The Lds Church And The Unitarian Churches

[inthearmsofsleep]

It's interesting because the mental illness factor may have led you here... but it isn't a stable foundation for adopting a new religion into your life. I think whether or not you believe it's mental illness or divine intervention, listening to this 'son' isn't a good way of making important decisions that could affect your whole life. Again, like someone else said, I'm not saying any of this out of rudeness, I just want you to make the right decisions for the right reasons. If you did end up accepting these beliefs as your own and then your 'son' told you otherwise, or you got on medication and realized you didn't believe them as much as you thought you did, you might feel like you were led astray or that someone didn't stop you when they should have. In any case, good luck on your search for truth and light... and be of sound mind.

[Danage]

It's interesting because the mental illness factor may have led you here... but it isn't a stable foundation for adopting a new religion into your life. I think whether or not you believe it's mental illness or divine intervention, listening to this 'son' isn't a good way of making important decisions that could affect your whole life. Again, like someone else said, I'm not saying any of this out of rudeness, I just want you to make the right decisions for the right reasons. If you did end up accepting these beliefs as your own and then your 'son' told you otherwise, or you got on medication and realized you didn't believe them as much as you thought you did, you might feel like you were led astray or that someone didn't stop you when they should have. In any case, good luck on your search for truth and light... and be of sound mind.

Thank you for your post and your concern. I believe the psychosis was a guide when it was interfering with my life. Now it doesn't interfere with my life at all due to medication and my belief in One G-d, as compared to the Triune or Bi-union G-d. I have done my own research into both the Latter-day Saint faith and the Biblical Unitarian faith, of which the latter I lean more towards.

I am reading the Book of Mormon and New Testament to help me dicern between truth and falsity. So far I have discerned that G-d is one, not three-in-one or two-in-one, as the Trinitarians and Binitarians believe respectively; Jesus Christ was the Messiah; and the Holy Spirit is the guide from G-d. The whole idea that Ruach Akadosh, the Holy Spirit, is a guide

is very important to me for I believe, and so does a Messianic Jewish Rabbi believe, that I am being led by her (Ruach Akadosh) to the one true faith, and the one true church. As I read and learn so will the Truth be open to me and clear to me.

[Danage]

My psychosis is firmly under control, which is a good thing, but I have been reading very in depth in to the Bible and religion in general over many months (from January to now) and I have come up with several beliefs that are LDS in their nature, or tend to lean towards LDS teaching.

For example:

In Psalm 82 it says that angels are called Sons of the Most High, Sons of G-d, so if perhaps angels are Sons of G-d then maybe we are too, if there are many Sons of G-d.

John 1:1 clearly makes a distinction between G-d the Father and the Son. It says the Son was with G-d and was G-d, suggesting that the Father and Son are two separate beings in the G-dhead, thus blowing Trinitarianism and Binitarianism out of the water on this.

I believe, for some reason, that the star closest unto G-d is the Star Kolob, something I know is mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price.

I believe in many gods, despite the Biblical evidence in favour of one G-d, as angels are often times called gods, so maybe there are many gods, as is written in the Pearl of Great Price (I haven't got it, nor have I read it). Are gods sometimes called angels, such as Gabriel and Immanuel (Jesus Christ)?

Despite the writings of Paul of Tarsus saying the Law was cancelled, the tithing Laws are alluded to in Hebrews and you believe firmly in baptism being only for believers and through total immersion, all of those doctrines I agree with.

It says G-d is spirit, but also that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of G-d, possibly alluding to G-d having a perfect body of flesh and bones, and the spirit being the Holy Spirit.

I have had contact with LDS missionaries in the past, and read most of the First Book of Nephi. My beliefs are not completely in line with anything.

Now I just don't know what to do, whether I should perhaps get into contact with the missionaries again (which I last saw in January or February I think) or whether I should read more of the Book of Mormon. It might also be worth noting that in my quest for the Truth I am enquiring into many different denominations of Christianity and Christendom (Christianity being true, Christendom being false, although I have yet to discern what is Christianity and what is Christendom) and the Baha'i Faith (who believe that Joseph Smith Jr. was a seer rather than a prophet).

I thank you in advance for any help and advice you can provide and for your replies.

Edit: I have just looked up on wikipedia the Doctrines and Covenants and it seems you see Joseph Smith Junior as being a bit of an Elijah/Enoch figure. I view the Elijah figure as being someone who would restore the Church from absolute apostasy to absolute apostolicity. Is it possible that Joseph Smith Junior is the Elijah figure predicted in Malachi and other prophet's works? I think it is a possibility.

Second Edit: I have also, just a few seconds after the first edit, remembered that Joseph Smith Junior died in 1844 and the year is highly significant in Bible prophecy. As some of you may know the 1260 year lunar started in 538 and ended in 1844, when the Seventh-day Adventists believed Christ would return. Is it possible that the 'cleansing of the sanctuary' they now allude to happened in 1844 is in fact the entire reign of the LDS Church from the death of Joseph Smith Junior? It is, again, another possibility.

Another question for you all though: is the Father superior to the Son? I believe He is. The passage saying the Father is superior to the Son is found in, I think, John 10:29.

Third Edit, sorry about this: In the Bible G-d the Father and the Son are always referred to as two separate beings, suggesting that they are two separate entities. The Holy Spirit is called the spirit of G-d, and Christ, suggesting she operates through the two potential beings of the G-dhead.

Another thing that has sway over me is related to the restoration of the Church under the Elijah figure. The true church was always to be called the Church of G-d. This is referenced by the writings of St. Paul of Tarsus, where he makes many references to Churches of G-d in different varying locations. The LDS Church was once called the Church of G-d and the LDS Church name makes allusions to being called the Church of G-d, i.e. if Jesus Christ is a G-d then it means the name of the Church can be referred to, informally, as The Church of G-d of Latter-day Saints. Do you see where I am coming from here?

Once again thank you for your time.

[Danage]

I also believe that the Bible is corrupted, since for one thing, there are many contradictions in the Bible. From what I have read of the Book of Mormon so far (most of First Nephi, with Alma 51, 3 Nephi 11 and Moroni 10:3-5) there are no contradictions, even with the Bible.

The Doctrines and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price I have never read, so I would not know weather they had contradictions or not within the pages.

I also view G-d the Father as being the Most High G-d, as compared to just a god, with Jesus Christ and G-d's other children being below Him also. I also call G-d the Father Heavenly Father, and I know that the Latter-day Saints call Him Heavenly Father.

I really want to see the missionaries again, to learn more, more than I learnt last time, maybe I should go to the Church in the city this Sunday. What do you all think?

Is all this in line with Latter-day Saint doctrine? Sorry for the general overload of questions and thank you for your time.

[Guest Xzain]

Danage-

You have done your homework- far more than I have. I simply cannot follow most of your discussion on the similarities between Unitarian and LDS faiths.

I understand your battle with mental illness- I suffer from behavioral illness. Sometimes I wonder if it is a curse or a blessing from God. It certainly isn't easy to deal with- what in life is?- but it gives me special insight and empathy I would not have gained otherwise.

To sort out what is True, I would start at the basics. Would you do me a favor- answer me a few questions, and add anything you see fit?

1) Do you believe in a loving G-d?

2) Do you believe you (personally) are a child of G-d?

3) Do you believe that G-d knows how to give good gifts to His children?

I hope your search for Truth goes well!

-Xzain

[Danage]

Danage-

You have done your homework- far more than I have. I simply cannot follow most of your discussion on the similarities between Unitarian and LDS faiths.

There isn't that much similarity, but having done some rather in depth Bible study over the last five and a half months has revealed beyond any doubt that the Bible has suffered corruption and many concepts (such as John 3:6: 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit'), suggest Latter-day Saint doctrines.

I understand your battle with mental illness- I suffer from behavioral illness. Sometimes I wonder if it is a curse or a blessing from God. It certainly isn't easy to deal with- what in life is?- but it gives me special insight and empathy I would not have gained otherwise.

After being persuaded by LDS missionaries that the mental illness is not a punishment from G-d, but a test, I have since seen it as the Holy Spirit Herself.

To sort out what is True, I would start at the basics. Would you do me a favor- answer me a few questions, and add anything you see fit?

Of course, find my answers below.

1) Do you believe in a loving G-d?

I believe G-d is love, hence I believe the Heavenly Father is a loving G-d. I might also note that I do not believe in Hell, for G-d is a loving G-d, and I also believe nearly all shall eventually become gods, and have various stations in the Celestial Heavenly Kingdom. The degrees of glory also makes sense, and shows that belief in a loving G-d is consistant with Christian faith, but not with the idea of Hell.

2) Do you believe you (personally) are a child of G-d?

We are all spiritual children of G-d.

3) Do you believe that G-d knows how to give good gifts to His children?

Yes.

I hope your search for Truth goes well!

-Xzain

Thank you.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Danage
Just a few corrections and additions

[Danage]

I don't know whether I put this in, I can't seem to find it in full, but I believe that when we go on to the next life, if we are judged by the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (Immanuel), to be of worth, we will become gods ourselves (John 3:6, I think, and Psalm 82:6). Since the Most High is also mentioned alongside the many gods, then I must assume that a) there are many gods, b) the Heavenly Father is the Most High G-d.

I hope I have made my beliefs understandable. If you need any more information or want to ask more questions, please feel free to ask.

[Traveler]

Danage: Perhaps you should consider a possibility other than mental illness. From first brush it would appear to me that you have encountered an unclean spirit of confusion.

The Traveler

[Danage]

Danage: Perhaps you should consider a possibility other than mental illness. From first brush it would appear to me that you have encountered an unclean spirit of confusion.

The Traveler

I don't understand quite what you mean by this, but if you are saying that perhaps this is influenced by a mental illness now firmly under control, then you would be incorrect in assuming that. My beliefs stem directly from reading the Bible, for the idea of the Heavenly Father helped me through those times, so I decided to read His book, although it has suffered much corruption. Every belief I have stems from the Bible.

Also, where can I get a D&C and Pearl of Great Price without reading it off the net, from missionaries perhaps? Thank you.

[Danage]

I have a few questions I would appreciate answers to:

What were the prophecies of Joseph Smith Junior (preferably with citations and quotes. Thanks)?

Would I still be allowed to wear a cross (it is a symbol of my lay oblation (lay monasticism is another way of putting it) vows (I assume not)?

Toda raba (Thank you very much)

[Moksha]

Would I still be allowed to wear a cross (it is a symbol of my lay oblation (lay monasticism is another way of putting it) vows (I assume not)?

Toda raba (Thank you very much)

It would be best to wear it under your clothing.

Namasté

[Danage]

It would be best to wear it under your clothing.

Namasté

Thank you for your answer.

[rameumptom]

Danage,

The Bible is rather evident in its discussion of a hell that exists. I'd find it hard to dismiss it completely. If for no other reason, the scripture states that Satan and his devils will be cast into hell at the last day.

Having said that, LDS believe in a near universal salvation. All but the sons of perdition will be saved in a kingdom of heaven. That is to say, only those who completely and fully fight against God, and who refuse to repent through Christ's name, will be cast out.

The problem with Unitarianism, is that it tries to be all things to all people. But it ignores the issue of prophets. If prophets are called of God, then we can't spend our time picking and choosing at the doctrinal buffet. If they are not called of God, then there really is no reason to be looking at the Bible or LDS writings in the first place.

But, if Joseph Smith was called of God as a prophet, then we need to accept that the doctrines he taught are the things God has called upon us to accept. There is no half-way on this issue. Either Joseph is a prophet of God or he isn't. Either we accept all his teachings, or we don't. To the extent we reject the words of a prophet, we are rejecting a higher kingdom of heaven, where the standards of truth are higher.

[rameumptom]

Danage,

I would recommend that, along with reading the Bible, you read the Book of Mormon. It will guide you to a better understanding of God and Christ. It has not lost the precious things that are missing from the Bible. After the Book of Mormon, you can read many more of the prophecies of Joseph Smith in the Doctrine and Covenants.

You can order a free Book of Mormon at this link.

[Danage]

Danage,

The Bible is rather evident in its discussion of a hell that exists. I'd find it hard to dismiss it completely. If for no other reason, the scripture states that Satan and his devils will be cast into hell at the last day.

I agree, as the Devil and his demons must be destroyed.

Having said that, LDS believe in a near universal salvation.

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. My in depth Bible study (the Bible is corrupt, but some truths are maintained) revealed to me that all shall see the salvation of Christ, be it in this life or the next.

All but the sons of perdition will be saved in a kingdom of heaven. That is to say, only those who completely and fully fight against God, and who refuse to repent through Christ's name, will be cast out.

I again agree wholeheartedly with that statement. Only a few shall be cut of from the Heavenly Father completely.

The problem with Unitarianism, is that it tries to be all things to all people.

When I say Unitarianism I refer to Biblical Unitarianism, not the Unitarian Universalists.

But it ignores the issue of prophets.

Yes, the Universalists ignore the issue of prophets.

If prophets are called of God, then we can't spend our time picking and choosing at the doctrinal buffet. If they are not called of God, then there really is no reason to be looking at the Bible or LDS writings in the first place.

Yes, but Christ promised that there would be prophets after him, otherwise he wouldn't say Prophets would be known by their fruits.

But, if Joseph Smith was called of God as a prophet, then we need to accept that the doctrines he taught are the things God has called upon us to accept. There is no half-way on this issue.

My beliefs are more in line with the LDS Church, and not Unitarianism.

For a start, there are many sons of God in Heaven (Psalm 82:6).

Either Joseph is a prophet of God or he isn't. Either we accept all his teachings, or we don't. To the extent we reject the words of a prophet, we are rejecting a higher kingdom of heaven, where the standards of truth are higher.

I agree with this statement also.

BTW - I already have a BoM. I have so far read Alma 51, 3 Nephi 11, Mosiah 10:3-5 and 1 Nephi 1-20.

[Danage]

I have in my possession a D&C and Pearl of Great Price, and I was wondering which parts I should read that relate to the prophecies of Joseph Smith. Thank you.

[rameumptom]

Actually, they ALL are revelations primarily given to Joseph Smith. The question is what type of revelations or prophecy you are looking for? End of times? Health code? Government? Priesthood? Commandments? Heaven(s)? Other?

[Danage]

Actually, they ALL are revelations primarily given to Joseph Smith. The question is what type of revelations or prophecy you are looking for? End of times? Health code? Government? Priesthood? Commandments? Heaven(s)? Other?

I would be interested in which prophecies came true, that is the best way to determine whether the prophet is of God. Thank you.

[rameumptom]

There are many revelations, big and small, which have come true. I recommend you reading one of the big ones at this link, concerning the Prophecy of War.

There are many other prophecies that have come true that are easy to miss, if one isn't really studying them. The BoM states that in the last days, the latter-day church would be spread throughout the world, but in small groups. That's exactly how it is today, but unforeseeable in the days when Joseph only had a handful of followers.

The Word of Wisdom (D&C 89) gives us a health code that is still very valid today. It wasn't until the 1960s that the US Surgeon General announced that cigarettes are bad for us. And you won't find much alcoholism or drug dependency among active LDS. LDS live 10 years longer than the average American.

Prophecies concerning the last days are found in D&C 45, 133, among others. Of course, there is the one in the Joseph Smith History, in the Pearl of Great Price, concerning some writings from the plates that Martin Harris took to have certified by experts. One, Charles Anthon, first certified it until he heard about the angel, and then tore up the certificate. He insisted on seeing the plates himself, but when he was told they were sealed, exclaimed that he could not read a "sealed book." Compare this with Isaiah 29.

And then there are the beliefs that were lost anciently and restored through Joseph Smith. The concept of an anthropomorphic God. God and Jesus as physically separate beings. Degrees or levels of Heaven (D&C 76). The Spirit World - paradise and spirit prison. The temple rites. etc, etc, etc.