Does Any One Care About G-d?

[Palerider]

And why is that? Why would it be heresy to teach the scientific arguments for Design vs. Random Selection? That's what this boils down to. It seems the scientific community is so afraid of religious influence, that it resorts its own dogmatism. After all, in the science classroom, there would be no discussion as to whether the design was done by a superior species, or by God.

I told you why.... if you get your Christian God, then I get my Flying Spaghetti Monster. Voodoo folks get their theories. I get my Dragon. And anybody who can rationalize a certain aspect of science - using science to prove their case - also gets a say. I bet there are thousands of such ideas. At some point it is no longer science. Which is why if you do not teach the generally accepted science, not only as an institution, but as a professor, you can say good bye to your accredidation, or career.

Science within higher education has to meet certain standards. That is what makes us the best in the world. It is why we are communicating via the internet. Our life spans go up. And any number of things. To do anything otherwise pretty much kills off our science education.

and I am very happy you have your flying monster.... B)

[sgallan]

I would have no problem with the evolutionary theories, as long as they do not descend to an enforcing of one metaphysical world veiw or denigrate other feilds and ways of knowing.

I don't get this. I sub all grades and evolution is taught as the accepted theory.... without a mention of God or religion. I have seen countless course descriptions, have taken college coursework, as have countless of my friends and peers, and it is just science. The whole religion thing never comes up good or bad. It is a non-issue. And why should it? That is humanities and/or social science.

[AnthonyB]

Traveler,

I think you misunderstood my post, I believe in evolution. I believe that the full suite of theories is the best solution for how God created life on earth. Calling it a theory is not to say that I don't believe it happens or that I need to see it occur.

I just think the evolution is not really understood by many people properly. As it is generally presented it is almost as unlikely scientifically as a 7 day creation.

There is a lot more going on than just "election of the fitest" antra that most evolutionist seem stuck on. Diversity life explodes whenever there is an opportunity. Life appears on earth almost as soon as it is possible.

Viruses move gene sequences across species. Whole genetic sequences appear to jump from one speicies to another et al.

[Traveler]

Traveler,

I think you misunderstood my post, I believe in evolution. I believe that the full suite of theories is the best solution for how God created life on earth. Calling it a theory is not to say that I don't believe it happens or that I need to see it occur.

I just think the evolution is not really understood by many people properly. As it is generally presented it is almost as unlikely scientifically as a 7 day creation.

There is a lot more going on than just "election of the fitest" antra that most evolutionist seem stuck on. Diversity life explodes whenever there is an opportunity. Life appears on earth almost as soon as it is possible.

Viruses move gene sequences across species. Whole genetic sequences appear to jump from one speicies to another et al.

If I addressed your attitude on evolution it was not intended. I agree a lot with what you have posted. May I add something? A 7 day creation? If man were to stand on a "relative" platform that aproached the speed of light what they saw as 7 days could become milions of years to someone standing on a much slower "relative" platform.

With all this said and as much as I believe evolution explains much - I can still recognize there are problems with the Big Band and biological evolution that one one yet understands. But two things. First: just because someone can understand a thing does not mean that G-d could not have been involved. And Two: Just because someone does not yet understand a thing does not prove that G-d must have done it. Jesus suggested that we learn about G-d by doing thing that G-d has done - or as Jesus said "Come follow me".

What better way to know anyone than to walk in their shoes. It is my belief that the more we walk in the ways of G-d the more he is pleased. I do not think that wanting to be like him upsets him at all. The notion that Satan wanted to be like G-d is a cleaver lie that Satan wants to be misunderstood. Satan has never intended to be like G-d - he wanted to change the very defination of what a G-d is.

The Traveler

[sgallan]

But two things. First: just because someone can understand a thing does not mean that G-d could not have been involved. And Two: Just because someone does not yet understand a thing does not prove that G-d must have done it.

I could say the samething about the invisible Dragon living underneath my house and it would be equally as valid.

[Elphaba]

Hi Traveler,

I didn't want you to think I had overlooked your post, because I hadn't.

The name of a Secularist in Utah - is Chris Allen. If you want to talk to him personally and ask him - we worked together at Eaten Kenway.

Yes, I would like to talk to him. Late afternoons are best for me, so if he is willing, if you would set up a time that would be great.

will give you a name of a teacher - Randy Bland - that was told that if he made any reference to religious material outside of the prescribed lesson plan that he would be fired. (this because he heald an position of high standing in the LDS Church).

I will give you a name of another former teacher - Wes Hall - who quit the teaching profession because of problems created with saying things like - This is what the approved texts says but I do not believe it.

So now I will ask you a question - Do you support the published stand by the ACLU concerning religion instruction and reference in public schools?

I have been busy these last couple of days, but I promise I will get back to you with answers on these within the next day or two.

Elphaba

[Palerider]

Hi Traveler,

I didn't want you to think I had overlooked your post, because I hadn't.

<div class='quotemain'>The name of a Secularist in Utah - is Chris Allen. If you want to talk to him personally and ask him - we worked together at Eaten Kenway.

Yes, I would like to talk to him. Late afternoons are best for me, so if he is willing, if you would set up a time that would be great.

will give you a name of a teacher - Randy Bland - that was told that if he made any reference to religious material outside of the prescribed lesson plan that he would be fired. (this because he heald an position of high standing in the LDS Church).

I will give you a name of another former teacher - Wes Hall - who quit the teaching profession because of problems created with saying things like - This is what the approved texts says but I do not believe it.

So now I will ask you a question - Do you support the published stand by the ACLU concerning religion instruction and reference in public schools?

I have been busy these last couple of days, but I promise I will get back to you with answers on these within the next day or two.

Elphaba

everyone take note....Elphaba has been busy.....she must be wrapping all the Christmas presents that she has for us.....LOL!!!!!!!!!!

[Elphaba]

everyone take note....Elphaba has been busy.....she must be wrapping all the Christmas presents that she has for us.....LOL!!!!!!!!!!

But Pale, you've been so naughty....

Elphie

[Alaskagain]

But Pale, you've been so naughty....

Elphie

We know, and it must be taking all of your spare time. It's very challenging to wrap lumps of coal attractively!

[Palerider]

<div class='quotemain'>everyone take note....Elphaba has been busy.....she must be wrapping all the Christmas presents that she has for us.....LOL!!!!!!!!!!

But Pale, you've been so naughty....

Elphie

you better watch out.....you better not cry

[Elphaba]

I will give you a name of a teacher - Randy Bland - that was told that if he made any reference to religious material outside of the prescribed lesson plan that he would be fired. (this because he heald an position of high standing in the LDS Church).

I will give you a name of another former teacher - Wes Hall - who quit the teaching profession because of problems created with saying things like - This is what the approved texts says but I do not believe it.

You haven’t given me enough information to address either of these issues. And, in spite of the fact that I specifically asked you not to provide anecdotal examples, you went ahead and did so anyway. Do you ever actually read my posts?

If you want me to comment on either of these individuals’ situations, you’re going to have to provide me with the details of their situations in context. What classes were they teaching? What was the approved coursework? What grades? Public schools? Etc.,

So now I will ask you a question - Do you support the published stand by the ACLU concerning religion instruction and reference in public schools?

If you are speaking of the “Joint Statement of Current Law on Religion in the Public Schools (4/12/1995),” then the answer is yes, I do. If you are speaking of some other published standard, please give me the actual reference so that I can answer your question.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Yes Elphie, I read every word of yours...all of them, and found them very educational.

Hi Pushka,

I wanted to make sure you knew that I believe you that you read my posts. I belive you always have, as have I yours.

The people I am talking about are those with whom I am having the conversation. For some reason, rarely do they actually read my post. I assume it's because they are often lengthy. That is because I usually provide evidence in my posts; however, that is not a good excuse for them not to actually read what I write.

You know how I feel about you, and know that I am always grateful to you for reading my side of the story.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Hi Traveler,

I didn't want you to think I had overlooked your post, because I hadn't.

<div class='quotemain'>The name of a Secularist in Utah - is Chris Allen. If you want to talk to him personally and ask him - we worked together at Eaten Kenway.

Yes, I would like to talk to him. Late afternoons are best for me, so if he is willing, if you would set up a time that would be great.

Traveler,

Have you talked to your friend yet about speaking with me? I am serious that I am interested in talking with him.

Actually, what would be easiest is if he and I could talk and schedule a time.

Elphaba

[pushka]

Hi Elphie, thanks for your comments about my post regarding reading your posts...I do know that you're aware of me always reading them, and I know that you appreciate that, however sometimes other people need to hear that you are being read, in order to get them motivated to read too..perhaps more people now read your posts completely than you believe..I hope so!! :)

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>Hi Traveler,

I didn't want you to think I had overlooked your post, because I hadn't.

<div class='quotemain'>The name of a Secularist in Utah - is Chris Allen. If you want to talk to him personally and ask him - we worked together at Eaten Kenway.

Yes, I would like to talk to him. Late afternoons are best for me, so if he is willing, if you would set up a time that would be great.

Traveler,

Have you talked to your friend yet about speaking with me? I am serious that I am interested in talking with him.

Actually, what would be easiest is if he and I could talk and schedule a time.

Elphaba

Here is a link - you will find Chris listed - you can contact him if you like through the Atheists-of-Utah organization.

http://nowscape.com/atheism/atheist_people.htm

The Traveler

[Elphaba]

<div class='quotemain'>The name of a Secularist in Utah - is Chris Allen. If you want to talk to him personally and ask him - we worked together at Eaten Kenway.

Yes, I would like to talk to him. Late afternoons are best for me, so if he is willing, if you would set up a time that would be great.

Traveler,

Have you talked to your friend yet about speaking with me? I am serious that I am interested in talking with him. . . .

Here is a link - you will find Chris listed - you can contact him if you like through the Atheists-of-Utah organization.

http://nowscape.com/atheism/atheist_people.htm

I looked at the link and am not comfortable with what I saw.

You said your friend is a Secularist. According to the link he is an atheist, but I see nothing to indicate he is a Secularist. I have no interest in talking to someone who is just an atheist.

Also, to be clear, I am talking about someone who is actively a Secularist who believes in the separation of church and state, not just a secularist in the broadest terms. I have been fairly prolific about that in this thread and do not want you to take my request out of context.

If your friend is, indeed, a Secularist in this context, let me know and I will call him. If he is just an atheist, then he is not a Secularist, and I am not interested.

Elphaba