Tithing

[mormonarmywife]

hey everyone im new to the forum my names amy and im 20 married and expecting my first little girl in 9 days

anyways tonight me and my husband got into a discussion over tithing and what you pay on and what you dont

i grew up mormon and i was telling him that my parents and many other church adults taught me that your

suppose to pay 10% of all you make but gifts and presents are diffrent and you dont have to pay tithing on them

if you do not choose to,he seem to think diffrent he says all things given are gifts from god and henceforth we should

pay 10% on EVERYTHING whither its a gift, a present, something we found, or our earnings.

so i was wondering what ya'll thought or if you could give us any helpful things to read or look-up

we are trying to become temple worthy and this is one or our first steps so any useful comments would help

us out bunches.

thanks so much

Amy

[rickg]

Ho boy. Another fun subject

"Gifts" are kinda in the grey-zone. I'm sure you'll get some folks here on both sides of the fence. I think, IMHO, that as far as being "temple worthy", you'd be safe with paying a tithe on your paycheck. But let's see what others say here. This outta be interesting.

[Shoofly]

hey everyone im new to the forum my names amy and im 20 married and expecting my first little girl in 9 days

anyways tonight me and my husband got into a discussion over tithing and what you pay on and what you dont

i grew up mormon and i was telling him that my parents and many other church adults taught me that your

suppose to pay 10% of all you make but gifts and presents are diffrent and you dont have to pay tithing on them

if you do not choose to,he seem to think diffrent he says all things given are gifts from god and henceforth we should

pay 10% on EVERYTHING whither its a gift, a present, something we found, or our earnings.

so i was wondering what ya'll thought or if you could give us any helpful things to read or look-up

we are trying to become temple worthy and this is one or our first steps so any useful comments would help

us out bunches.

thanks so much

Amy

President Hinkley has said that is not so much a matter of money as it is of faith. My thought's are if your Husband, who is the Priesthood leader in your home, feels lead to pay tithing on gifts, I would support that inspiration. I know you'll be blessed for it.

[fish4kitty]

Welcome to the forum. As to your question. IMO if it is in your mind income then you should tithe your usual 10%. If it is a gift card or the such no don't tithe on it. I would not tithe on a new skill saw that someone bought me as a gift. But if someone gave me cash for whatever say my BD I would probably tithe it. Due to the fact I would use it for bills or something else. Hey do what you feel comfortable with you only have to answer to GOD!!!!!

f4k

[CourtneyP]

Last Sunday there was a speaker who gave a talk on tithes and offerings. I honestly have no idea how I am going to manage tithing without adding another job. I guess it's best for me to turn things over to God and see what happens.

[ztodd]

I think the commandment is to tithe your "increase". I think this would include gifts, but... God knows our heart and our willingness to sacrifice- sometimes we might receive gifts that we're not able to pay full tithing on, like wedding gifts- if you get a lot of wedding gifts, and you're just starting out so you're both poor, not making a lot of money, maybe you don't even have enough to pay tithing on all the gifts! What do you do, return some of them because you're not able to tithe them? I don't think that's required- but we always round up a couple dollars when we pay tithing on our paychecks to try to account for gifts or other increase.

[MorningStar]

I think the commandment is to tithe your "increase". I think this would include gifts, but... God knows our heart and our willingness to sacrifice- sometimes we might receive gifts that we're not able to pay full tithing on, like wedding gifts- if you get a lot of wedding gifts, and you're just starting out so you're both poor, not making a lot of money, maybe you don't even have enough to pay tithing on all the gifts! What do you do, return some of them because you're not able to tithe them? I don't think that's required- but we always round up a couple dollars when we pay tithing on our paychecks to try to account for gifts or other increase.

I do the same thing. I'm not good at keeping track of cash gifts, so I figure if I round up, it's covered. :)

[DrewM]

hey everyone im new to the forum my names amy and im 20 married and expecting my first little girl in 9 days

anyways tonight me and my husband got into a discussion over tithing and what you pay on and what you dont

i grew up mormon and i was telling him that my parents and many other church adults taught me that your

suppose to pay 10% of all you make but gifts and presents are diffrent and you dont have to pay tithing on them

if you do not choose to,he seem to think diffrent he says all things given are gifts from god and henceforth we should

pay 10% on EVERYTHING whither its a gift, a present, something we found, or our earnings.

so i was wondering what ya'll thought or if you could give us any helpful things to read or look-up

we are trying to become temple worthy and this is one or our first steps so any useful comments would help

us out bunches.

thanks so much

Amy

D&C 119 says you pay tithing on "interest" whatever that means. The brethren have called this "increase." So, I figure a gift is an increase unless it's my wife buying it for me with my own money. So, I pay tithing on gifts. The brethren haven't told us specifically on this.

[mnn727]

The brethern have been very careful not to strictly define what a tithe is, why is that? because each person is a steward of all they have which includes both money and their own spiritual knowledge. If I honestly believe that my "increase" does or does not include somethings that someone else in the Church feels the opposite about - its ok, as long as we both feel we are paying an honest tithe. I personally am sick of well meaning people trying to tell me what my increase is. The Lord loves a cheerful giver, if I am happy with my tithing I am cheerful, if I have to worry about this or that rule then I am not cheerful anymore.

Here I'll give you something to think about, is the money you pay for interest on a debt really an increase to you? or is it an increase to the loan company and a decrease to you? I'm not going to declare the answer either way, thats up to you and God to decide, but if anyone tells you either way, they are claiming more knowledge than Gods Prophet has declared to us.

Here's another thing to think about, DO I pay tithing on the money I earn that goes to the allowance I give to my children? or do they? or do we both?

Don't get so hung up on the mechanics, give what you believe is a fair and honest tithe and don't sweat the details. No one in charge will ever ask to see your tax return, nor will anyone who is following the Church Handbook of Instructions declare what is and is not an honest tithe other than to tell you its 10% of your 'increase'

[ztodd]

The brethern have been very careful not to strictly define what a tithe is, why is that? because each person is a steward of all they have which includes both money and spiritual knowledge. If I honestly believe that my "increase" does or does not include somethings that someone else in the Church feels the opposite about - its ok, as long as we both feel we are paying an honest tithe. I personally am sick of well meaning people trying to tell me what my increase is. The Lord loves a cheerful giver, if I am happy with my tithing I am cheerful, if I have to worry about this or that rule then I am not cheerful anymore.

Here I'll give you something to think about, is the money you pay for interest on a debt really an increase to you? or is it an increase to the loan company and a decrease to you? I'm not going to declare the answer either way, thats up to you and God to decide, but if anyone tells you either way, they are claiming more knowledge than Gods Prophet has declared to us.

My opinion on that is that when you borrowed the money with the agreement to pay back in periodic installments, thus going into debt, you were basically agreeing to pay the interest right along with the amount of the actual value of the thing purchased, because you needed or wanted that thing right away. The interest you're paying is the fee for the privilege of having the thing you purchased without paying it all up front with real money. That privilege is of value to you, otherwise you would not have gone into debt and agreed to pay the interest. The value of having that privilege, of having the thing without having paid for it all yet, is what I consider your "increase" in this case. This value quantified is equal to the interest you are paying.

For example, most folks including myself have to go into debt to buy a home. You need it to live in right away so you get a mortgage loan. The interest you pay on your mortgage is the fee for living in and using in your home even though you haven't paid for it yet with real money. This privilege has definite value, just like anything else you buy with money. So I would say yes, this is part of my increase.

Another way to look at it - once you earn money and get a paycheck, that is increase to you. How you need or want to spend it after that is up to you. You can spend it wisely or foolishly, get good deals or get scammed out of it. You could lose it or gain more by investing. You might pay it as interest to your creditors for the privilege of having something you haven't fully paid for yet. You might even be carrying it as cash and drop it and lose it somewhere. But none of that changes the fact that your paycheck was your increase before you spent or lost it.

Now that I think about it, that last scenario of losing cash might be a little different situation... maybe it was once your increase, but since you lost it, it is no longer increase to you, since you received absolutely nothing of value out of it... but can you apply the same principle to money you lost in an investment? I don't think so... when you invest money in something, you know there's a risk. Come to think of it, when you carry cash, you know there's a risk there also...

My opinion on whether parents or children or both paying tithing on allowance is- when someone receives money, whether earned or gifted, and it is now their personal money to do with as they please, then they should tithe it. Perhaps the same principle applies to husbands and wives if money is given or paid from one to the other, such that the accountability and freedom to use the money passes hands. However it works out, it only needs to be tithed once, when it gets into the hands of the final recipient and end user- it technically doesn't matter who pays it, but I feel the end user should get the blessing of the sacrifice.

[Moksha]

I wouldn't worry about gifts. You might receive an extravagant gift that you would never be able to pay the tithing on.

[tubaloth]

Again I can only tell you my account… On my mission one of my companions would get money for his birthday from his grandma. I would notice that he was filling out tithing (as a missionary we aren’t making any money, but we do pay some for fast offerings.) I guess still being young and wanting to learn I asked him are you paying tithing on it. And he had the same argument as your husband; it’s a gift so I pay tithing on it.

In my family we didn’t pay tithing on gifts or Allowance. But my dad had us save money and at the end of the year any “interest” we made on that money we would pay tithing. The only time I ever paid tithing was when I did a job or worked, (even if it was for my parents).

So the next interview I had with my mission President, and sense I needed something to talk about, I asked him do you pay tithing on money that is given to you. My Mission President who had been a former bishop pretty much said you can do what you want with it. He said if somebody gives you a shirt you can’t pay 10% of that. From what I got from it is that its up to the user if they want to pay tithing on gifts.

I would maybe talk with the bishop on it. Maybe that way you and your husband won’t fight over it. Now maybe your bishop wants people to pay tithing on gifts. Maybe not.

Usually the major part of tithing is what you are earning. The other is up to you. If you are paying 10% on what you are earning then I would say you are a full tithe payer.

[ztodd]

Usually the major part of tithing is what you are earning. The other is up to you. If you are paying 10% on what you are earning then I would say you are a full tithe payer.

That makes sense. I tithe gifts when I can, but I don't expect everyone to feel required to do so.

Since the purpose of tithing is to show obedience and willingness to sacrifice, it means more when it's on money you've worked hard to earn. I know the Lord's promise is true that the windows of heaven are opened and blessing poured out on us when we make that sacrifice. The Lord doesn't need our money, He just needs our hearts, our obedience, no matter what the commandment is.

[rickg]

Hey, alot of really good answers here. B)

While we're on the subject, an Aunt & Uncle of mine pay tithing on what's left of their paycheck AFTER they pay bills, taxes, ect. They even claim that their Bishop instructed them that this was acceptable. Now, I know this isn't what it means to pay on our "increase", but I can't actually find it in writing to dispute it. Anybody have a reference? I recall waay back in an Institute of Religion class this issue was brought up, and the instructor told us that this was how the RLDS church interpreted the scripture, but I can't recall now what he used to refute it.

[mnn727]

Hey, alot of really good answers here. B)

While we're on the subject, an Aunt & Uncle of mine pay tithing on what's left of their paycheck AFTER they pay bills, taxes, ect. They even claim that their Bishop instructed them that this was acceptable. Now, I know this isn't what it means to pay on our "increase", but I can't actually find it in writing to dispute it. Anybody have a reference? I recall waay back in an Institute of Religion class this issue was brought up, and the instructor told us that this was how the RLDS church interpreted the scripture, but I can't recall now what he used to refute it.

If your Aunt and Uncle believe that is an honest tithe, then it is. The fact that you or I may disagree makes no difference.

In the New Testament was the Lord hung up on technicalities of the Laws or on what was in peoples hearts?

Do they cheerfully pay it? and do they believe its an honest tithe are the only 2 things that matter.

2 Corinth 9:7 (KJV) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

or how the NIV puts the same verse: 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

I think the NIV (in this case) is exactly how the brethern interpret (and declare) tithing in modern day English.

If the Lord didn;t get hung up on the technicalities of the Law, why do we try to make such a big deal out of them?

[mnn727]

My opinion on that is that when you borrowed the money with the agreement to pay back in periodic installments, thus going into debt, you were basically agreeing to pay the interest right along with the amount of the actual value of the thing purchased, because you needed or wanted that thing right away. The interest you're paying is the fee for the privilege of having the thing you purchased without paying it all up front with real money. That privilege is of value to you, otherwise you would not have gone into debt and agreed to pay the interest. The value of having that privilege, of having the thing without having paid for it all yet, is what I consider your "increase" in this case. This value quantified is equal to the interest you are paying.

Thank you so much for saying right at the beggining the words "My opinion on that is..." I respect that, and I respect that you feel that way. I would also like to present the other side of the coin so to speak.

Housing and land prices are so high these days and City laws and building codes make it nearly impossible for someone to build their own house that if I need a place to house my family, I am forced to pay interest that in an earlier day I would not have had to pay in order to house my family, thus the interest I pay is a debt to me, not a privelage to live in a house. Now if years down the road I sell the house and make a profit, that IMHO would be an increase to me, but what if the housing market goes down and I lose money on the sale - do I deduct that?

As I said, I am not trying to say this view is the correct one or even that I hold it, I give it merely to show that an argument could be made for both sides and that both sides would be correct IF AND ONLY IF the persons holding those views believe what they tithe is an honest tithe. If I do not pay tithe on the interest I pay on my house AND I think I am 'getting away with something' then I am not being honest with God and will reap my reward for that dishonesty - however if I believe its honest, I will in no way lose my reward for paying an honest tithe.

Does that make sense?

To get back to the original posters question about gifts, Did I ask for the gift? was it something I wanted, what if someone gave me a really extravagent gift - well beyond my resources. Lets say for example that a very wealthy and extravegant relative gave me a painting by Rembrandt worth over a million dollars, lets further say that if I sold this painting it would break my relatives heart and the family would hate me forever. Lets further say I earn $40,000 a year and have almost nothing in savings. The tithing would be $100,000 on this million $ painting and I only make $40,000 a year - do I borrow money to pay tithing? do I then pay interest on the money I borrowed to pay tithing? Any accountant would definatly say the painting is an increase to me (as it raises my net worth) But is it really an increase in the eyes of the Lord? A very good argument could be made that its not really an increase to me until I sell it and if that argument is accepted, why would you not make the same argument about the house I mentioned above?

Its a very extreme and unlikely example, but one that I hope illustrates my point.

[ztodd]

Good points about if you asked for or wanted the gift... I also agree the unsold painting would not exactly be an increase to you, unless you really derive a great amount of pleasure from it.

There's a real difference between the painting and the house though. You get a lot more actual use out of the house.

One other point- I mentioned previously how I felt that the purpose of tithing was to show our obedience and willingness to sacrifice. I also believe another purpose of it is to prepare us to eventually live the law of consecration. So if I happen to err on the side of paying too much tithing, I have no worries about that- I know it's going for the best cause. :) But if we have extra money to give, we actually give it to either fast offering or humanitarian aid.

[rickg]

If your Aunt and Uncle believe that is an honest tithe, then it is. The fact that you or I may disagree makes no difference.

In the New Testament was the Lord hung up on technicalities of the Laws or on what was in peoples hearts?

Do they cheerfully pay it? and do they believe its an honest tithe are the only 2 things that matter.

2 Corinth 9:7 (KJV) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

or how the NIV puts the same verse: 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

I think the NIV (in this case) is exactly how the brethern interpret (and declare) tithing in modern day English.

If the Lord didn;t get hung up on the technicalities of the Law, why do we try to make such a big deal out of them?

Do you go to the same church as I do? There are guidlines in the church about tithing. It's to be 10%("tithe" means a tenth) of your gross income. Gifts, ect are the only thing that's in a grey zone here. I just don't know where it's referenced.

Edit:

Ok. Did a search at the church's web site:

The Law of Tithing

Elder Daniel L. Johnson

Of the Seventy

"So what is a tithing? The Lord has given us His definition: “And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever.”2 Please note that the tithe is not just any freewill offering, nor is it a 20th or some other fraction of our annual interest or income.

President Howard W. Hunter stated it this way: “The law is simply stated as ‘one-tenth of all their interest.’ Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source. The Lord said it is a standing law ‘forever’ as it has been in the past.”

Come Listen to a Prophet’s Voice:

Opening the Windows of Heaven

By President James E. Faust

Second Counselor in the First Presidency

"The law of tithing is simple: we pay one-tenth of our individual increase. Our increase is our income."

New Era » 1975 » December

Q&A:

Questions and Answers

"Because of the many questions about tithing that are received by the General Authorities of the Church, the First Presidency addressed a letter to presidents of stakes and missions, bishops of wards, and presidents of branches, dated March 19, 1970. They referred these Church officers to the Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4 [D&C 119:3–4], which reads:

“And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

“… those who have been thus tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.”

After quoting this scripture the First Presidency said: “No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” They did, however, point out that “interest” is understood to mean “income.”

Income. Not "after taxes increase". Income, as in my wages. What I'm paid to do my job.

[mnn727]

After quoting this scripture the First Presidency said: “No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” They did, however, point out that “interest” is understood to mean “income.”

Income. Not "after taxes increase". Income, as in my wages. What I'm paid to do my job.

Rick, no offence, but why is it that you get to define that 'income" means "gross wages" when the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have refused to define it? in fact I wonder if you have even read the First Presidency statement you yourself posted?

I understand that this brings out passion in people, I wonder if its because they are not actually cheerful givers themselves? Nevertheless you have no business informing anyone that they must pay tithes on their gross or they are not a full tithe payer. Let me quote again what the F.P. said in the statement you quoted: "We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly"

[Guest AutumnBreez]

I am usually tight with my money, but I feel excited about paying tithing. I have been given much.

[ztodd]

The question of paying tithing on gross or net after taxes is based on whether you feel that the gross is your increase / income or the net is your increase / income. People feel that since taxes are taken away automatically, they have no choice but to pay them, so it's not really part of their income. It is true that most employers will not pay you without taking away taxes first, so I understand that argument. When you say income, it can sometimes be obscure as to whether you mean gross income or net income after taxes. The first presidency has not clarified it.

Questions to consider: In what ways is paying taxes different from paying bills? In what ways are paying taxes and bills different from paying for other goods and services that we need or want? What do we get from paying taxes vs. what do we get from paying our bills? How does tithing on gross or net correspond with the spirit of the law? How does the decision pertain to our obedience and willingness to sacrifice? How does it pertain to our spiritual preparation to live other laws of the Lord?

As long as a person has carefully and prayerfully considered these and any other aspects of the issue, and remains humble and open to further learning, there should be no problem with they're making their own decision.

If anyone thinks I'm making too big a deal out of it, consider that we may one day be asked to live the law of consecration. Will we be prepared to show faithful obedience when that day comes? If it came tomorrow, would we be prepared?

[rickg]

Rick, no offence, but why is it that you get to define that 'income" means "gross wages" when the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have refused to define it? in fact I wonder if you have even read the First Presidency statement you yourself posted?

I understand that this brings out passion in people, I wonder if its because they are not actually cheerful givers themselves? Nevertheless you have no business informing anyone that they must pay tithes on their gross or they are not a full tithe payer. Let me quote again what the F.P. said in the statement you quoted: "We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly"

Let's just assume we could poll the GA's on this. What do you honestly feel they would give as an answer, as to how they pay their's, gross pay, or net? I could take a good guess, and feel I have a 99% sureity I'd be right.

No, I'm not going around advising others. It just came up in a conversation with my aunt & uncle, and they told me what I mentioned earlier. I tried to kindly dispute it, but it quickly became evident they had their minds made up, so I let it go. I won't bring it up again with them, or anyone else, unless they do first.

Yes, I fell very pasionate about it. It's what I've been taught for years, and feel is the right way to interpret it, and most everyone I've ever discussed it with have agreed. I'm just amazed that some feel otherwise, but I won't go to very much length to argue the point. In fact this here discussion is as far as I've ever taken it. As the saying goes, politics and religion..........

So, I'm done here. Thanks for all the input. B)

[jax]

dos any1 no who is suppose to pay tithing? myself and my husband are both inactive (and i cant see him coming back) he works i dont if i came back wood i have to pay his tithing? i dont understand it.

[HiJolly]

dos any1 no who is suppose to pay tithing? myself and my husband are both inactive (and i cant see him coming back) he works i dont if i came back wood i have to pay his tithing? i dont understand it.

You would not have to pay his tithing. You would only have to pay tithing on what you earn. At least that is my understanding.

HiJolly

[mnn727]

You would not have to pay his tithing. You would only have to pay tithing on what you earn. At least that is my understanding.

HiJolly

Correct, if you become active and choose to pay tithing, you would only pay it on your income, not on your husbands income. If you have no income of your own, and thus paid no tithing, you would still be considered a full tithe payer I believe.