Is Satan Really That Bad?

[imported_StructureCop]

Ron Beron's research has spurred me to question the traditional role of Satan as the consummate "bad guy." If God's plan requires opposition in all things, isn't "Satan" (Heb: Adversary) a requisite (and equally important) part of that plan? Must it also be that Satan (in some form or another) must exist and must have always existed, even in the afterlife? Does every planet have a Satan, or every universe, or what?

[imported_StructureCop]

Also, this thread is claimed in the name of the SSCE.

[Daniel]

Ron Beron's research has spurred me to question the traditional role of Satan as the consummate "bad guy." If God's plan requires opposition in all things, isn't "Satan" (Heb: Adversary) a requisite (and equally important) part of that plan? Must it also be that Satan (in some form or another) must exist and must have always existed, even in the afterlife? Does every planet have a Satan, or every universe, or what?

Personally I believe Satan was part of Heavenly Fathers plan. If Satan wasn't part of his plan there wouldn't be any temptation or evil doing, which would mean there would no need to test us. As for the rest of the question, not enough has been revealed about pre-existance and the others worlds created.

QuorumPrez

p.s. What does the SSCE stand for?

[emeliza]

Wait, the SSCE is here too? Glad I jumped on board. Long Live the SSCE!

I often think that Satan has the possibility of being welcomed back into the fold if he is willing to humble himself down and get rid of his pride. However I also think he would have a lot of work/repenting to do. But I think Heavenly Father loves all His children, even Satan.

Recently I have been reading a fictional book that has me thinking that Satan really just wanted to find a way to stand out on his own rather than become one of many. He didn't want to be part of the unity we all are trying for and was wanting to be unique. However he didn't realize that he would be unique within the unity.

Anyway now he has morphed himself into this evil being and will probably never get rid of his pride.

I would assume the same Satan exists in all realms and it isn't another Satan.

Um...that is my humanizing of Satan. I am probably way off though.

[Aluwid]

For the intent of our mortal life I would say yes, he really is that bad. His desire is for you to not be saved. We can theorize about his specific role in the plan, what will happen to him latter, etc, but don't let that convince you that you shouldn't be wary of him in this life.

[selek]

Personally I believe Satan was part of Heavenly Fathers plan. If Satan wasn't part of his plan there wouldn't be any temptation or evil doing, which would mean there would no need to test us. As for the rest of the question, not enough has been revealed about pre-existance and the others worlds created.

QuorumPrez

p.s. What does the SSCE stand for?

The Secret Society of Cavernous Evil. It is one of the secret combinations we are warned about in Scripture.

According to conventional rankings by the Rand Institute, the SSCE come in somewhere between Ronald McDonald and Walmart on the list of who's the most evil.

Doc Stuess is also a member, which may explain why they just edged out Colonel Sanders and Colonel Klink on the list.

As to the OP, I think Satan's activities were anticipated by, rather than commissioned by an omnipotent God.

[charity]

It is my opinion that evil is an eternal factor, entity, whatever. "There must needs be opposition in all things." There isn't any good without evil. But that doesn't give Satan a pass. There had to be a "satan," but Lucifer (or whatever his name was in the pre-mortal existence) didn't have to be it. Just like there had to be a "judas," but Iscariot chose to do what he did.

[jadams_4040]

Ron Beron's research has spurred me to question the traditional role of Satan as the consummate "bad guy." If God's plan requires opposition in all things, isn't "Satan" (Heb: Adversary) a requisite (and equally important) part of that plan? Must it also be that Satan (in some form or another) must exist and must have always existed, even in the afterlife? Does every planet have a Satan, or every universe, or what?

The word that you use "opposition" in all things, means the opposite of good?

And we do know that satan will be locked up for at least 1000 years, who knows after that?

[Jeny]

Also, this thread is claimed in the name of the SSCE.

Ok, I'll bite! What is SSCE?

[Jeny]

Wait, the SSCE is here too? Glad I jumped on board. Long Live the SSCE!

I often think that Satan has the possibility of being welcomed back into the fold if he is willing to humble himself down and get rid of his pride. However I also think he would have a lot of work/repenting to do. But I think Heavenly Father loves all His children, even Satan.

Recently I have been reading a fictional book that has me thinking that Satan really just wanted to find a way to stand out on his own rather than become one of many. He didn't want to be part of the unity we all are trying for and was wanting to be unique. However he didn't realize that he would be unique within the unity.

Anyway now he has morphed himself into this evil being and will probably never get rid of his pride.

I would assume the same Satan exists in all realms and it isn't another Satan.

Um...that is my humanizing of Satan. I am probably way off though.

The middle letter of the word, "pride" is the word, "I" Satan had "I" trouble! (Isaiah 14)

[Jeny]

The Secret Society of Cavernous Evil. It is one of the secret combinations we are warned about in Scripture.

According to conventional rankings by the Rand Institute, the SSCE come in somewhere between Ronald McDonald and Walmart on the list of who's the most evil.

Doc Stuess is also a member, which may explain why they just edged out Colonel Sanders and Colonel Klink on the list.

As to the OP, I think Satan's activities were anticipated by, rather than commissioned by an omnipotent God.

Please tell me you are speaking tongue and cheek!! I have run into Dr Stuess at the Ldstalk forum and I rather like the man...his post are very enlightening and well written.

[imported_StructureCop]

Ok, I'll bite! What is SSCE?

Secret Society of Cavernous Evil. While its name may be public, its activities are not.

[Jeny]

Secret Society of Cavernous Evil. While its name may be public, its activities are not.

So, are you a good witch or a bad witch?

[imported_StructureCop]

So, are you a good witch or a bad witch?

We are mostly benign. Unless you get on our bad side, that is...

[Ron Beron]

Ron Beron's research has spurred me to question the traditional role of Satan as the consummate "bad guy." If God's plan requires opposition in all things, isn't "Satan" (Heb: Adversary) a requisite (and equally important) part of that plan? Must it also be that Satan (in some form or another) must exist and must have always existed, even in the afterlife? Does every planet have a Satan, or every universe, or what?

I believe that Jewish thought did not include the idea of a good/evil dichotomy until after the return from Babylon. The Zoroastrians have a strong belief in the duality of the good/evil of God/Satan. M.C. Escher did an amazing print a number of years ago called the "The Scapegoat".

As can be seen Satan cannot exist independent of God and God independent of Satan or evil. Satan is a shadow of good, i.e. God.

I think since Satan is a spirit he does not have a body, therefore, he has the potential of disrupting life wherever it occurs.

[avatar4321]

Yes. Yes he is.

[Doctor Steuss]

Also, this thread is claimed in the name of the SSCE.

Ha-zah!!!

I would like to note that Satan doesn't make an appearance in the OT until rather late (or at least later than you'd think such a key player would appear).

And, as a side note (for those who think Satan was the serpent in Eden), I happen to think that the serpent was actually meant to represent another god in the region, and was depicted as the "bad guy" in order to show the primacy of Israel's religion.

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Property values of this thread just fell 10%

[selek]

Please tell me you are speaking tongue and cheek!! I have run into Dr Stuess at the Ldstalk forum and I rather like the man...his post are very enlightening and well written.

I am most assuredly speaking "tongue-in-cheek".

While Doc Stuess is indeed an enlightened and articulate friend, he is nonetheless the "tyler" of the SSCE. His post within the organization seems to vary. NASA is reportedly working on a complex algorithym which explains that his duties vary depending upon the phases of the moon, whether or not bell-bottom pants are currently in style, and the caloric and alcohol content of the "punch" served in the steaming skull-shaped mugs at the SSCE shin-digs in the underground tunnels running from the Sands Casino to Area 51.

I've also been reliably informed that the SSCE is the auxiliary organization to the UMW World Conclave (which meets frequently in an underground room beneath Tom Cruise's swimming pool). This is, of course, denied by the general SSCE membership- usually in a calm, articulate fashion involving lava lamps, axe handles, and the shaving of eyebrows.

I've been somewhat less-reliably informed that Stuess is also Barbara Striesand/Kurt Kobain's lovechild created using a five pound tub of CoolWhip and DNA from four of the five Beatles.

[selek]

And, as a side note (for those who think Satan was the serpent in Eden), I happen to think that the serpent was actually meant to represent another god in the region, and was depicted as the "bad guy" in order to show the primacy of Israel's religion.

Do you think that this late appearance is due to the much touted and long expected Post-exilic revision to the Scriptures Doc?

Or might there be another factor in such a "late" appearance?

[Doctor Steuss]

Do you think that this late appearance is due to the much touted and long expected Post-exilic revision to the Scriptures Doc?

Or might there be another factor in such a "late" appearance?

My thoughts are still in their infancy. Ron and Structurecop could definately give a much more educated answer than I.

But, in my speculative opinions:

1) It may be that the actual existence of a Lucifer wasn’t revealed until later.

2) He was a later addition into the text once the doctrine was refined.

3) The “adversary” to the first authors was not a given individual but was instead seen as a general evil (or, IMO “stupidity") that is inherent in all men, and it wasn’t until later that the “adversary” was attributed to a given individual.

4) There was a much more of a general sense of "evil" and "devils" than that which was later espoused.

5) I like tacos.

Please tell me you are speaking tongue and cheek!! I have run into Dr Stuess at the Ldstalk forum and I rather like the man...his post are very enlightening and well written.

Don't know if I've told you lately... but I love you.

[Ron Beron]

But, in my speculative opinions:

1) It may be that the actual existence of a Lucifer wasn’t revealed until later.

2) He was a later addition into the text once the doctrine was refined.

3) The “adversary” to the first authors was not a given individual but was instead seen as a general evil (or, IMO “stupidity") that is inherent in all men, and it wasn’t until later that the “adversary” was attributed to a given individual.

4) There was a much more of a general sense of "evil" and "devils" than that which was later espoused.

5) I like tacos.

I couldn't agree more! Especially about tacos. One point, though, is your number 3. I am not even sure if he was considered so much as an evil as God's special messenger to afflict mankind. Of course, we are borrowing here from other Mesopotamian sources. Having said that while I don't necessarily feel that there is a Satan, I definitely do believe in Evil and that it has form, function, and purpose albeit in a chaotic way.

[Doctor Steuss]

I couldn't agree more! Especially about tacos. One point, though, is your number 3. I am not even sure if he was considered so much as an evil as God's special messenger to afflict mankind. Of course, we are borrowing here from other Mesopotamian sources.

Fascinating (your love of tacos that is). Actually, I never even thought of the possibility that he was viewed as a "special messenger to afflict mankind." If you look at scripture (even LDS scripture) G-d does seem to use wicked people to inflict punishment/retribution. Why not have an angel who is given government over such a task (much like the designations given to Raphael, et.al. in the Book of Enoch)...

Having said that while I don't necessarily feel that there is a Satan, I definitely do believe in Evil and that it has form, function, and purpose albeit in a chaotic way.

Ron,

When you say that you don't necessarily feel that there is a Satan, are you saying that you think there might not be an actual individual named "Son of the Morning/Lucifer"? Or do you believe that his role has been confused and conflated into a "Satan"?

Thanks,

Stu

[Donny]

So now we've gone from wondering if Satan is really that bad, to wondering if Satan is even real? Isn't that just what Satan would want us to think?

[Doctor Steuss]

So now we've gone from wondering if Satan is really that bad, to wondering if Satan is even real? Isn't that just what Satan would want us to think?

Maybe… maybe not. It might help us to take more responsibility and accountability for the wrong and evil in the world in lieu of using Satan as a scapegoat.

But, I see where you're coming from. If Satan is really out there, it seems that he would find it triumphant if we stopped believing in his existence. Then again, would it not better serve his selfish motives to convince us of G-d's non-existence instead of his own? If he's out there, I think it might tick off his ego if we stopped believing he was out there.

It's a sticky subject. When I first read Ron's blog on the topic, my immediate reaction was a knee-jerk. Now, I'm just trying to sort through the murky waters to see if there just might be something there. There is no harm in re-evaluating our paradigms from time to time, as long as we don’t lose sight of Christ and G-d.

Edited to add:

I hope Bro. Baron doesn't mind if I post this, but here is a link to his blog entry that goes into this a bit.

[imported_StructureCop]

Isn't that just what Satan would want us to think?

I've never seen any scriptural evidence indicating that Satan wishes people to think he doesn't exist.