Paradise Lost is subversive!

[Sunday21]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/arab-muslims-love-paradise-lost-leaders-hate-revolutionary

Paradise Lost is subversive! 

But only @MormonGator understands it! Obviously those Muslims are way smarter than me! If only there was a dick and Jane version of these classics.

[Guest]

Satan isn't mentioned in Genesis?  Since when?  So, who tempted Adam and Eve?

I think a truly astute Muslim would see something much more close to home if they read it with Christian eyes.

[Sunday21]

I know very little about Christianity (former atheist raised atheist) but I was really surprised when I was learning the Lds faith about the similarities between PL and Lds faith. Do other branches of Christianity believe that Satan was ejected from heaven due to pride? 

I am sure that the answer is trivially obvious to most of you!

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Do other branches of Christianity believe that Satan was ejected from heaven due to pride?

Most branches of Christianity interpret Isaiah's words about the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14:12 as alluding to Satan:

Quote

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

So their inference, like that of the Latter-day Saints, is that the king was being compared with Satan, the erstwhile Lucifer, who had fallen (or been cast out) from heaven because of overweening ambition. We Latter-day Saints have quite a bit more on these specifics, of course, as revealed in the books found in what we now call the Pearl of Great Price.

[Blueskye2]

27 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I know very little about Christianity (former atheist raised atheist) but I was really surprised when I was learning the Lds faith about the similarities between PL and Lds faith. Do other branches of Christianity believe that Satan was ejected from heaven due to pride? 

I am sure that the answer is trivially obvious to most of you!

Isaiah 14:12–14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18 explain why Satan was cast out of heaven

Delving deeper, the threefold temptation seen multiple times in the Bible are described by John as the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16). James identifies them as “earthly, sensual, devilish” (James 3:15).

Satan exhibits all three, but is punctuated in all accounts by "pride of life", which in its root is the temptation to raise oneself above God (various forms of this corruption are found throughout the Bible).

Edited September 1, 2017 by Blueskye2

[Blueskye2]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

read it with Christian eyes.

Debatable that it is a Christian writing.   I see it more as resistance writing, using Christian themes.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Blueskye2 said:

Debatable that it is a Christian writing.   I see it more as resistance writing, using Christian themes.

Wasn't my point.  I was thinking that if a Christian makes certain interpretations about the story based on the biases of Christianity...

[Guest MormonGator]

7 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/arab-muslims-love-paradise-lost-leaders-hate-revolutionary

Paradise Lost is subversive! 

But only @MormonGator understands it! Obviously those Muslims are way smarter than me! If only there was a dick and Jane version of these classics.

I "understand" it the best I can @Sunday21. Remember, my college degree is in English so I had to read it. Several times. Several, several times. And I've read a TON of criticism about the poem too. Do I understand it? Sort of. Like all works of art it's open to several types of interpretation. 

The only thing I'll say with certainty is that you need to have a basic grasp of the English Civil War to understand the poem. If you don't know it's historical context, don't bother saying anything about it. It's a religious poem with heavy political content. Could Paradise Lost be more about the lost paradise of what could have been during the commonwealth of England? Was Milton devastated over his blindness and lost of his wife? Or was it strictly a religious poem trying to "justify the ways of God to man?"

And if you ever meet someone who says they understand the poem fully and know exactly what it's about, kindly tell them to stop talking. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by MormonGator

[seashmore]

@MormonGator any thoughts on Paradise Rega

18 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/arab-muslims-love-paradise-lost-leaders-hate-revolutionary

Paradise Lost is subversive! 

But only @MormonGator understands it! Obviously those Muslims are way smarter than me! If only there was a dick and Jane version of these classics.

Paradise Lost is definitely intense. I enjoy reading it, but I struggle to keep track of what's happening with all of the poetic descriptions. Also, my reading retention is horrible in general, but formats like drama and poetry are worst of all. Like @MormonGator I  was an English major and read Paradise Lost in college. It wasn't until after that I read Paradise Regained, which felt a little forced to me. Like Milton was all, "Fine. I'll write about it."

I do love the final lines of PL, though. 

Quote

The World was all before them, where to choose

Their place of rest, and Providence their guide:

They hand in hand with wand'ring steps and slow,

Through Eden took their solitary way.

Does that not sound like it belongs on a wedding announcement or program?

[Snigmorder]

According to Alma, the Islamic God doesn't exist.

[Sunday21]

4 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

According to Alma, the Islamic God doesn't exist.

I kinda assumed that all other versions of God were half remembered truths mingled with the philosophies of men. Do you feel differently?

[Guest MormonGator]

8 hours ago, seashmore said:

@MormonGator any thoughts on Paradise Rega

 Paradise Regained is much more straightforward and less interesting than Paradise Lost. No, that's not to say it isn't a good poem or a beautiful one-it's just not as interesting Paradise Lost. You might want to start there actually. 

[Snigmorder]

8 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I kinda assumed that all other versions of God were half remembered truths mingled with the philosophies of men. Do you feel differently?

According to Alma, in chapter 42, the penalties for breaking the law cannot be invalidated or made void. If God says such and such will happen when you break the law, then such and such will happen, guaranteed, ineffable and immovable. If this was not the case, God would cease to be God. (I tend to read "God would cease to be God" as He would have no authority, like a parent who doesn't enforce rules, but He would still exist. However in this case I'm using a different way which I have seen other people use. That Alma is exaggerating to demonstrate the absolute impossibility of God NOT perfectly enforcing penalties.)

But it is God's intention that men repent, and this repentance cannot take place unless the penalties are justly satisfied, or else the law has no purpose and is void. These are real laws don't you know.

This atonement is brought about by God's Son in the flesh. 

The problem for Islam comes when they tell you that God does not need a son to forgive sin because God simply needs to say a thing and it is done.

This is the equivalent of a child deliberately smashing the prized antique vase with a hammer, and the parent literally forgetting about the whole thing the very instant the child says "sorry." Was there ever really a real risk of penalty and consequence? I would say there was not. Therefore, the Islamic God does not exist because his laws do not exist.