An Educational Invitation

[MorningStar]

Hmm. That's interesting that part of it was omitted from The Ensign. That seems to indicate that it's not doctrine. Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" wasn't approved either and he had to take back some things he said.

[MorningStar]

Also, we should seek out good men who support the constitution, but what is constitutional is open to interpretation. :) From what I was reading, the Supreme Court decided at least 3 times that the Federal Reserve is constitutional.

[a-train]

Hmm. That's interesting that part of it was omitted from The Ensign. That seems to indicate that it's not doctrine. Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" wasn't approved either and he had to take back some things he said.

Nobody is saying that it is doctrine. The only reason to bring up the fact that Benson said anything about it is to demonstrate that it is not a subject extant only in the minds of crazy people. But also, we have been warned about the tyranny and deceit that will seek our overthrow in the last days. Certainly we are aware that there are criminals of every scope and type among us.

If this was a Republican forum I would bring up Senators, Congressmen, or the President who spoke out about this subject. Many men of good character and in good standing in Washington have spoken out about it.

The issue is simple. Should good latter-day saints vote for men who are party to a corporate interest that would enrich elites at the cost of the liberty and economy of the nation's citizens?

On the subject of the fractional reserve banking and the FED, there has already been a lot of talk on a different thread about it, but only a lawyer could somehow interpret the necessary and proper clause to allow the Congress to invest its power in a private unaudited corporation. And the Supreme Court DID find the FED to be private, not governmental.

By another stretch of definition only achievable by the smartest lawyers, handing the power the U.S. monetary policy to the small group of directors of this private unaudited institution doesn't constitute a money trust.

Regardless, we have to ask ourselves if it is honest for our government to arbitrarily spend the money sitting in our bank accounts without asking us. I personally don't find it to be honest, courteous, or enjoyable.

-a-train

[drjme]

What is everyone's apprehension here?

Denial, or at least trying to reduce the importance/reality of the message.

No, a prophet has NOT told us to read this book. An apostle has not told us to read this book. The Seceretary of Agriculture in 1971 told us to read it. He happened to be an apostle at the time, but he seemed to make it quite clear he was lending his government credentials to the book, not his apostolic credentials.

At what point does ETB differentiate between or separate his responsibilities to spiritual/temporal issues? especially since he is using scripture to notify LDS to Governmental responsibilities/problems. But then his warnings were given as a government official weren't they? An apostle is still an apostle no matter what 'credentials' he lends to the cause, in the same way, I presume, that your LDS beliefs permeate through every area of your life.

To add to that, LM, I would expect emphasis from later prophets on this subject, but I don't recall President Hinckley ever identifying the Federal Reserve as a secret combination. He has told us to be prepared, to vote our conscience, etc. If we need to be warned about something specific, I expect it will come from the prophet instead of someone in my ward who is in a panic.

Imagine the repercussions if our leaders were to identify specifically the powers that be that are the secret combinations? What worldly power do they (the SC) yield according to scripture? and how would that affect the mission of the church?

What makes me think, is how everyone here keeps saying 'they haven't told us specifically what it (Secret combinations) is, Where and when specifically, and we haven't been told specifically what to do:

.(A) neutralizer that the devil (uses) most effectively...is simply this: “Don’t do anything in the fight for freedom until the Church sets up its own program to save the Constitution.”...Maybe the Lord will never set up a specific Church program for the purpose of saving the Constitution. Perhaps if he set up one at this time it might split the Church asunder, and perhaps he does not want that to happen yet, for not all the wheat and tares are fully ripe. The Prophet Joseph Smith declared it will be the elders of Israel who will step forward to help save the Constitution, not the Church! (Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1965)

So will you wait to be instructed in all things?

but what is constitutional is open to interpretation.

only if you don't follow it. If God established the Constitution as shown in D&C98:

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.

How much is left open to interpretation?

[MorningStar]

Nobody is saying that it is doctrine. The only reason to bring up the fact that Benson said anything about it is to demonstrate that it is not a subject extant only in the minds of crazy people. But also, we have been warned about the tyranny and deceit that will seek our overthrow in the last days. Certainly we are aware that there are criminals of every scope and type among us.

If this was a Republican forum I would bring up Senators, Congressmen, or the President who spoke out about this subject. Many men of good character and in good standing in Washington have spoken out about it.

The issue is simple. Should good latter-day saints vote for men who are party to a corporate interest that would enrich elites at the cost of the liberty and economy of the nation's citizens?

On the subject of the fractional reserve banking and the FED, there has already been a lot of talk on a different thread about it, but only a lawyer could somehow interpret the necessary and proper clause to allow the Congress to invest its power in a private unaudited corporation. And the Supreme Court DID find the FED to be private, not governmental.

By another stretch of definition only achievable by the smartest lawyers, handing the power the U.S. monetary policy to the small group of directors of this private unaudited institution doesn't constitute a money trust.

Regardless, we have to ask ourselves if it is honest for our government to arbitrarily spend the money sitting in our bank accounts without asking us. I personally don't find it to be honest, courteous, or enjoyable.

-a-train

I'm just pointing out that not everything a General Authority says or has said is correct. That's all. As far as I know, we haven't had another prophet in the church try to alert us to the Federal Reserve being a conspiracy. It doesn't really matter to me because I can't do anything about it - All I can do is be prepared and vote for good people.

DrJme, there have been many disagreements on what is constitutional and what is not. It is not always interpreted the same way. And no, I don't have to be commanded in all things, but I don't need other members of the church telling me what I should be afraid of. The prophets tell us to be prepared. Showing me this "documentary" is about as lame as showing me a video telling me that the bird flu WILL become a pandemic. How does that help me? I can't stop it. It'll just give me nightmares. I can still be prepared though.

[drjme]

DrJme, there have been many disagreements on what is constitutional and what is not. It is not always interpreted the same way. And no, I don't have to be commanded in all things, but I don't need other members of the church telling me what I should be afraid of. The prophets tell us to be prepared. Showing me this "documentary" is about as lame as showing me a video telling me that the bird flu WILL become a pandemic. How does that help me? I can't stop it. It'll just give me nightmares. I can still be prepared though.

Hey morn,

I agree, the whole point of it is to be prepared, and do what you can to help in the cause for freedom, And help others to become prepared. The thing is the majority of people aren't prepared and don't really want to pay any attention to these issues, because of the 'babylonian' lifestyle that a lot of the people are seduced into, and may have to give up, or soon, be forced to give up because of economic conditions, they mock what they say not realizing they are honest people who are genuinely trying to help and are concerned about their fellow man's welfare. The point is If Leaders of the church were warning us that the the US constitution was in danger and being disregarded several decades ago, what is the situation now? How much more now?

I suppose the 'nightmare' issue is foretold in the BOM:

Ether 8:24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation.

'Awaking' is the hardest part, because we have to review and change a lot of what we thought we knew about the world, and some just aren't willing to do that.

[JohnBirchSociety]

OK, so since he was not yet an apostle: we shouldn't take his counsel and seek out good men who support the constitution and vote for them and support them? Because he was not an apostle: there is no corruption in Washington for us to avoid supporting? Because he was not yet in the twelve: his quotes of scripture and previous church leaders are incorrect?

What is everyone's apprehension here? Has anyone read that book he mentioned? Does anyone even know what is in it or what advice it carries?

Tell me precisely what it is about President Benson's talk or the statements he quoted from past leaders that should be discounted. I can find nothing in his statements that contradict other leaders or the scriptures. What am I missing here?

-a-train

I've read the book in question as well as many, many other books.

One book people may be VERY interested in reading is "An Enemy Hath Done This" by Benson.

In my public experience, across the nation in the past 25+ years, with LDS and with non-LDS, the clear conclusions of such paradigms as President Benson clearly held throughout his adult life in regards to liberty, are so scary that people can't get themselves to consider the possibility.

There are, my friends (an you all are), sick, evil, satanically inspired, super-wealthy people who have an insatiable desire to control their fellow man. This is not conspiracy talk, this is the reality of all of history. This is the reality of all of scripture. This is our unfortunate reality.

Our liberty is being sold in the name of security. Our property is being confiscated in the name of prosperity. Our labor is being redistributed (stolen) in the name of economic "stimulus". When will it end? Well, it certainly won't end if we ignore history. From the murder of Cain, to this day, history has been one of Conspiracy.

Two quotes to leave you with:

"Indeed I do tremble for America, when I consider that GOD is just." -Thomas Jefferson

"Government is not reason. It is force. Like fire, it can either be a dangerous servant, or a fearful master." -George Washington

Friends, I too tremble, and I sure as "heck" don't want to be burned.

THINK!!!

[JohnBirchSociety]

Also, we should seek out good men who support the constitution, but what is constitutional is open to interpretation. :) From what I was reading, the Supreme Court decided at least 3 times that the Federal Reserve is constitutional.

Think for a moment of what you just said...

Is the First Amendment open to interpretation?

How about "Congress shall make all laws..."?

I have no desire to get into a real treatise on the matter, but I'm certain you see the problem with the "interpretation" paradigm? If it is true then anything could mean anything depending on who's doing the interpretation. And if that's the case, then even having a constitution is pointless.

It would seem that the enemies of the Constitution have won a major battle in their march to destroy it if it is taken as "defacto" that the Constitution is open to interpretation.

I only hold up the founders who actually wrote the document, and their explanation in the "Federalist Papers", as to what specific items mean in the Constitution. After all, THEY WROTE IT. What a blessing it is to have the "Federalist Papers"! As an aside, PRESIDENT (yes PRESIDENT) Ezra Taft Benson, in General Conference requested that we READ the Federalist Papers.

As to the issue of the Supreme Court determining the meaning of the Constitution, you might want to first establish that the constitution even permits them to do that. (By the way, it doesn't) The Supreme Court answers to the enumerations prescribed within the Constitution, NOT the other way around.

Any changes in the Constitution are to be made ONLY through the amendment process (which the founders intentionally made very difficult)...

In any event, I respectfully state that your position on this matter is wrong.

[a-train]

There is no doubt that there are well intending people who take a given principle of the gospel or a certain item of our religion and exalt it to the point of the neglect of all others. Polygamy, temple ordinances, heavenly mother, spiritual gifts, just about everything has been taken up and placed at the krux of men's lives as they fall into error by way of neglect of essential matters.

There is a dangerous power at work around these people that can go unnoticed. This power is the tendency to downplay or ignore the truths or items exalted by these. Perhaps one may have such a fear of temple ordinances after learning of someone fanatically performing them in their basement that they will question the temple ordinances themselves.

This can especially be a problem when something that is seemingly unattached to the gospel is the item in question.

Now, this guy that invited you (MorningStar) over may indeed be a fanatic on the high road to apostasy as far as I know, but that doesn't negate the reality of our situation or our obligation as God fearing citizens of the United States.

The duty we have is to stand for truth, integrity, peace, and what is right. If this guy is telling us to buy as many guns as we can and head for the hills, then we should consult the LORD and let the Bishop know what this guy is telling the ward to do. But, if all this guy is saying is that there are some bad policies and bad intentions in Washington and he wants to let others know about it so we can vote and excercise our political voice to bring correction, then he is hardly a fanatic.

But even if this guy is a fanatic building a rocket to the moon in his garage to avoid Armageddon, we can't let ourselves shut out the truths he may be fanatical about. We shouldn't stop going to the temple on account of a member of the ward who is a fanatic about temple ordinances.

Imagine the rejection Lehi received when he warned of coming economic and political crisis in Israel. Imagine what a fanatic they thought he was. But what was his message? Was it fanatical? Was he saying: 'Run for this hills! Panic and hide!'? No. He was saying that if we repent and do good we will not have to run to the hills. It was the greedy and dishonest policies of the administration of King Zedekiah that directly resulted in the Babylonian invasion.

Remember that faithful and good members of the LORD's kingdom endured the destruction and captivity avoided by the Lehites. Even Jeremiah the prophet suffered through the invasion.

The people of God had a false sense of security in the protection of the LORD. They figured that no matter how wicked the people and their government were, they would be protected by God because they were the only true believers. See Jeremiah's frustration with this in Jer. 7:8-10.

The wickedness of America has brought pain and suffering on it before. The Civil War is one of the most striking examples. Economic, political, and environmental hardships have come and gone for this nation and they are certainly not over with.

As Mormons, we have direction from the LORD in dealing with these issues. Honesty and integrity are to abound in our policies toward our fellow men. We, as citizens of our country are obligated to seek to establish and uphold such policies.

It is not the function of the First Presidency to designate each dangerous faction that arises to do evil. It should not take such a designation for us to determine if a policy is good or not.

I'm just pointing out that not everything a General Authority says or has said is correct. That's all. As far as I know, we haven't had another prophet in the church try to alert us to the Federal Reserve being a conspiracy. It doesn't really matter to me because I can't do anything about it - All I can do is be prepared and vote for good people.

Now when someone quotes a GA and another says: 'Not everything a GA says or has said is correct.' That makes the first party think that the latter believes the statement quoted to be incorrect. Now it is up to you to determine whether you believe the report that there are corporate elitists conspiring to create monopolies and impose laws that will deprive people of their liberty. This report is coming from many different sources and has been a constant report now for many years.

My advice is to simply do your own research. If this guy called to your attention something you were not yet aware, then that is great and he served a good purpose whether he is a fanatic or not.

Now you must understand what this has been like for those of us who have known about the CFR and all this mess for years. We witnessed the election of members of this group to the Presidency and all manner of offices in Washington. We have watched them defend warrantless searches and seizures, offshore camps where people are imprisoned indefinitely without a trial and subjected to torture, relentless inflationary taxes and defecit spending, and all manner of globalist measures. When we try to tell someone about it and they simply shrug it off as stupid, when they simply imagine the CFR is all good and all is well, it is akin to watching someone drink poison while saying: 'You're insane! This stuff is fine!'

That is why some people get so worked up about it. They want to shake the poison drinker and say: 'No, look! This is poison! Wake up!'

The problem is that the subject isn't that simple. It would be easy if the whole matter was just one bad guy that we could expose and be done with. The trouble is a universal corruption. There are people from all over 'in on it'. But they aren't actually 'in on it' together. They are all against one another just as much as they are against those of us who want honesty and equality.

The reason so many are so excited about this election and the individual running that you mentioned is because he is a clear opponent to all this mess; this mess being the overall conspiracy, not the Federal Reserve.

Just don't brush this off and think: 'What a bunch of foolishness.' Do your own research.

God Bless

-a-train

[Moksha]

As an aside, PRESIDENT (yes PRESIDENT) Ezra Taft Benson, in General Conference requested that we READ the Federalist Papers.

What about the Lord of the Rings or Ender's Game or even Mitt's favorite book, Battlefield Earth? Hopefully on of the GAs will be a Sci-Fi proponent.

[JohnBirchSociety]

What about the Lord of the Rings or Ender's Game or even Mitt's favorite book, Battlefield Earth? Hopefully on of the GAs will be a Sci-Fi proponent.

A bit silly of you to equate an admonition of the Prophet, during General Conference, with Lord of the Rings or the other works you mentioned.

I love Sci-Fi. I'm a rabid fan of the new Galactica. And I can hardly wait for the new Star Trek on Christmas this year.