How Much Does Satan Know?

[muirtle]

This is my first time asking anything on here so I hope this is not a stupid question. How much did Satan know about the plan before the "Fall" because if he had a perfect knowledge of it why would he tempt Adam and Eve in the garden? If you would have not tempted them they would have been stuck there and nobody could come down and have a mortal body, and by doing that would that not ruin the plan more than anything else?

[LdsNana]

This is my first time asking anything on here so I hope this is not a stupid question. How much did Satan know about the plan before the "Fall" because if he had a perfect knowledge of it why would he tempt Adam and Eve in the garden? If you would have not tempted them they would have been stuck there and nobody could come down and have a mortal body, and by doing that would that not ruin the plan more than anything else?

Actually, I am quite impressed with your question, as it is very thought provoking. Good job. :)

Off the top of my head... Just like ALL of God's children in the pre-mortal life, we ALL were presented with the Plan, at the Council in Heaven... Including Lucifer. And even at that, he felt that he had a better idea of how to accomplish God's work. But unfortunately, although Lucifer was very intelligent and even was one who had authority in the pre-mortal existence, he did not have the mind of God. Therefore, he could not understand really what the atonement was all about. The atonement required, that would enable the Father to allow the Son to Judge His children, required a Perfect Sacrifice... one that, as we know... would have a unique set of parents -- God the Father and a mortal and pure vessel in Mary, the mother of Jesus. In this Perfect life that Jesus lived, He was sinless, and He came to love us as Perfect as our Father in Heaven.

Satan never had and never will have the ability to love, nor will he ever understand grace and mercy, which are attributes that are PERFECTED in both the Father and the Son.

It is my belief, that for this reason... which is, that Satan cannot and does not know the mind of God, because he cannot comprehend it... he is unable to act fully to undermine the Plan of Salvation

For instance, AGENCY, is a thing and THE very thing, that Lucifer wanted to withhold from us when he presented 'his' plan. (but remember there was only ever one plan) So, take away their FREEDOM to CHOOSE... how? Don't put no no's out in front of them, and then tell them NO, OR only give them ALL positive choices??? What about LAW or commandments? Which results in consequences... ( totally speculating here on how Satan proposed to accomplish this)

In order for us to ACT, these circumstances are required...

1. OPPOSITION

2. AGENCY - THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE FOR OURSELVES - FREEDOM

3. COMMANDMENTS/LAW

This formula, then has the result of consequences according to CHOICE!

What we need to understand about OPPOSITION, is that ALL things have an opposition. Meaning all things ARE a compound in ONE. Every choice we make can be used for good and evil, NOT good OR evil. This is VERY important to understand.

Lehi tells his son Jacob that if this was not so, neither wickedness or righteousness could be brought to pass!

Now, give this some thought, when considering what God's plan IS through His Son, and then what Lucifer thought was a good idea?

He does not understand that through opposition, God can take anything (choice within the compound) and IF then a person turns to Christ and accepts His atoning sacrifice... God will use it for their GOOD, to bring to pass HIS plan, which is... He told Joseph while in Liberty Jail -- that all these things shall give thee experience...

to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man!

So, the fact that Satan cannot understand ALL of these wonderful attributes, powers, principles, etc... means again, that he has no ability to know the mind of God. So, no matter how intelligent or smart or brilliant he is, he is no god...

What Satan does know, is LAW and JUSTICE!

For this reason, he is happy to help get us to earth, a telestial world, where he and his legions can tempt and try us here, and also possess disobedient bodies! First off, he did NOT believe that Jesus Christ WOULD complete the atonement, NOR did or does he believe you or I can keep our covenants, and so because he does not understand the POWER of the atonement... he has NO clue what judgement day will be like?

He still believes that JUSTICE will get many of us! What fun he thinks he is having as many of us... no all of us are not perfect covenant keepers... But, remember... he just does not understand the atonement.

I just know that he is going to be MAJOR ticked off, when he sees GRACE and MERCY satisfy the DEMANDS of JUSTICE! As those who have done their best to walk in the light, although not perfect as Christ, nevertheless, they did keep their covenants and in so doing, they apply the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and they are judged CLEAN and given entrance into the Kingdom, to dwell with God!

Again, Satan just will never get it!

And, remember, these are only my thoughts... and certainly not the teachings of the church. Although everything I did say about opposition, agency, law, compound in one, etc... that is correctly taught.

Hope this gives some insight to help you figure this out... as it is very interesting to consider, isn't it?

[MorningStar]

This is my first time asking anything on here so I hope this is not a stupid question. How much did Satan know about the plan before the "Fall" because if he had a perfect knowledge of it why would he tempt Adam and Eve in the garden? If you would have not tempted them they would have been stuck there and nobody could come down and have a mortal body, and by doing that would that not ruin the plan more than anything else?

I think he knew a lot about the plan and though the Fall gave Adam and Eve a chance to progress, it gave Satan a chance to drag more souls to Hell with him. I think even if he could bring only one soul, he still would've tempted them. I think he also wanted to make people miserable in their mortal state. That's my theory. It wasn't enough for him to take one third of the spirits with him. He wanted to be powerful.

[palabras_ardientes]

Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 3:7

"And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, for he had drawn away many after him; and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God; wherefore, he sought to destroy the world."

Satan does not know the mind of God, and did not, or else he never would have tempted Adam and Eve, because he would have understood that only in Adam and Eve never partaking of the fruit would God's plan have been frustrated. So the only thing Satan really understood was that Adam and Eve had received a commandment from the Lord to not partake of the fruit. Satan, knowing of that commandment, wanted only to make them break the commandment.

[muirtle]

Those are all great well said thoughts and that's why I posted it I just think it is interesting. My only thing about him just not knowing seems weird because of all the things that he knows I would assume that he could put two and two together in regards to the fall. I know that he does not know the mind of God but a big part of the plan is coming down here which he knew, and if he saw Adam and eve not being able to sin I would think that he would know what that meant. I wonder if he was just so filled with pride and anger that he didn't care and just wanted a chance to prove that he could ruin the plan. I don't know, I am thinking out loud, but I know that this is not a huge question and I am not really worried about it I just wanted to hear what some people thought because I have been impressed reading so many posts.

[Traveler]

This is my first time asking anything on here so I hope this is not a stupid question. How much did Satan know about the plan before the "Fall" because if he had a perfect knowledge of it why would he tempt Adam and Eve in the garden? If you would have not tempted them they would have been stuck there and nobody could come down and have a mortal body, and by doing that would that not ruin the plan more than anything else?

I believe Satan knew about the plan of salvation. I believe he knew that Adam and Eve would, at some time, partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I believe the reason Satan did what he did - knowing what he knows, is because when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit he wanted to happen on his terms. I think he achieved exactly what he planned to do.

I also believe he is far more capable of manipulating behavior than most are willing to recognize. The scriptures say he leads people around with a “flaxen cord” which is symbolic of his ability to entice away any resistance.

The Traveler

[LdsNana]

Those are all great well said thoughts and that's why I posted it I just think it is interesting. My only thing about him just not knowing seems weird because of all the things that he knows I would assume that he could put two and two together in regards to the fall. I know that he does not know the mind of God but a big part of the plan is coming down here which he knew, and if he saw Adam and eve not being able to sin I would think that he would know what that meant. I wonder if he was just so filled with pride and anger that he didn't care and just wanted a chance to prove that he could ruin the plan. I don't know, I am thinking out loud, but I know that this is not a huge question and I am not really worried about it I just wanted to hear what some people thought because I have been impressed reading so many posts.

Just keep this in mind, as much as the smartest men here upon the earth know about this and that... you know the ones of which I speak... scholars, scientist, etc... and we must continually deal with the ongoing debates, in wherein they refuse to accept any truth that does not come from a research book, where the research has been 'peer reviewed' or a theory sounds right to a group of learned men who surely would KNOW, because of their incredible I.Q.'s, and of course we know this can change, if and when more information comes along...

Thus, they toss aside that truth, which has come directly from the Creator of the Universe, directly through His Spirit, to the humble follower of His Son... and this because they, with all their knowledge, have not yet discovered the laws upon which God can communicate to His children, and this because of their pride.

Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you...

You said that you don't think this is a huge question... but really when one does give it the thought the it should be given, we realize that there is so much for us to learn about submitting our will to those things that the Lord requires of us, and the consequences that result, either way.

I love knowing that God gives us commandments so, that through our obedience to His laws, He may then bless us in ways that will bring us joy, not only at the moment, but also toward our progressing in our return unto Him.

Don't fall for that which gives Satan more credit than God in bringing about His Plan... The Plan of Salvation is God's Plan for the Salvation and Exaltation of His children. The formula, which he put in place, and of which brought about the Fall... was His Perfect math, and according to His knowledge of that which He brought forth...

Remember... Satan himself, was and is, a part of God's formula, to bring to pass His Perfect Results, of which there was only one possible answer... The Fall!

God is a perfect mathematician.

[tubaloth]

If you would have not tempted them they would have been stuck there and nobody could come down and have a mortal body, and by doing that would that not ruin the plan more than anything else?

Yes and no, That would have frustrated the plan of salvation (but God would never have let that happen). But it would have frustrated what Satan wanted also. We realize that the reason Satan was cast out wasn’t because he proposed another plan, it was because Satan wanted all the Glory and Honor and really to become Higher then God. Because of Satan’s pride (which somebody else mentioned) Satan’s GOAL if you can call it that is to have followers. To be a Ruler you need somebody to be subject to you. Somebody that you can controller. This is what Satan wants.

I think Satan knew the Plan of Salvation so well that if he could just stop the Atonement this could happen:

(2 Nephi 9:8-9.)

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

Satan knew the only chance he had of gaining followers for his “kingdom” was to have Adam and Eve fall. We can see from the start with Cain, that Satan wanted Cain to follow Satan!

This is what keeps satan going even these day (even after the Atonement was accomplished). Satan still believes he can gain one more follower. I do think the day well come when Satan realizes he hasn’t “won” anything or even “frustrated” the plan. (Maybe he realizes that now somewhat). But I do think that Satan gets some strange joy (if satan can have joy in his work) that when he temps us and we give into that temptation, that he feels like he is god in some degree, that he is some ruler over us.

Remember... Satan himself, was and is, a part of God's formula, to bring to pass His Perfect Results, of which there was only one possible answer... The Fall!

I do disagree with this statement but that’s where the thread of if Satan is Part of the Plan of Salvation comes in. I would comment there but its kind of long. The Short answer is Satan is not Part of God’s Formula, God doesn’t need satan to fulfill his Desires, or plan.

[palabras_ardientes]

Yes and no, That would have frustrated the plan of salvation (but God would never have let that happen). But it would have frustrated what Satan wanted also. We realize that the reason Satan was cast out wasn’t because he proposed another plan, it was because Satan wanted all the Glory and Honor and really to become Higher then God. Because of Satan’s pride (which somebody else mentioned) Satan’s GOAL if you can call it that is to have followers. To be a Ruler you need somebody to be subject to you. Somebody that you can controller. This is what Satan wants.

I think Satan knew the Plan of Salvation so well that if he could just stop the Atonement this could happen:

Satan knew the only chance he had of gaining followers for his “kingdom” was to have Adam and Eve fall. We can see from the start with Cain, that Satan wanted Cain to follow Satan!

This is what keeps satan going even these day (even after the Atonement was accomplished). Satan still believes he can gain one more follower. I do think the day well come when Satan realizes he hasn’t “won” anything or even “frustrated” the plan. (Maybe he realizes that now somewhat). But I do think that Satan gets some strange joy (if satan can have joy in his work) that when he temps us and we give into that temptation, that he feels like he is god in some degree, that he is some ruler over us.

I do disagree with this statement but that’s where the thread of if Satan is Part of the Plan of Salvation comes in. I would comment there but its kind of long. The Short answer is Satan is not Part of God’s Formula, God doesn’t need satan to fulfill his Desires, or plan.

But God does allow Satan to act against us for our betterment. The story of Job is a great example.

As opinion, I would say the moment Christ's atonement was complete was the moment that Satan knew he'd lost. So he is trying to get as many to follow him as he possibly can, but they are the desperate attempts of a being who knows he's lost.

[Traveler]

But God does allow Satan to act against us for our betterment. The story of Job is a great example.

As opinion, I would say the moment Christ's atonement was complete was the moment that Satan knew he'd lost. So he is trying to get as many to follow him as he possibly can, but they are the desperate attempts of a being who knows he's lost.

Have you considered that Satan is quite happy is seeing the covenant sons and daughters of G-d suffer pain - even for a short time?

The Traveler

[ztodd]

Have you considered that Satan is quite happy is seeing the covenant sons and daughters of G-d suffer pain - even for a short time?

The Traveler

Hmm, interesting thought... is he happy for a short time when he sees us suffer? I guess maybe you could say that, or at least that he laughs / rejoices in our sufferings- 3 Ne 9:2 says "...the devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen!" But then again, 2 Ne 2:18 says "...because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind". So actually he is miserable forever.

[palabras_ardientes]

Hmm, interesting thought... is he happy for a short time when he sees us suffer? I guess maybe you could say that, or at least that he laughs / rejoices in our sufferings- 3 Ne 9:2 says "...the devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen!" But then again, 2 Ne 2:18 says "...because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind". So actually he is miserable forever.

I agree. I have considered, and would accept that the only remote semblance of corrupted pleasure left to Satan is when he is able to lure the covenant sons and daughters of our Father away from the straight and narrow path. He is miserable eternally, however, as stated above. We could cite one other scriptural classic here, "wickedness never was happiness."

[tubaloth]

As opinion, I would say the moment Christ's atonement was complete was the moment that Satan knew he'd lost. So he is trying to get as many to follow him as he possibly can, but they are the desperate attempts of a being who knows he's lost.

I don’t know if Satan really believes he has lost. There has to be still something in it for Satan, even if he does believe that he can get one more person to follow him, or even if he believes if gets a Majority (like in the pre-mortal life) to follow him. Satan is still in it to win it! Even thought we know he won’t, or nor can’t.

[MorningStar]

I don’t know if Satan really believes he has lost. There has to be still something in it for Satan, even if he does believe that he can get one more person to follow him, or even if he believes if gets a Majority (like in the pre-mortal life) to follow him. Satan is still in it to win it! Even thought we know he won’t, or nor can’t.

Yeah, I think he's delusional and still thinks he has a chance to win.

[Traveler]

Yeah, I think he's delusional and still thinks he has a chance to win.

Delusional? In comparison to who? To the hoards and masses that have found their way through Satan’s delusion and are firmly entrenched in “The Way”.

It has been my impression that the occupants of the “Great and Spacious Building” will out number (by more than a few) those that hold fast to the iron rod finding their way along the “Straight and Narrow Path”.

The Traveler

[palabras_ardientes]

Yeah, I think he's delusional and still thinks he has a chance to win.

I really do respect your opinion on this. It's something that we may not find out for sure until after, but I just feel(by way of my own personal opinion) that Satan is far too intelligent, with far to incisive a mind to actually believe that in general he can still win. That doesn't mean that it isn't a victory to him when he is able to win over the souls of men. But I don't think that changes the fact that despite those victories, he knows that he has lost, and that in the end the Almighty Father of us all is going to deal with him according to what he has earned. The doctrine on his fate isn't hidden. Satan knows our gospel far better than we do. How else could he alter things with such astute subtlety that so many think they are still doing right according to doctrine when they are really off-base? I also think that, despite him knowing that he will have one last chance following the millennium to reign freely upon the earth, and that after that he will be consigned to his final fate in "outer darkness", that he is still going to work just as hard during that period of time to sway as many souls as he can. I also can't help but call to mind the examples of devils from the bible who were instantly able to recognize the Savior and His servants, even when the vast majority of the "covenant" and "chosen" people rejected them.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but isn't it true that the veil is not drawn over the adversary and his minions? Is it not true that with such, they would still remember each and every one of us from pre-mortality, and that they remember the realities and teachings from that pre-mortal realm with perfect clarity, despite their having gone contrary to them(which makes them sons of perdition in the first place)?

[Guest Hammer]

This is my first time asking anything on here so I hope this is not a stupid question. How much did Satan know about the plan before the "Fall" because if he had a perfect knowledge of it why would he tempt Adam and Eve in the garden? If you would have not tempted them they would have been stuck there and nobody could come down and have a mortal body, and by doing that would that not ruin the plan more than anything else?

Maybe he knew but didn't understand how it all worked. Perhaps he thought it would thwart God's plan to cause them to break the first commandment.

[MorningStar]

This will probably be my last post in this thread for now because I don't like focusing on the adversary, but I do think Satan is intelligent, but even intelligent people can be delusional. As it says in 2 Nephi 24:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north;

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.

It sounds like he thought he could be even more powerful than God, which is rather delusional. It's true that Satan and his minions have not passed through the veil, but I don't believe them to be all knowing and I think their misery affects their logic. I don't think they know the future. If they did, I don't think they would have chosen the path they did. Satan can win some battles, but he can't win the war. That's how I see it. I'm not sure if he still thinks he can win the war, but I wouldn't be surprised if he does believe that.

[LdsNana]

Have you considered that Satan is quite happy is seeing the covenant sons and daughters of G-d suffer pain - even for a short time?

The Traveler

Happy is a state of mind, and a gift to those that choose righteousness.

Happy? No...

But I am sure he finds, if even for brief moments, some form of pleasure and satisfaction in his work, which is an indication of the evil that he is. And most likely all that he is able to experience, as he has not a body, and will never know any feelings concerning righteousness. Nor has he been granted the opportunity to experience for himself, opposition, which allows for one to then know differences or contrasts for themselves, because of consequence. Therefore, it is not possible to receive a complete knowledge or understanding of THE forces of energy.

For him and others like him, their ability to 'feel', can only come from the carnal and sensual imitations of this world, as they at-'tempt', for the moment, to experience literally anything, but is not that, which will or can last... for their existence continually, is digressing toward the only complete and final state of darkness... which is 'emptiness', and is eternal.

A fullness of 'truth', other than evil, is all he will ever know or comprehend, for in that darkness, which is what he used his agency, to choose, prematurely for himself... is his reward.

He may think himself bright, but to credit Him with any ability to See What G-d Sees, or to Know What and Who G-d Knows, and to FEEL What G-d IS, Who is MERCY... gives this lacking, of any form of light, way too much credit, IMHO.

He only knows deception, according to the truth that is in him... and with that, he has deceived himself and still, even now... recruits those he 'thinks' he is able to convince, by attempting to deceive them, here and in this very temporary and mortal state of, 'God's College'... as his way to achieve his own glory.

He never did and never will, comprehend The Universal Plan of Salvation, for God's children, who kept their FIRST estate...

even Jesus Christ, Who IS, our Savior and Redeemer, from both death and hell, AND from before the foundation of this world!

[LdsNana]

I do disagree with this statement but that’s where the thread of if Satan is Part of the Plan of Salvation comes in. I would comment there but its kind of long. The Short answer is Satan is not Part of God’s Formula, God doesn’t need satan to fulfill his Desires, or plan.

Hi,

I would enjoy hearing your comments, in these regards. Opposition is how God is able to bring about the entire Plan of Salvation... If Satan were not allowed to tempt and to try us, when God allows him, neither wickedness or righteousness could be brought to pass.

2 Ne. 2: 10-11, 15

10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

The entire question of, what does satan know, or how much... has everything to do with God's Plan, and the laws by which He brings it about... IMHO. IF not, this entire discussion is mote.

I look forward to your comments on this topic...