Eternal Intelligences And Spirit Children?

[AnthonyB]

I have read it said by LDS, that intelligences are eternal. That they were never created.

However I have also read that exalted human couples will be able to have spirit children.

So is the LDS eternal scheme....

Eternal Intelligences. We are just intelligneces at this stage. (What does this mean??)

God the Father causes us to be spiritually born. (With maybe the help of Heavenly Mother(s)? Is that definite or speculation?)

Born as spirit children in heaven. So we are intelligences as well as spirits at this point?

Jesus is the first born and somehow acheives the office of God. (In a different way to which God the Father and we could do it?)

Satan and other angels and the rest of us spiritual born.

Is the Holy Spirit spiritually born at this stage too?

Does this take some time or happen almost immediately?

Plan is made for suggested by Jesus and Satan.

Jesus plan accepted. Satan spits his dummy, orchestrates a rebellion and is thrown out of heaven.

Earth formed and Micheal/Adam placed on it.

We are born into physical bodies on earth. Intelligence, spirit and pyscical body

Jesus was born into a physical body.

Jesus died without sin and was ressurected.

Jesus ascended into heaven with a physical body.

If we die before the ressurection we exist as spirit beings again. Intellignece and spirit.

Ressurected into eternal bodies. Intellignece, spirit and resurrected bodies.

Some of whom will by their refinement become worthy of the office of God, that they will be able to do exaclty as he has done on other worlds.

Any mistakes there?

[Annabelli]

I have read it said by LDS, that intelligences are eternal. That they were never created.

What is your understanding of intelligences? Mine in this case would be the ability to think and learn.

However I have also read that exalted human couples will be able to have spirit children.

Are you speculating that there is intercourse in the spiritual world?

So is the LDS eternal scheme....

What is your understanding of scheme? In this case "system" might be an understanding of scheme so put together with eternal to mean God, your question would read "Is the LDS a God System?"

Eternal Intelligences. We are just intelligneces at this stage. (What does this mean??)

Would this Eternal Intelligences be Heavenly Father's Spirit Children?

God the Father causes us to be spiritually born. (With maybe the help of Heavenly Mother(s)? Is that definite or speculation?)

Does the Heavenly Father place the Spirit of the unborn into the mortal woman's womb

Born as spirit children in heaven. So we are intelligences as well as spirits at this point?

At what point?

Jesus is the first born and somehow acheives the office of God. (In a different way to which God the Father and we could do it?)

Jesus is the Son of God but I think that is different from what we learn of "first born" in the Old Testament.

Satan and other angels and the rest of us spiritual born.

That does not make any sense. Could you explain it more?

Is the Holy Spirit spiritually born at this stage too?

What is "this stage?"

Does this take some time or happen almost immediately?

Time as in mortal time or time as in God's time?

Plan is made for suggested by Jesus and Satan.

Jesus plan accepted. Satan spits his dummy, orchestrates a rebellion and womb?is thrown out of heaven.

"The Plan" was made by Heavenly Father.

I don't think that Jesus and Satan were together at the conference table of the Heavenly Father making their case.

Earth formed and Micheal/Adam placed on it.

We are born into physical bodies on earth. Intelligence, spirit and pyscical body

Jesus was born into a physical body.

Jesus died without sin and was ressurected.

Jesus ascended into heaven with a physical body.

If we die before the ressurection we exist as spirit beings again. Intellignece and spirit.

Is this why we have Baptisims for the Dead (or those who lived and died before the ressurection)?

Ressurected into eternal bodies. Intellignece, spirit and resurrected bodies.

Some of whom will by their refinement become worthy of the office of God, that they will be able to do exaclty as he has done on other worlds.

This sound like a pyrmid plan. I don't think so.

Any mistakes there?

Your wording of matters may differ from mine and I think that you have some mistakes that need to be addressed.

quote]

[AnthonyB]

Annabelli,

I’m not LDS (or Mormon), although I come from a tradition which shares some history and a small amount of common belief and practice. (That is largely Sidney Rignon’s fault!) I was trying to put am the grand narrative of God’s plan or scheme from an LDS perspective to help me grasp what it is LDS are saying. I’m not trying to tell you what you believe but trying to state it so I understand. Thank for your suggestions, I’ll attempt to answer you, keeping in mind that when I say anything about the LDS, it comes from a non-LDS and from forum answers I’ve seen. I am more than happy to be corrected (or be smacked around the head for presumption.) (The best way to learn something is to attempt to explain it to someone else)

I think that some of what LDS mean by intelligences is what other people might mean by spirit. For me spirit means something that is aware, capable of learning and interacting, an eternal entity in God’s case. If you take it that spirit is passed form God to us, as in a flame passing fire, in a way spirit is never created but passed from eternal God to us. So you could say are spirit’s existed eternally.

As for “bonking” in heaven, I have not yet seen any LDS say that is the case but some have intimated it. If we are going to have fully physical bodies (I agree) and sexual distinctions like marriage are to continue (I don’t agree), then maybe. I’m not sure your church has an official stance on how spirit kids are made, but it seems to be that you teach that in the future you need a eternally married Father and Mother to do it. I can think of lots of other ways of making it happen but I’m not speculating.

Scheme was just meaning the way things worked out in a brief point story. I was just saying is this: How do LDS think things have and will happen, over the arc of history?

Eternal Intelligences: My understanding was that before you were born as spirit kids, LDS believe we existed as intelligences, since intelligences can’t be created.

God the Father does IMO place the Spirit of the unborn into mortal woman’s womb. Some people believe that it God causes it to come from the spirits of the child’s parents. I think God passes it directly to us. In the same manner we receive the spirit of God when we are born again.

When using the term point or stage I mean at that stage in story of things that have occurred and will occur. So when I ask “are we intelligences as well as spirits at this point?” I mean when we are created/born as spirit kids, are we made up of intelligence and spirit? I’m trying to understand what you believe are the components we are made up of at the different stages of our existence.

As for God’s “plan” of redemption. My understanding was that Jesus and Satan had differing plans and that Jesus one was the one the Father used. Is that wrong?

I thought LDS baptize for the dead because people who have died without the sacrament of baptism require it, it is a blessing from God which they have not undertaken. Some acts can only be done during mortal life under the proper spiritual authority and thus proxies can fulfill the sacrament for those who had passed on without it, so they are blessed by God.

As for exaltation in the celestial kingdom, if my description sounded like a pyramid scheme, how would describe it?

[a-train]

Little is known on the origin or history of intelligences other than that they are eternal and uncreated.

The process by which spiritual birth to the Father occurred is entirely un-revealed, all we know is that we are spirit children of Heavenly Parents.

The Saviour's pre-mortal selection as such and the subsequent fall of Satan for his displeasure in this took place in the Grand Counsel in Heaven. See Abraham 3:22-28.

The origin and destiny of the Holy Spirit is entirely un-revealed. We know not if He can be considered a spirit child of the Father or otherwise. It is simply not revealed.

The Plan of Salvation unfolded in the Grand Counsel was the Father's, the issue between the Saviour and the Devil was not a difference of plans, but in the designation of who would implement the plan and how.

The precise work that lies before those who sit with the Saviour in His throne is essentially un-reaveled. 'Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.' (1 Cor. 2:9)

Try to imagine if Adam and Eve had never fallen and all their children, grand-children, and so forth were alive on this earth still in its paradisical pre-fallen state. This is the image of the Celestialized Earth and the life of the Celestial Beings thereon. 'Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.' (Matt 5:5)

The Atonement of Christ will completely redeem Adam and Eve and all their posterity who so come unto Christ from the fall. The Earth and Adam will be completely redeemed to their pre-fallen state and none of what Adam was given by God in the Garden of Eden will remain un-redeemed including his marriage.

-a-train

[Annabelli]

Try to imagine if Adam and Eve had never fallen and all their children, grand-children, and so forth were alive on this earth still in its paradisical pre-fallen state. This is the image of the Celestialized Earth and the life of the Celestial Beings thereon. 'Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.' (Matt 5:5)

The Atonement of Christ will completely redeem Adam and Eve and all their posterity who so come unto Christ from the fall. The Earth and Adam will be completely redeemed to their pre-fallen state and none of what Adam was given by God in the Garden of Eden will remain un-redeemed including his marriage.

-a-train

That is beautifully worded a-train but what does that exactly mean?

[Traveler]

Jesus is the first born and somehow acheives the office of God. (In a different way to which God the Father and we could do it?)

Satan and other angels and the rest of us spiritual born.

There are some problems with your understanding of scripture. Where in scripture is there a reference to Satan as an angel. The only place in scripture that I know of where Satan is given a title - that title is the title of g-d or as the scriptures say "G-d of this world". It would appear that what is included in scripture as g-d is not what is included as such in your ming.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

The problem only problem with understanding scripture Traveler, is yours. Reread the references about Satan/Lucifer. It's clear.

[Traveler]

The problem only problem with understanding scripture Traveler, is yours. Reread the references about Satan/Lucifer. It's clear.

Since you have it clear please provide the scripture that indicates that Satan/lucifer is an angel. I stated that I know of no such scripture. Since you know the scriptures better than me I would assume that rather than just give empty opinion that you would provide a scripture that would put me in my place.

Perhaps you would tell us - what is the difference between that which is angel and that which is G-d. Since the scriptures are very clear on this point.

The Traveler

[a-train]

Sheesh fellers. What wint and bit ya? Settle on down now.

Here are some verses with some various mentions of old scratch and his A.K.A.s:

Serpent - Gen. 3:1

Lucifer - Isa. 14:12

Devourer - Mal. 3:11

Prince of the Devils - Matt. 9:34

Beelzebub, the chief of the devils - Luk. 11:15

Prince of this world - John. 14:30

God of this world - 2 Cor. 4:4

Angel which kept not the first estate - Jude 1:6

Dragon - Rev. 12-7

The Accuser - Rev. 12:10

The Adversary - 1 Nephi 15:24

Father of Lies - 2 Nephi 2:18

Author of all sin - Hel. 6:30

Evil One - Hel. 8:28

Father of Contention - 3 Nephi 11:29

Wicked One - D&C 93:39

There are more, but I figure that's a decent little splash on the topic.

-a-train

[a-train]

<div class='quotemain'>

Try to imagine if Adam and Eve had never fallen and all their children, grand-children, and so forth were alive on this earth still in its paradisical pre-fallen state. This is the image of the Celestialized Earth and the life of the Celestial Beings thereon. 'Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.' (Matt 5:5)

The Atonement of Christ will completely redeem Adam and Eve and all their posterity who so come unto Christ from the fall. The Earth and Adam will be completely redeemed to their pre-fallen state and none of what Adam was given by God in the Garden of Eden will remain un-redeemed including his marriage.

-a-train

That is beautifully worded a-train but what does that exactly mean?

It means the ultimate design of God is the endurance of the family He created in the first creation. I personally find it difficult to see how the Bible can be reconciled to any notion that would suggest Adam and Eve will not be redeemed to one another. The assertion that the Redemptive Power of the LORD will raise them from the dead, put them in the Presence of God, and Redeem them from the fall, but NOT redeem them in their God-given marriage seems as though the Redemption would be incomplete.

-a-train

[Dr T]

Thanks for those A-Train. I figured you would ask, Traveler. It doesn't take an advanced degree or "a deep reading" to understand such things about Satan. If, in your advanced understanding of scripture, you are unable to see the plain references, then again, the problem in understanding is yours. That's all I was saying. Reread like I said.

[Traveler]

Thanks for those A-Train. I figured you would ask, Traveler. It doesn't take an advanced degree or "a deep reading" to understand such things about Satan. If, in your advanced understanding of scripture, you are unable to see the plain references, then again, the problem in understanding is yours. That's all I was saying. Reread like I said.

Okay I see a nice list of scriptures as follows

Serpent - Gen. 3:1

Lucifer - Isa. 14:12

Devourer - Mal. 3:11

Prince of the Devils - Matt. 9:34

Beelzebub, the chief of the devils - Luk. 11:15

Prince of this world - John. 14:30

God of this world - 2 Cor. 4:4

Angel which kept not the first estate - Jude 1:6

Dragon - Rev. 12-7

The Accuser - Rev. 12:10

The Adversary - 1 Nephi 15:24

Father of Lies - 2 Nephi 2:18

Author of all sin - Hel. 6:30

Evil One - Hel. 8:28

Father of Contention - 3 Nephi 11:29

Wicked One - D&C 93:39

None identify Satan as an Angel - Jude talks about fallen angels but does not list Satan among them but indicated they were subject to him.

Please someone show me a scripture that says Satan is or was an angel. I agree that anyone can speculate all they want about scriptures - therefor I respectfully ask my friend T. What scripture says without any doubt so we can know this is a true doctrine that satan is an angel

2Cor 4:4 says he is a G-d - not an angel A G-d with fallen angels in his charge.

I know he has many titles given is scripture but I do not find one that gives him a title of angel.

If someone says that something is scripture and a doctrine according to the Bible - I would think they know a scripture to back them up. WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS SATAN IS AN ANGEL???

Just one scripture. Not speculation and everybody knows and all that stuff. One Bible Scripture.

Would every body please answer this call - if you know the scripture provide it - if you can't find one say that you can't find one. This is not difficult. Don't say you think there is one or there ought to be one - just provide one. I put this forth especially to anyone that says the Bible is canon. Realizing what canon means. This is doctrine that is taught in much of Christianity. If it is true it is not in the Bible and this proves that the Bible cannot be canon if it is not true - then any one saying it is true is teaching heresy.

Thanks for the interest

The Traveler

[Dr T]

This is doctrine that is taught in much of Christianity. If it is true it is not in the Bible and this proves that the Bible cannot be canon if it is not true - then any one saying it is true is teaching heresy.

Not quite sure what you are saying in the above quote sir. Maybe we can come back to this one at a later time. I'm not sure if you are saying that the Bible is not the canon or that Satan is a fallen angel. It looks like you are saying if he is not, then the Bible can't be true. That is what's confusing me. Maybe we can come back to that idea if that is what you are saying.

[drjme]

As for “bonking” in heaven, I have not yet seen any LDS say that is the case but some have intimated it. If we are going to have fully physical bodies (I agree) and sexual distinctions like marriage are to continue (I don’t agree), then maybe.

It's an interesting point to ask the question were Adam and Eve married before or after the fall?

Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

If the fall had never happened, how long would their marriage have lasted for? Death was bought on after the fall. IF they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would die as God does not lie:

Gen 2:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

The only way they could die in the garden of Eden is to eat the forbidden fruit. Therefore their marriage would have been eternal. just something to think about in relation to eternal marriage.

marriage is more than a sexual distinction. It is a sacred 'ordinance' instituted by God for the union of man and woman that has degenerated into something of little importance and meaning for people these days.

Do not confuse marriage as solely for sexual gratification.

I’m not sure your church has an official stance on how spirit kids are made

There is no official church stance. whether or not God would reveal this to people as doctrine could be questioned as the majority can't even believe how we are created by him physically.

How do LDS think things have and will happen, over the arc of history?

what 'things'?

Eternal Intelligences: My understanding was that before you were born as spirit kids, LDS believe we existed as intelligences, since intelligences can’t be created.

D&C29:36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

Revelations 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Before we came to earth we were in the preexistence in heaven. Agency (as read above in D&C) indicates intelligence. a third of the host of heaven chose to follow the adversary and were cast out of heaven.

The 'host' are spirits with intelligence to decide what path they wanted to take.

When using the term point or stage I mean at that stage in story of things that have occurred and will occur. So when I ask “are we intelligences as well as spirits at this point?” I mean when we are created/born as spirit kids, are we made up of intelligence and spirit? I’m trying to understand what you believe are the components we are made up of at the different stages of our existence.

“There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.” (D&C 131:7-8)

I suppose you could say God does not create something from nothing, he is not a magician. It is believed everything exists as 'matter' to be organized or reorganized. I also suppose you could say that anything that obeys God (having agency) even matter denotes intelligence through obedience. which could lead us to say that if all this were the case we existed as intelligence or spirit matter prior to being 'organized' or created as spirits and so are eternal.

God the Father does IMO place the Spirit of the unborn into mortal woman’s womb. Some people believe that it God causes it to come from the spirits of the child’s parents. I think God passes it directly to us. In the same manner we receive the spirit of God when we are born again.

We believe the spirit of every person is completely individual, created or 'organized' by God prior to coming to earth. not a separation of part of the parents spirit if thats what you were implying.

As for God’s “plan” of redemption. My understanding was that Jesus and Satan had differing plans and that Jesus one was the one the Father used. Is that wrong?

No thats correct somewhat.

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the cagency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

Hope that answers or helps towards a few of the questions.

[a-train]

Traveler,

Now I know you want a Bible verse, but Lehi said: 'according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God. And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. ' (2 Nephi 2:17-18)

I'm not certain I know of a Bible verse that explicit.

Perhaps the sectarians believe some non-Biblical Mormon doctrine after all.

-a-train

[Dr T]

There is no verse that specifically says "Satan was an angel." It is clear though that he fell from heaven and was an angel when reading all about him. Put it all together . I can see where your angelology is probably different from mine Traveler, I wouldn't expect it to be any other way. You can continue to believe that he was not an angel and it will not be any skin off my back.

[AnthonyB]

Traveler,

Now I know you want a Bible verse, but Lehi said: 'according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God. And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. ' (2 Nephi 2:17-18)

I'm not certain I know of a Bible verse that explicit.

Perhaps the sectarians believe some non-Biblical Mormon doctrine after all.

-a-train

a-train,

“Sectarian” is a pejorative term. I think “traditional Christian” or even Lewis’ term “mere Christians” would be a nicer way of addressing us as a group. (That is people following the “traditional” Christian positions.) I have used LDS Christians or LDS, if you have preference for another term that wouldn’t be loaded, I will comply.

The bible is primarily the story between the people he placed on earth and Himself.

Therefore what is says about angles is limited. The traditional view of Satan is based on implied doctrines from a number of verses not on a specific verse.

I do share a number of doctrines with LDS that are implied from other doctrines but not necessarily directly stated in the bible, for which you have specific revelations. An example is the idea that children who have not reached an age of understanding are accepted by God. My explanation for that would be that Sidney Rignon and the believers from Kirtland introduced ideas and practices from the group from which they came into the LDS. You would believe that God has confrimed some things to be true by further revelation.

I would still really like one of the LDS poster to take my original time line and transform it into a point form explanation of the LDS main points of the story as you see it.

[a-train]

Anthony B,

Hey, sorry about the 'sectarians' thing. It was a joke.

OK, now as far as the timeline goes: Understand that this isn't a timeline. We refer to it as the Plan of Salvation, but individuals will be in different stages at any given point in time and various individuals will undergo subtle differences in their advancement.

We understand extremely little about our pre-mortal history either collectively or individually. Yes, we are eternal intelligences that at some point were born spiritually to God the Father.

After there living with Him and receiving lessons therefrom, He called the Grand Council.

There, the Saviour (who is also known as the First Born in the spirit) was chosen as such and Satan fell taking a certain portion of the children of our Father in Heaven with him.

Each of us who kept our first estate (meaning we didn't fall with Satan) went forward with the plan and are among those spirits who would be born on this earth.

Michael, the archangel obtained a body and he and his wife Eve fell through transgression, by way of temptation of Satan.

We have been born physically in the course of the generations of mankind that have resulted.

We come into this temporal world through birth and leave at death.

At death we remain here on the earth, but are disembodied.

Eventually we will be resurrected.

After the resurrection we will be judged at the judgement bar of Christ. Adam will be on that bar.

We will, according to our performance, be awarded a place in a kingdom of God.

There are three main divisions among the various kingdoms, Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. Those in the Celestial will be in the Presence of the Father. The Terrestrial will be able to be in the Presence of the Saviour, but not the Father. Those of the Telestial will have the Presence of the Holy Ghost, but not the Father or Jesus Christ.

This earth is currently in a Telestial state, meaning we have the availability of the gift of the Holy Ghost and receive our ministration from God from heavenly messengers. We do not have the glorified Saviour in our midst. After His Second Coming, the Saviour will be here and the earth will be Terrestrialized if you will. Ultimately, it will be Celestialized.

As a result, those whose final residence will be outside of the Celestial Kingdom will not be here on this earth. Where they will be has not been revealed.

If you need sources for any of this, let me know.

-a-train

[AnthonyB]

A-train,

Thank you for your reply. I apprecaite your effort, obviously some of my questions go into the we're not entirely sure category. (eg What do you mean by eternal intellignces?)

I hadn't been offended by the word "sectarian". I was just pointing out that it was a negative descriptor and I think we all should avoid being purposefully negative to others.

It is also as an idea is slightly outdated. Both our forebears in their movements, used it against other Christians during the period when our movements were being founded. At the time most Christian groups were parochial, seeing their narrow group as encompasing the kingdom and looking very suspiciously (if not with hostilty) at any other group. Divisions over almost trivial doctrines and practices abounded. In the present day most Christians accept that the kingdom is bigger than their group and Jesus will accept people even if they have some differences. The lack of unity in the body of Christ is a sin, but I serve a redeeming God, who has transformed our human failing into a wonderous array of practices and traditions from which I can draw glimpses of different aspects of Him whom I serve. I can enjoy the craftmanship of the Anglican liturgy, the exuberance of pentecostal worship, the melodies of the Salvation Army, the solemnity of the Christian Brethren Lord's table and many more differing expressions and cultural outpourings to my God. Knowing that although we may not share every belief or practice in common, we share one Lord, one God, one faith, and in the renewed world we will be one redeemed people.

Did the "Grand Council" occurr before the creation(moulding) of the heavens and the earth (Before the temporal universe began)?

Doesn't the command to be "fruitful" occurr before the fall?

"temporal world" would you say that eternity does not by neccessity follow time dimension that we experience here?

You said we "enter this world through birth"? Are the unborn not people?

I've heard it said that you believe that "spirit" is finer or purer matter, is their any reason you couldn't believe it to be matter from a different dimension?

[a-train]

The Grand Council occured before the physical creation of this earth. Abraham 3 includes this statement about what took place in the Grand Council: 'And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;' (Abraham 3:24, emphasis mine) As you can see, part of the discussion in that Council was the future creation of the earth.

The command to be frutifull and multiply came before the fall, YES. Genesis 1:28.

The time dimension we experience here is NOT part of the eternal experience in my opinion. However, you must understand that we are on the fringe of revealed doctrine here. We know very little about what it is like outside this time-bound existance.

Joseph Smith said: 'The great Jehovah contemplated the whole of the events connected with the earth, pertaining to the plan of salvation, before it rolled into existence, or ever "the morning stars sang together" for joy; the past, the present, and the future were and are, with Him, one eternal "now;" He knew of the fall of Adam, the iniquities of the antediluvians, of the depth of iniquity that would be connected with the human family, their weakness and strength, their power and glory, apostasies, their crimes, their righteousness and iniquity; He comprehended the fall of man, and his redemption; He knew the plan of salvation and pointed it out; He was acquainted with the situation of all nations and with their destiny; He ordered all things according to the council of His own will; He knows the situation of both the living and the dead, and has made ample provision for their redemption, according to their several circumstances, and the laws of the kingdom of God, whether in this world, or in the world to come.' (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 220)

The unborn ARE people, or beings capable of thought and expression, feeling and agency. The LDS belief in a pre-mortal, spiritual existance of man upholds that idea. In fact, the LDS position is viewed by us to attribute even more to the unborn than those who do not share our understanding of pre-mortal existance.

Perhaps it would be too specific to say that we come here by the birth itself and alone. We come here by birth and all the actions associated therewith. If you are wondering whether a spirit is designated to a body before birth and wondering what happens to such a spirit in the case of mis-carriage, still-birth, abortion and so forth, definite answers are not had among us that I can positively say come from the LORD by revelation.

We simply acknowledge the will and hand of God and know that He will sort out these matters according to His will and knowledge in His own time. Will these spirits be born to other bodies? Will they be born during the Millennial Reign of Christ? Will they simply rise in the resurrection, if so as adults or babes? The only thing we can say definitely is that if they desire to obtain a body, they will. We can't say when or how, but they will. As a note, we do not do work for the dead in the temple for any babies not born. I'm uncertain we know all the details why.

There are many sermons from Joseph Smith and other Prophets in the latter-days declaring the spirit world to be 'physical', but of a finer or purer material unavailable to our senses. But the most official source on the subject is Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8: 'There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.'

Good questions.

God Bless

-a-train

[mattkc]

i don't know if you have found any knew information on this subject...but I have found alot of truth and clearity...and it is simple to my eyes...we could chat if you'd like