at the final judgement? Is this event kind of like a second chance, or better said, a final chance to accept Christ? I'm glad! For the first bullet point: Yes, but there still would have been a necessary, preliminary act, even if that were as simple as a movement of His Will, instead of His Crucifixion. Before Christ's sacrifice, the "gates to heaven" were closed due to sin. Even holy people such as Abraham, Moses, Esther, Adam, and Eve (as the latter two later became!) could not enter heaven until that barrier had been removed by the Atonement. After that, particular, actual sins are forgiven when a person appeals to God's mercy, now that the gates have been opened. (But, to be clear, I'm not subscribing to the belief commonly held by our Protestant brothers and sisters, who claim their initial acceptance of God means they are permanently saved! After accepting God, man still has free will, and can turn his back on Him again.) For the second bullet point: Yes! I'd add that we believe it's also a token of His love, a sign of His intimate, burning, unfathomable love for each individual, so that they not only believe in Him, but love Him and know His eternal love for them. For the third bullet point: Exactly! By the final act of rejection, I'm referring to the sin against the Holy Spirit, which is the last denial of the Mercy of God before the instant of death. Catholics do believe that Earth is the time to decide whether to accept or reject God, so we wouldn't say there's another chance to accept Him after we're dead; the particular judgement will happen immediately after death, and those who have chosen to love Him will rejoice, and those who have chosen to hate Him won't be able to stand being in His presence. It's necessary to specify that this would be the final rejection of God, because people can reject God multiple times in their life (which would be through mortal sin, an act of the will to turn your back on a relationship with God), but as long as they turn to God's mercy, they can return to a state of grace. So, anyone who is alive has not committed this final rejection, and someone who is dead has already made their decision! Edited March 26, 2018 by MaryJehanne person0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 A computer cannot love.A machine cannot love.Neither one can create ,they are at the mercy of a human and neither can love his children Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 This has been a good evening Knowing you are west of me The sun will see me before you tomorrow so ill catch you on your ,as they say ,next post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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