Answering the great Mystery who God created man, and his role in this vast universe

[zlarry123]

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I am in the process of thinking your answers through, but I thought I would add a new wrinkle into the mix. There is a common phrase used in the KJV Bible that relates to the questions I asked. It is: "....gave up the Ghost."  This phrase is used mostly in the Old Testament, but it is also used in reference to Christ's death in Mark 15:37,39.

ghost ekpneo  NT:1606 ekpneo (ek-pneh'-o); from NT:1537 and NT:4154; to expire: Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.

Literally to die

The correct translation

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. NKJV

Mark 15:37" Jesus breathed his last". NIV

Mark 15:37 "breathed His last" NASU

Is this true or a mock on the Mormon church

"Mormons also teach that both the Father and the Son are men with bodies of flesh and bone (Doctrine & Covenants 132:20; Articles of Faith, p 38); as two separate people, the Father and the Son cannot be considered “one"

 "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."

This is a new one on me, can you fill me in. It seem like the mainstream Christianity trinity taking on a different form. The doctrine of the trinity came about much earlier then the 18th  century, and Christian ran with it. 

"Mormons today believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate persons who together constitute “the Godhead”. This concept of God cannot be found in the first edition of the Book of Mormon, however. The idea of God in the Book of Mormon closely resembles the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity."

This concept of God cannot be found in the first edition of the Book of Mormon,

Why is that?

 

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

This concept of God cannot be found in the first edition of the Book of Mormon,

Why is that?

It doesn't?  Hmm.  That's funny.  Oh, wait...

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And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one.

2 Ne 28:10

So we as humans shall be even as Jesus.  Then he says in parallel structure that He  is even as the Father.  Then says that He and the Father are one.  We're not Buddhists.  We don't all become one Nirvana.  Just as mortals are separate and distinct from Jesus, so is He from the Father.  The oneness is just as Mormons state it is.  It is one in purpose and the desire to fulfill all righteousness.

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And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

3 Ne 19:23

Same.  I never understood any Trinitarian notion of the Son praying to the Father as being anything other than one praying to oneself.  That never made sense to me.  I'm sorry if I offend any Trinitarians in saying this.  But I simply never got over that hurdle.

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not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem

3 Ne 15:14

So, if they are literally one like the Trinity, then what the heck does He mean that He commands Himself or not?

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But he truly gave unto them bread to eat, and also wine to drink. And he said unto them: He that eateth this bread eateth of my body to his soul; and he that drinketh of this wine drinketh of my blood to his soul; and his soul shall never hunger nor thirst, but shall be filled. But he truly gave unto them bread to eat, and also wine to drink. And he said unto them: He that eateth this bread eateth of my body to his soul; and he that drinketh of this wine drinketh of my blood to his soul; and his soul shall never hunger nor thirst, but shall be filled. Now, when the multitude had all eaten and drunk, behold, they were filled with the Spirit; and they did cry out with one voice, and gave glory to Jesus, whom they both saw and heard.

3 Ne 20:7-9

So, Jesus was administering the sacrament and only during the process were they filled with the Holy Ghost.  Filled with, and at the same time saw and heard.  Sound pretty separate to me.  Separate, yet working together like a team one might say.

3 Ne 11 has several statement that clearly state they are separate beings.  Passages too long to quote.

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And may the grace of God the Father, whose throne is high in the heavens, and our Lord Jesus Christ, who sitteth on the right hand of his power, until all things shall become subject unto him, be, and abide with you forever. Amen.

Moroni 9:26

 So, The Father and Son stand next to one another... sounds pretty separate to me.

Doesn't exist in the 1st edition?  You may want to get your information from places OTHER than anti-Mormon websites (which is where your quotes came from).

Edited December 9, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, zlarry123 said:

ghost ekpneo  NT:1606 ekpneo (ek-pneh'-o); from NT:1537 and NT:4154; to expire: Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.

Literally to die

The correct translation

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. NKJV

Mark 15:37" Jesus breathed his last". NIV

Mark 15:37 "breathed His last" NASU

Is this true or a mock on the Mormon church

I'm not sure what you mean by this last statement.  Yes, it was a statement, not a question.  But your grammar is hard to follow.  I take it that either you're making a lot of typos or English is not your first language.

"Breath" and "Spirit" both come from similar roots.  So, it is quite obvious where these alternate translations come from.  And as translations go, they may be considered accurate in their own way.  But any translation from ancient Greek or Hebrew to modern English is to a large part a matter of opinion.  And that opinion will be colored by the translator's own background and beliefs.

In the end, it makes no difference whether he "breathed his last" or he "gave up the ghost."  They both meant that he died.  It is through the guidance of a Prophet of God and the confirming revelation from the Holy Ghost that tells us what to make of it.  But you're denying the truth that comes from this divine witness of truth in favor of the precepts, workings, and methods of men.

Listen to the Holy Ghost.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Guest

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

ghost ekpneo  NT:1606 ekpneo (ek-pneh'-o); from NT:1537 and NT:4154; to expire: Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.

Literally to die

The correct translation

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. NKJV

Mark 15:37" Jesus breathed his last". NIV

Mark 15:37 "breathed His last" NASU

Is this true or a mock on the Mormon church
 

I think we are at least in agreement that each of us has a spirit (person) within us (the "inward man" as the Bible calls it) that lives on after we die. Where we may disagree is whether the post-mortal spirits of men have form, and whether the spirits of men existed prior to mortality. As to whether they have form:

Yes, the phrase "gave up the ghost" means "to die." However, death may rightly be described as the separation of the spirit pf men from their bodies or in other words, their physical body gave up their spirits or "ghosts."

As for the  terms "spirit" and "ghost" being synonymous, this is made apparent not only with the names "Holy Spirit" and Holy Ghost" being used interchangeably, but there is also the  biblical account where Saul went to a Medium to conjure up the deceased spirit of Samuel. The NIV gives this description: "The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, 'I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.' What does he look like? he asked. 'An old man wearing a robe is coming up,'' she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. Samuel said to Saul, 'Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?' 'I am in great distress,...'" (1 Sam 28:13-15)

Other versions of the Bible use the words "spirit" or "god-like" or "divine being" as well as "ghostly," which adds additional wrinkles to the mix. I

Regardless what term is used to describe the deceased Samuel, each of the versions of the Bible are clear that he had form, and looked like an old man.

And, this isn't the only biblical passage in which the deceased spirits appear in similar form as their mortal bodies, or at least are described in anthropomorphic terms. There is Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the beggar (Lk 16:19-31),  the appearance of Moses and Elias on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt. 17:1-8), John's vision in which he sees the Elders, and those that stood before the throne of God were characterized as men (Rev. 5, see also Rev 7:13-15).

For additional biblical synonyms for the spirits of men, see also  "angels" and  "stars" and "hosts" and "man" (Jn 3,  Act 1:10-11, Rev 5:3)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by wenglund
Documentation

[zlarry123]

 

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I think we are at least in agreement that each of us has a spirit (person) within us (the "inward man" as the Bible calls it) that lives on after we die. Where we may disagree is whether the post-mortal spirits of men have form, and whether the spirits of men existed prior to mortality.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5,10-11

 

 

Not at this time! From the way I see it...... who we are in the eyes of God lives on in a resurrected spiritual body form only after death.

However in the case of Jesus who  was not an angel, lived in the form/nature of God but was not the only true God/Father.  Philippians 2:5-6 John 17:3

Hebrews 1:5

From the Mormon perspective the inward man is a separate entity, person, living inside us. Or we are just angel's living in a fleshly body?That personage at one time, before time began, was an angel sent to live according to God's purpose  in a physically created body one earth. Adam and Eve and their offspring. From what I understand to make choices, and by the options they would find themselves in different abodes/mansions after death. Some in the presents of God, other in between, and others far off. i.e a hellish prison. Does this suggest for the remote on living on earth forever.

Can you fill in some details .... post following, together with D&C  references. 

Thanks 

Larry

[wenglund]

21 hours ago, zlarry123 said:

 

 

Not at this time! From the way I see it...... who we are in the eyes of God lives on in a resurrected spiritual body form only after death.

However in the case of Jesus who  was not an angel, lived in the form/nature of God but was not the only true God/Father.  Philippians 2:5-6 John 17:3

Hebrews 1:5

From the Mormon perspective the inward man is a separate entity, person, living inside us. Or we are just angel's living in a fleshly body?That personage at one time, before time began, was an angel sent to live according to God's purpose  in a physically created body one earth. Adam and Eve and their offspring. From what I understand to make choices, and by the options they would find themselves in different abodes/mansions after death. Some in the presents of God, other in between, and others far off. i.e a hellish prison. Does this suggest for the remote on living on earth forever.

Can you fill in some details .... post following, together with D&C  references. 

Thanks 

Larry

We LDS believe that all of mankind existed prior to mortality as spirits (angels). We are literally the spirit children of our Heavenly Father. By way of mortal birth, our spirit bodies are clothed with flesh. Upon death, our spirits return to heaven while our flesh is buried in the earth. Through the resurrection, our spirits are re-clothed with our glorified flesh for eternity. In each of these ways we followed our elder brother, Jesus Christ.

Here is an excellent primer: "What We Know About Premortal Life." This may help as well: "9 Thngs You Have Forgotten About Your Premortal Life." Here are additional scriptures: Premortal Life.

From talking to people of other faiths all over the world, I get the sense that they, particularly fellow Christians, almost instinctual believe they, as individuals, all existed as spirit personages before mortality, and will live on as spirits after this life.  So, when we LDS teach about the premortality and God's plan for his children, it not only resonates with their intuitions, but it helps answer some of the most meaningful questions of life: Where did we come from? Why are we here on earth? And, where do we go when we die?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[zlarry123]

19 hours ago, wenglund said:

We LDS believe that all of mankind existed prior to mortality as spirits (angels). We are literally the spirit children of our Heavenly Father. By way of mortal birth, our spirit bodies are clothed with flesh. Upon death, our spirits return to heaven while our flesh is buried in the earth. Through the resurrection, our spirits are re-clothed with our glorified flesh for eternity. In each of these ways we followed our elder brother, Jesus Christ.

Here is an excellent primer: "What We Know About Premortal Life." This may help as well: "9 Thngs You Have Forgotten About Your Premortal Life." Here are additional scriptures: Premortal Life.

From talking to people of other faiths all over the world, I get the sense that they, particularly fellow Christians, almost instinctual believe they, as individuals, all existed as spirit personages before mortality, and will live on as spirits after this life.  So, when we LDS teach about the premortality and God's plan for his children, it not only resonates with their intuitions, but it helps answer some of the most meaningful questions of life: Where did we come from? Why are we here on earth? And, where do we go when we die?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade Good stuff

Thanks for those links, it set me on a ride through the Mormon community.

Intelligence and Matter existed before the Genesis creation story. God did not create the universe in that account, but  reorganize/rearranged it. First estate! (Abr. 3:26).  D&C 93:29 Moses 3:5, 9).  (Jer. 1:5

To provide a place for his heavenly children to make choices in a physical environment/body i.e. mortal probation. Moses 1:34)

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/the-three-rs-of-choice?lang=eng

The choices made not first-rate, terrestrial and telestial, contained in a biological body reside in a spiritual detention center.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/the-three-rs-of-choice?lang=eng

In time subsequently they will be preached to by the faithful who attained the celestial level. Making it possible through a sort of second chance Gospel. A failed test relocates them to the lowest glory. Hell! BTW I don't believe in a literal flaming hell fire doctrine

Surely this lead to more question and answers, and is filling my purpose to understand the  Mormons believe system. Perhaps you can provide a deeper look into what I have provided here. Or if this is so far on the right track.

Thanks Larry

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, zlarry123 said:

Wade Good stuff

Thanks for those links, it set me on a ride through the Mormon community.

Intelligence and Matter existed before the Genesis creation story. God did not create the universe in that account, but  reorganize/rearranged it. First estate! (Abr. 3:26).  D&C 93:29 Moses 3:5, 9).  (Jer. 1:5

To provide a place for his heavenly children to make choices in a physical environment/body i.e. mortal probation. Moses 1:34)

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/the-three-rs-of-choice?lang=eng

The choices made not first-rate, terrestrial and telestial, contained in a biological body reside in a spiritual detention center.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/the-three-rs-of-choice?lang=eng

In time subsequently they will be preached to by the faithful who attained the celestial level. Making it possible through a sort of second chance Gospel. A failed test relocates them to the lowest glory. Hell! BTW I don't believe in a literal flaming hell fire doctrine

Surely this lead to more question and answers, and is filling my purpose to understand the  Mormons believe system. Perhaps you can provide a deeper look into what I have provided here. Or if this is so far on the right track.

Thanks Larry

Just to be clear though, if one is saved he is saved into heaven. Hell is outer darkness.

[wenglund]

On 12/11/2017 at 10:57 AM, zlarry123 said:

Surely this lead to more question and answers, and is filling my purpose to understand the  Mormons believe system. Perhaps you can provide a deeper look into what I have provided here. Or if this is so far on the right track.

Perhaps I can do so at a later date. For now, I am focusing my in-depth resources to the Creation and Garden thread.

However, someone else on this thread may wish to step in.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mordorbund]

 

19 hours ago, wenglund said:

On 12/11/2017 at 12:57 PM, zlarry123 said:

Surely this lead to more question and answers, and is filling my purpose to understand the  Mormons believe system. Perhaps you can provide a deeper look into what I have provided here. Or if this is so far on the right track.

Perhaps I can do so at a later date. For now, I am focusing my in-depth resources to the Creation and Garden thread.

However, someone else on this thread may wish to step in.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Won't be me. I'm not sure he understands why Mormons don't think the "other sheep" are the Gentiles.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, wenglund said:

However, someone else on this thread may wish to step in.

?  He isn't even listening to you.  Why would anyone else spend time with someone who doesn't listen?

[wenglund]

On 12/13/2017 at 11:28 AM, Carborendum said:

?  He isn't even listening to you.  Why would anyone else spend time with someone who doesn't listen?

I thought if anyone still living could make the deaf to hear, it would be you.

For my part, I am still holding out hope for him  that some still small voice will get through.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-