Julie B. Beck and her Talk "Mothers Who Know"

[Elgama]

SHE better SHOW YOU she's willing to abandon any hopes of her own choice just to pro-create with you????? And what do YOU have to do to SHOW HER that her life and dreams are just as important as yours??? You speak as if she's some maid who has to please you. If my husband said to me, you'd better be ready to drop your career to prove to me Im more important I'd have given him a slap and probably filed for divorce!! There are dinosaurs in the church after all.

I have to say I am with Aphrodite my husband I have joint hope and dreams and it goes both ways its through my husbands encrouragenlment and with him help that he enables me to study and grow as well as himself. Amazing man he is lol and whilst my desire is to raise my children is strong - what would you do if your uneducated daughters in laws became widows or their husbands ran off?

-Charley

[Aphrodite]

Thats what I always say Charley-Life is not perfect, my husband could die or be injured and not be able to work. Then what?? I actually think it's irresponsible to procreate for the sake of procreating when you are not financially stable or dont have solid careers. I tell you what also, if I decided to just sit at home all day doing housework Im sure my husband would have something to say about it!! We're equals, so we share bringing in money and we will share childcare if and when we have kids. He's a true new man my hubby. He's great :)

[Moksha]

I think the key to avoid misunderstandings is to understand where Sister Beck is coming from.

Hope this helps.

[Vanessa2]

I don't think Sis. Beck talked about all the different scenarios and choices women could have because then people would use them as excuses. "Sis. Beck said it was ok for women to work outside the home when..." We all know that sometimes people will take counsel and twist it so it fits their situations. I think Sis. Beck was emphasizing the what should be every family's first priority for the role of mothers. Yes, there are acceptable situations where women must work outside the home. Yes, there probably situations where it'd be acceptable for the father to stay home (ie health reasons, etc.). But what would be the point of Sis. Beck spending her whole talk discussing the"What ifs?" It would simply take away from the message she was trying to convey.

In addition, I really don't think there are many situations where individuals besides a capable mother and father should be raising their children (except situations of abuse, death, etc.). It is the parents responsibility, not the daycare's.

Sis. Beck was trying to get women to get their priorities straight, not oppress them.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It reminds me of something David O. McKay said about no amount of success being able to compensate for failure in the home. Our children are the next generation of humanity. They should be our number one priority.

[Aphrodite]

Yes, there are acceptable situations where women must work outside the home.

So what if the only reason they work outside the home is because they WANT to? Is that a 'sin' in Sister Beck's or the Lord's eyes???

[SmilingRedhead]

This is a quote from The Family: A Proclamation to the World...

"The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God's eternal plan.

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. "Children are an heritage of the Lord" (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations."

So I understand this to mean that if the priority and desire of any particular woman is to set a career and personal success before their children (born or unborn) then that goes against God’s commandment.

If the woman can't have children (whether it's due to not being married or infertility) - then it's what's in her heart that counts... would she have loved to have children one day if she could or would she still prefer spending most of her time working on a career.

I'm not saying to get married as young as possible and pop out as many kids as you can until menopause kicks in just for the sake of it (each to their own of course). I personally believe that Heavenly Father wants us to carefully plan our families. I think it involves prayerful consideration on how many kids we can have whilst still being able to meet all their (and our own) personal physical and spiritual needs.

But as I said before I think it’s the priority and desire in the heart that counts – are we truly being the best person (mother/wife/sister/friend/individual/whatever) we can be, striving to mature and develop in the Gospel and do we have a genuine desire to follow the Lord’s commandments. If we are truly genuinely striving towards these things then I believe we will gain a certain understanding, knowledge and outlook on life – ‘we will know’- and that’s what I feel Sister Beck meant with her talk.

:)

[Elgama]

my issue was more with KingDavid than Julie Beck lol - she did her job, and I am less angry with Relief Society right now so the talk is less of a problem. I do still see disillusionment amongst Sisters right now and would love to see talks specifically aimed at us feeling good about who we are but maybe we will see that over the next year as its the direction that the Young Womens General Conference is going. If not Sister Beck has her calling and there is no suggestion she is anything other than a Woman of God and she is teaching for the whole church so what may be right for my area may not be what the church as a whole needs, thats why we have Stake Conference and Branch Conference.

David's post may not have been intentional but smacked of unrighteous dominion whilst its his right to pick a lovely wife who is happy to his bidding its not his right to demand anything of his daughters in law that is between them and their husband.

I know what he said was not against church doctrine but it was badly put and would make me run a mile if a man spoke like that in my presence. My husband does not need to demand things we work together and if he started he'd be out on his ear.

-Charley

[Vanessa2]

The General Authorities of this church do not want a stupid people; they do not want members of the church to blindly accept everything that is taught. They want us to struggle with it, study it out, pray about it, and gain a testimony of it, so I appreciate where you're coming from. The idea of the church actually stating they want mothers in the home was one of them for me, but now I have a testimony of it...and I don't even have kids. When I was younger, I knew I was going to have a great career. However, as I realized this isn't really a concept they (General Authorities) mince words on, I tried to read more about it, understand it better, and pray about it. It didn't come all at once, but I feel like I understand better what they are saying and why they are saying it. I would encourage you to do same; read other talks given on the subject, study the scriptures, and pray about it.

I didn't want be a baby factory; no way, no how. But you know what? The more I read and studied, the more I realized that's not what they are saying. They aren't saying have kids, raise kids, don't ever come out of your house. In fact, the authorities are very careful to say that parents should not have more children than they can provide for financially, spiritually, and emotionally. Families need to be planned carefully and prayerfully. As for the role of women, never has there been an authority that said women only take care of the children and they should find fulfillment in just doing that. What they have said is that women need to proud of being mothers at home, but they have every right to seek fulfillment in other things whether it is in service, in hobbies, in friends, etc. What they discourage is activities that take away from the time/energy spent making the home the place it is supposed to be. Everyone, including General Authorities, knows that human beings need a variety of activities to stay sane...same goes for mothers. Women are encouraged to get as much education is possible for the same reasons you listed (injury or death of a spouse, etc.) and also because it takes smart women to raise smart children. Again, the church does not want stupid members that blindly follow. I have a 4-year degree, have been married for 2 years, no children, have a leadership position at my work, find fulfillment in what I do, and I am gaining more education through online classes. However, I know that when my husband and I have children, all that will have to take a back seat to my family (which isn't a big stretch since I put them first now, too) and that may mean not working for a while, only working part-time, trying to work from home, etc.. I think that's what the authorities want, but those decisions must be made prayerfully.

This counsel for women to stay home is not restrictive on women the same way the Word of Wisdom is not restrictive to all members. Both are, in fact, freeing. This counsel is not oppressive in the same way standards of modesty are not oppressive. I could go on. You could look at all commandments as just keeping us down, but we all know they lift us up. Same goes for this one.

I cannot think to name all the possible situations where it would be 'acceptable' for the mother to work outside the home, but the biggest would be if, for some reason, the father was unable to work due to injury, etc. I do not know if 'wanting' to is acceptable to work outside the home; that's between you, your husband, and the Lord and something that should be prayed about. But we have to make sure that our (mothers') 'wants' do not get in the way of what our children need...a constant mother.

[Aphrodite]

This counsel for women to stay home is not restrictive on women the same way the Word of Wisdom is not restrictive to all members. Both are, in fact, freeing. This counsel is not oppressive in the same way standards of modesty are not oppressive. I could go on. You could look at all commandments as just keeping us down, but we all know they lift us up. Same goes for this one.

I cannot think to name all the possible situations where it would be 'acceptable' for the mother to work outside the home, but the biggest would be if, for some reason, the father was unable to work due to injury, etc. I do not know if 'wanting' to is acceptable to work outside the home; that's between you, your husband, and the Lord and something that should be prayed about. But we have to make sure that our (mothers') 'wants' do not get in the way of what our children need...a constant mother.

I see what you're saying but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I believe wanting to work IS acceotable as I know that I would go absolutely nuts sat at home with a screaming baby all day and no one to talk to. I would need to work for my own sanity.

As for modesty not being oppressive-I strongly disagree on that front too. Anyone or anything that tries to control something as personal as your dress, is extremely oppressive. I see the muslim women in their all over black outfits with just their eyes showing (very common in my town) and I think how awfully oppressed muslim women are. It is very oppressive to have your dress and appearance controlled by an outside force. I only realised once I went through the temple and wore garments how it makes you feel-It was a bad feeling, I was glad to get them off.

Anyhow, thanks for your thoughts.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I have never felt oppressed by wearing temple garments. To me it is a good feeling.

[Aphrodite]

I guess we're all different Willow. :)

[Elgama]

I have to say most of my female Muslim friends also feel very liberated by wearing the Hijab - but maybe its because we are all of similar personality lol I like the idea of not having to worry about bad hair days or in case of my friend that covers her face she likes avoiding comments about her appearance and feels she is taken for who she is not what she looks like.

Like Willow I don't mind my garments - like my Muslim friends I find modesty liberating, its my passport to being comfy in my clothes and to people like my friend who covers her face being taken for who I am not what I wear.

-Charley

[Vanessa2]

Perhaps, part of your role in this life includes working, but we should never think of ourselves as being the exception to the commandments and counsels given...that's how get ourselves into trouble (I know from experience). I guess the only thing I can do is encourage anyone who struggles with this issue to study and pray about it; it really shouldn't be as easy as saying "I don't want to, so I'm not going to." We should do the best we can at obeying all the commandments and counsels of the general authorities, even if we fall short, the Lord knows where our hearts are.

I definitely agree with Elgama, modesty is liberating for many women of all faiths. The fact that members of our church and Muslims are asked to be modst is not restrictive, the manner in which it is enforced is what makes it restrictive. Needless to say, there is no modesty police for our church, so it's not really restrictive; we have a choice. Some Muslim women are in a situation where they do not have the choice in what they wear without risking serious consequences; at that point, their liberties are being restricted, not because they are asked to be modest but because of the unrighteous dominion over them that forces them to be modest.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard someone say they got a bad feeling from wearing their garments. That's interesting to me. The garment is not just about modesty, it is a symbol of the covenants we made with our Heavenly Father in the temple and are a protection spiritually and physically from Satan. Why would anyone who understands what they garment is get a bad feeling from wearing them? I understand the garment is not convenient when it comes to trying to find cute clothes, taking them off when we work out only to put them back on again, etc., but whenever I get frustrated with those things, I remember what the garment really is: a protection and reminder.

The interesting thing about the Word of Wisdom is that when that revelation was given, there were no studies that said tobacco, alcohol, etc. were bad for the body. The Saints back then didn't know any better; the only thing they knew was that's what the prophet said, so they followed it (not everyone at first, it took time). I'm sure there were Saints who said, "Why shouldn't I be able to enjoy a chew? There's nothing wrong with it and I like it, so I'm going to." However, over time we've learned that the revelation of the Word of Wisdom was truly from God in it's foresightness (is that a word?). I believe it is probably the same thing with women staying home. We may not completely understand it now and see it as restrictive, but I think as Saints we have a responsbility to struggle with it and gain a testimony of it because I'm sure in the future we will see the wisdom and foresightness (again, a word?) of this counsel, as with the Word Wisdom. All of the revelations given to the General Authorities come from God and we should treat them as such.

I hope you don't take anything I wrote offensively, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

[Elgama]

Some Muslim women are in a situation where they do not have the choice in what they wear without risking serious consequences; at that point, their liberties are being restricted, not because they are asked to be modest but because of the unrighteous dominion over them that forces them to be modest.

There are plenty of women in abusive relationships everywhere that are allowed no choice in their clothing - even women or for that matter men forced to wear very immodest clothing. Its little to do with a dress code and a whole lot to do with being abused and is wrong in any setting

-Charley

[Aphrodite]

Needless to say, there is no modesty police for our church

HAHA! Are you kidding? When the rule for youth was in place to wear Sunday dress for mutual the leaders TURNED AWAY some of the youth as they wern't appropriately dressed, I've had grown women physically put their hands on me to pull my top up or down or whichever way they feel is more appropriate, I've had people say to me, ooh your skirt is a bit short (knee length with a split up the back) and Ive had the Bishop condemn me for wearing black trousers to a funeral. Oh the modesty police are alive and kicking in my ward! No one is more judgemental about your appearance than church members. Im sure the Saviour is more bothered about my works and whats in my heart than whats on my body. Isn't there some scripture about our works condeming or saving us??? Thats whats important.

I got bad vibes from the temple as well as the garments. The feeling that in any other circumstance, members would tell me was 'Satan'. I did what any member would with those bad feelings-avoid the place and the garments!! I feel liberated when I can dress myself according to my own strictures. I don't feel liberated with restrictions.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Our Bishop's wife came to a funeral in our chapel yesterday in black trousers and a smart black jacket.

[utcowboy]

May I add my two cents???

Aphrodite, you say that you or some of the youth were turned away because of their dress. Think about this for a minute, how are you effecting those around you?? What are the men or young men thinking when they look at your attire?? I know, its not your problem what they think... but it is, your are, in a since, work for the advesary when you ware inappropriate clothing. You are causing thought that should not be there. Have you every thought that the bad feelings you got at the temple or from wearing your garments came from the devil?? He has the ability to act as an angel of the light!!

I'm not trying to make you mad, I just want you to think beyond yourself and see how your action affect those around you. Best wishes

[sixpacktr]

Aphrodite,

Maybe the time has come for you to remember why you are a member of the church. Most if not all of your posts rail against some aspect of the church, and while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, negativity is a Satanic tool, not one of the Spirit.

I won't list the things you are against, or ridicule, or feel that others are judging you about, because that really isn't the point of my post. Rather, you need to determine for yourself if you believe that Jesus is the Christ. If you do believe that, do you believe that Joseph Smith actually saw him and restored the gospel to the earth? If you do, do you believe that that authority of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator has continued down to Thomas Monson?

I feel that you need to re-focus on what you do believe in, and then go by faith from there, instead of stating that somehow you are different from the rest of the church and that the things we all hold dear don't apply to you. Pls don't take this in the wrong light. I am not condemning you in any way. But I sense from your posts a lot, A LOT of anger towards the church. You need to determine why that is, and if you believe the basic tenets about JS, the BoM, the atonement, etc., you need to focus on those and let the other stuff go that is creating all this anger.

I fear that you are being led down a primrose path due to your pride, and that is a demon we all must fight constantly...it is probably the strongest 'flaxen cord' Satan has in his arsenal, because we willingly allow ourselves to be led because it justifies our behavior more than anything else...

God bless you in your journey...

[Vanessa2]

Elagama, you put much better what I was trying to say in regards to being forced to be modest. Being modest isn't restrictive, it's only when the enforcement of it becomes abusive that it becomes a problem. Thanks.

Aphrodite, I'll admit the first time I went to the temple it wasn't what I expected and I was a little weirded out. Certainly that's not unusual. In fact, before I got married my mom's best friend told me she received her endowment right before her wedding and cried because she knew at that point the church was wrong and she was about to marry a man who thought it was true. She went through with the wedding and has returned to the temple and told me she has had many wonderful experiences there. The trick is to keep going. The same for me and many other members. The more you go, the more you realize what a wonderful place the temple is and how strong the spirit is. We would not be counseled to go to the temple if it were a bad place. When have the authorities ever told us to do something that is bad for us? Many beautiful discourses have been given on the greatness of the temples; you should read some of them.

[Elgama]

I agree with Vanessa, a combination of problems means the temple ceremonies are everything I find difficult and exhausting, and only reason it wasn't weird was I had a good knowledge of the bible it is very definitely a learning process.

And you get jerks at church just like everywhere else - personally I go to church in trousers and a top quite often - I feel uncomfortable in tights and a lot of skirts and have decided if my outfit detracts from what I am supposed to be learning then a smart trouser outfit is better.

-Charley

[Guest tomk]

Mothers Who Know

This is a link to her talk.

I have heard alot of people got upset over the contents of her talk, and i would like to know why. I thought it was beautiful and inspiring. And my wife, who isn't even a member of the church (yet) Loved her talk.

I would like to ask you girls (and guys) what you honestly thought about it.

It was a wonderful talk, and an invitation to all mothers for greatness.

Sometimes our thoughts condemn us, and we revile against that which is pure and good (cuz we feel like a chord has been struck).

[Aphrodite]

What are the men or young men thinking when they look at your attire

They love it. I get comments every week on how good I look. Im not joking, The young women seek me out to say how they love what Im wearing. Usually because its church dresses. Just goes to show the fundamentality of our ward when they think a molly dress is inappropriate. And if it does affect them, they need to get a life.

Have you every thought that the bad feelings you got at the temple or from wearing your garments came from the devil??

LOL. Blame the good 'ol devil for a different viewpoint and free thinking.

Aphrodite,

Maybe the time has come for you to remember why you are a member of the church. Most if not all of your posts rail against some aspect of the church, and while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, negativity is a Satanic tool, not one of the Spirit.

I won't list the things you are against, or ridicule, or feel that others are judging you about, because that really isn't the point of my post. Rather, you need to determine for yourself if you believe that Jesus is the Christ. If you do believe that, do you believe that Joseph Smith actually saw him and restored the gospel to the earth? If you do, do you believe that that authority of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator has continued down to Thomas Monson?

I feel that you need to re-focus on what you do believe in, and then go by faith from there, instead of stating that somehow you are different from the rest of the church and that the things we all hold dear don't apply to you. Pls don't take this in the wrong light. I am not condemning you in any way. But I sense from your posts a lot, A LOT of anger towards the church. You need to determine why that is, and if you believe the basic tenets about JS, the BoM, the atonement, etc., you need to focus on those and let the other stuff go that is creating all this anger.

I fear that you are being led down a primrose path due to your pride, and that is a demon we all must fight constantly...it is probably the strongest 'flaxen cord' Satan has in his arsenal, because we willingly allow ourselves to be led because it justifies our behavior more than anything else...

God bless you in your journey...

Six, the reason I am a member at the moment is because of my husband and family. No other reason. And you're right, I am angry at the church, very angry. I'm angry that things have been kept from me in the churches history, which make a COMPLETELY different church. Im angry how it controls lives and certain people have power and can make decisions over you. Im angry how alledgedly Christian people judge you. I'm angry how it treats people who 'sin' and the guilt they feel over minor, growing up things. I'm angry how the institution only caters for families with kids and you are somehow not quite there if you are in anything other than that situation.

I suppose after 24 yrs I am just sick of all this and quite bitter how it has controlled my life, maybe thats why I am angry I dont know. Im angry at God for letting s*** things happen to me and my family when he can supposedly help. And Im even more angry at a man made church that claims to be the perfect truest ONLY church on earth and yet it can't deliver all that it professes. That makes me angry because I bought all of that hook line and sinker, and now I feel like a fool and I dont know my true identity anymore. So I have to try and find it away from the church,hence keeping it at arms length.

I know I come accross as negative in my posts but Im not really that person. Its only when it comes to the church. The church gets my anger. My family, husband, friends, my patients get my love and my real self.

I dont know if I believe in all what you asked-I suppose yes I believe in God and Jesus, but I dont KNOW, I dont think anyone can KNOW. I dont know what I think about the first vision, if it happened. There are so many different versions of it its hard to know which, if any, are true. I think TSM is a good man but a Prophet??hmm There's no way of knowing either really as I dont believe prayer is useful any longer. Ill have to wait until I die and see what happens then!

Thanks for your concern six. But I do not believe 'Satan' has any more influence over me than anything or anyone else! xx

[Elgama]

You know Aphrodite despite me having a strong testimony I do understand your post - there are times I am so mad at Heavenly Father for the stuff in my life and times I hate going to church. There are times I feel frustrated by people at church very much so - and I would love to leave and do something else.

Right now my testimony is strong and I have the fizz back in it but if I hadn't had the intial faith in God from a child and a similar situation to yourself I know leaving would destroy my marriage, I would have been off last year.

-Charley

[sixpacktr]

Aphrodite,

Anytime. I know that sometimes I come across as 'hard-line', and perhaps I am in some ways, but I also know that everyone has their own journey, and a loving HF always has them in mind and will help them at some time and in some way. I can tell from your posts you are a good, kind person, and infer from some comments that while your husband can exasperate you (that is, after all, our job!) you are crazy about him (your willingness to keep going to church for him tells me that).

I hope that someday something will spark that change of heart that will lead you back. I have seen that happen too many times to count. And while you don't know me from Adam except as we've crossed swords at times on this board, know that I do know that Jesus did atone for our sins, that Joseph Smith did see the Father and Son and restore the church back upon the earth, that the BoM is THE BOOK OF BOOKS, and that Thomas Monson is the Lord's prophet upon the earth today.

Try not to be too hard on us in the meantime....