Wanting To Believe

[Nicodemus]

Yes- Moroni 10:3-5. That is what I've been praying about in particular with James 1:5.

[Luzia]

Originally posted by Setheus@Jun 4 2004, 09:49 PM

I think the best way to try and understand the Lord and His creations and our theorys on this subject is to employ the "KISS" method.

Keep

It

Simple

Stupid

B)

That was funny. :)

PS: I have nothing productive to add here.

Sorry.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 7 2004, 12:43 AM

Yes- Moroni 10:3-5. That is what I've been praying about in particular with James 1:5.

Well have you started living according to all you have been taught? Have you acted upon the things of the church as if they are true?

Does the Lord know you heart? Have you had experience with having prayers answered before you started investigating the church?

Just some questions that I need to understand where you are...

[Guest jackvance88]

ask God to answer you. ask for a vision. whatever will convince you. a lot of mormons will tell you you should not ask for visions etc, they're not very believing in modern day miracles. but God says ask him and he'll answer you. just do it and keep on doing it. i don't know if this church is true or not but i'm currently reading the book of mormon and i believe it's true (or i want to believe it's true) and i'm just waiting for the answer. a certain sure answer, not some warm fuzzy feeling, which i feel when i watch an emotional movie.

[Guest lt]

Yes... he does say ask and he will tell you...But sometimes its in a still small voice, or just a feeling you get of good, warmth and pur love. The lord doesnt always just move mountains, sometimes answers rely on ones faith and trust in the lord himself.

Just my thoughts

LaurelTree

[Guest jackvance88]

but surely faith is a temporary state, a bridge that brings us to truth. i'm now reading the book of mormon, i now already have faith that it is true - i know that because i like what i read, believe what i read, and i am not reading it with a sceptical attitude - in sum, i am reading it with faith. and yes, i do get a warm feeling when i ponder it and the things of god, exactly the same warm feeling i get when i read a book by a lutheran the other day, or meditated in a catholic monestary in switzerland a few years ago.

but, i want to "know", as moses and abraham and joseph smith truly knew. on a lighter note, like indie jones knew 'after' he exercised faith and stepped into the abyss. his faith took him somewhere, but eventually he knew their was a bridge under his feet.

up until that point my testimony can only be that i have faith that the church/god/bom/jesus etc is true and believe that it is true, not that i know it is true.

[Guest lt]

I'm just saying some people get a bolt of lighting and others get a still small voice, and others wouldnt hear even if he tried...so ....I feel if you are spiritually strong the lord will reach you at away he thinks is good, not what you think is good..

thats all

Laureltree

[Ray]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 5 2004, 07:16 PM

Well, I'm not sure what the big attractor is, but if you're speaking of the cosmological constant I think that the current explanation is primarily exotic matter, instead of dark matter.  That is a common misconception.  This must be a particle or a scattered conglomerate of them that are PRECISELY between 1 x 10^123 and 1 x 10^124 (cannot remember which unit they used of measurement unfortunately-daltons?) in size.  If indeed dark matter is found to be the big attractor,  WIMPS pretty much stand as the dominant theory regarding this. 

But, if you're lds and hold to the big bang theory:

1) How does this fit with the concept that "matter is eternal."?  Especially since scientifically neither quarks nor protons, neutrons, and electrons are eternal.  How does this fit with the whole idea of material eternality?

2) Hinckley stands against evolution (organic evolution as he calls it).  At what point is what he believes and claims cross the threshold from opinion or idle speech to prophecy and divine truth?  Is everything he believes and says infallible, as a prophet?  If not, how do we know which of his claims are infallible and which aren't?  Isn't this the very reason why a prophet exists supposedly- to guide and direct and clear up confusion to give a very specific instruction?  I hear that modern prophets exist to clarify and give specific truths on various things.  The function of prophets is nonexistent if we can't tell which of his words to believe and which not to.  Am I being unclear- sometimes my writing has a way of being scattered and incoherent? 

You're the man I wanted to talk to since you seem to be the most experienced and well-grounded lds here regarding their faith and defenses of it.  What is your advice on my praying about the BOM?  About receiving a direct revelation, etc.?

If I may interject for a moment…

1) Relax…you don’t need to have the universe all figured out by the time you’re 20.

2) Step back and judge yourself as you imagine God would judge you right now. Too many people take themselves way too seriously, instead of seeing themselves as little children before God. (I mean no disrespect toward little children whatsoever)

3) Trust only God to guide you, gleaning what you can from others without taking them too seriously. When someone claims to be highly informed on a subject, or to have received revelation from God, trust in God to guide you and verify whether or not that someone speaks the truth. Lots of people spread false information because they are simply misinformed, with no malicious intent at all.

In response to your point 2) above, I wish to help you understand that prophets are not infallible. Prophets are people too, just like you and me, only acting as prophets when they receive testimony from God and then testify that what they have received has come from God. Prophecy can only come through revelation from God, because nobody can know of things they cannot see unless God helps that person know it.

For instance, you weren’t around when the Book of Mormon was written, so there is no way that you can honestly testify to anything about the Book of Mormon, based only upon what you can see or have seen for yourself. The best you can hope to receive is a testimony from somebody who knows the truth about the Book of Mormon, but who are you going to listen to?

Joseph Smith is no longer around, so you can’t ask him. And even if you could, how would you know whether or not he was telling you the truth? The same goes for all the witnesses who testify in support of the Book of Mormon. Should you trust what they say to be true?

And suppose you discovered that some of the witnesses in support of the Book of Mormon were infallible people? Would that negate their testimony?

Some people will even tell you that the Book of Mormon is NOT true, but how do they claim to know that? Even if they claim that God told them that, does that make it true? What if some other people claimed that God told them it was true? How would you know who to trust?

For the record, I testify that I know that the Book of Mormon is true, and that I know this because God has assured me that it is true. But don’t believe me just because I’m telling you this. I recommend you to God, the only witness you SHOULD trust to be impartial, because He is a God of truth. You really don’t know me, so you really shouldn’t trust what I say simply because I said it.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by jackvance88@Jun 7 2004, 02:56 PM

ask God to answer you. ask for a vision. whatever will convince you. a lot of mormons will tell you you should not ask for visions etc, they're not very believing in modern day miracles. but God says ask him and he'll answer you. just do it and keep on doing it. i don't know if this church is true or not but i'm currently reading the book of mormon and i believe it's true (or i want to believe it's true) and i'm just waiting for the answer. a certain sure answer, not some warm fuzzy feeling, which i feel when i watch an emotional movie.

After the trial of your faith...maybe...

Just keep truckin' :) you are doing what you should right now....but God wants to know you can handle the truth/Spiritual manifestations before He goes and gives you any....

Some had great manifestations in early church history...and still fell away...because it isn't the manifestations that give you strenth, it is being born again....which is what you really need to seek after...

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness (His righteousness is rebirth or atonement or both) and all else will be added unto you....

[Nicodemus]

I am glad that I have met you here Starsky. Unfortunately, I probably will not spend much time hereafter, but something you said hit home with me- I'm not ready. Perhaps I'm being tested, perhaps I need humility, perhaps I need to live more righteously, perhaps He needs to see my sincerity and desire is genuine. I hope that the reason I have received nothing is because He wishes to reveal Himself in a vision as He does now today to many others. I will just be patient and when He is ready the time will come.

I will return here when it happens. :) Thank you for your patience, and especially for your wisdom and insight into this. And finally, if it is not too much, please keep me in your prayers. It would mean a lot to me.

That's a good point. I do get feelings when I watch emotional movies.

[Guest Ruthie-chan]

Hi Nic,

Here is an article on Evolution from the New Era, the church magazine for teenagers.

My Answer to Evolution

Have you read this talk by Gordon B. Hinckley?

God Hath Not Given Us the Spirit of Fear

Are you familiar with the Plan of Salvation?

Have you spoken to the Missionaries? They are the best people to talk to about this stuff.

It is their Calling to teach the Gospel after all.

You are on the right track. You're actively seeking Him.

Have you seen this site?

It speaks of geographical evidences of the Book of Mormon.

Book of Mormon Evidences

There are a couple of analogies I'd like to share with you about Gospel learning.

I'm sure you've heard this one: "Milk before meat."

You wouldn't try to feed an infant a hot dog would you? No, you give an infant milk first, then mushy food, and slowly work their way up to meats. Every child is different. Some eat meat before the age of 1, others start after the age of 2. But they all get there.

The Gospel is also like math.

You wouldn't try to learn Calculus without the basics under your belt.

You need to go back and learn addition and subtraction, multiplication and division, fractions, algrebra, and so on before you are ready for Calculus. Some people never get it all, others learn only the basics, but there's room for everyone on every level in the Gospel.

Have you seen the 17 points of the true church?

17 Points of the True Church

You can read the indicated scriptures here:

Scriptures - Online Edition

I hope this helps.

If you have any issues with anything please let me know and I'll do my best to help.

If you don't feel comfortable posting them here feel free to PM or email me. (Info is in my profile.)

You're in my prayers. :)

[Guest Ruthie-chan]

Interestingly enough, I flipped to a random page in the Doctrine and Covenants while reading the scriptures with my daughter this morning.

After reading this section I immediately thought of you Nicodemus.

THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

SECTION 131

Instructions by Joseph Smith the Prophet, given at Ramus, Illinois, May 16 and 17, 1843. HC 5: 392—393.

1—4, Celestial marriage is essential to exaltation in the highest heaven; 5—6, How men are sealed up unto eternal life; 7—8, All spirit is matter.

"1 IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this border of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is bsealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter."

[lostnfound]

Hi, this is my first post here and I'm a little nervous at it. I wish to post anonymously, just call me "Nick."

As an introduction, I'm a teenager and a Protestant. I am informed about your church to a significant degree, yet still unlearned about much. I am more informed about my beliefs- I have authored two chapters of a systematic theology you might have read. THIS is why it is so important that my posts are anonymous.

I'm not really involved in a church because there is none that I can attend that I've found that I enjoy. I just have little desire to. I don't understand it- I've instructed pastors heading congregations with thousands of people, and I know my theology and Bible very well, yet the key is that I'm unhappy and don't feel insincere. I'm perpetually depressed.

Most of my friends are LDS, and I want to join the church. Yet, I cannot join a church that I do not believe is right. If I know that there are problems with your church, I can't join a church I know is wrong. I stay up night after night reading the standard works of the LDS church and different theologies and yet I remain highly unconvinced.

I guess what I want desparately is to be convinced that the LDS church is the true church. I've tried to discuss issues with people in person, but most of the time they don't know what they're talking about. I've TAUGHT the LDS about their own doctrine before.

I don't know why I feel drawn to your church. Perhaps it is because I seek happiness and involvement, an opportunity to serve, and have many friends there- including several women with which we share mutual attractions. With the social structure of your church I would never again be lonely or depressed. I've wondered if it is the lusts of the flesh that draw me to your church- the doctrines of celestial marriage and exaltation sometimes seem to be backdoor attempts at merging desires for endless sexual relations, pride, and power with the Christian faith.

I'd like to know more about the LDS faith. And the RLDS if possible. I'm tired of staying up every night trying to convince myself. I've prayed about the Book of Mormon, asking God to reveal Himself or the Holy Spirit to me. I've gone into woods and prayed several times for wisdom as Joseph Smith instructed. I want a way to excuse myself to joining the LDS church. There's a genuine happiness and sincerity that I haven't found elsewhere.

The problem is that I can't because I have so many problems with it. Why did the three witnesses fall away at some point- that credibility is WORSE than non-existent. Why are elephants mentioned in the BOM? How is it that it is mentioned that the Americas were once so crowded and buildings littered the landscape when in fact there is no archaeological evidence for that (or that 2 million something-ites died in a war or series of wars). I ask these to other people and I'm wasting my time. I'm aware that online, there lie my sleeping theological giants that could instruct me.

BTW, one thing I like about the LDS church is that it will logically allow me to abandon my beliefs in evolutionary theory and the big bang. I'm working towards becoming a geobiologist (geophysics fused with ecology) and am in a sense forced scientifically to hold to the big bang and evolution. If I were LDS I would no longer need to believe in the big bang since I could say:

1) The universe is expanding because saints are receiving their exaltation and constantly getting exalted, and so new galaxies are being created. There is no "outer ends" of our universe per se since it is isotropic.

2) The cosmic microwave background exists because the universe was once smaller than it is today and the radiation from various close sources might account for it granted that we accept that this radiation occurred in the near past and is slowly fading.

3) The presence of billions and billions of other galaxies is a stumbling block for creationists of other religions. Galaxies that we can only detect mathematically and cannot observe- why do they exist if we're alone? Not "to glorify God" since they're only detectable through complex equations (differential geometry in Robertson-Walker form I suppose). These other galaxies serve a purpose in LDS theology.

4) Radioactive isotopes dating billions of years old- since matter is eternal in your theology, I can simply say that it's been 4.55 billion years (if we're dealing with lunar rocks, terrestrial samples, or local meteorites) since that matter has left a supernova explosion- but it existed in smaller forms prior to that. If I were creationist and a Protestant, claiming the universe was 10,000 years old, I'd be dead meat on that blatant contradiction to creationism.

Right now, I am forced to explain this away through the big bang theory. The universe is expanding and cooling still; the CMB exists as a fossil of the initial hot and dense state; the other galaxies are mere lifeless side effects of the big bang.

And I accept evolution, partly, because now that I've accepted the big bang what else am I to do? Other reasons include various methods such as endogenous retrovirus insertions, vestigial structures, etc. but if I ever became LDS, I would drop both theories in a heartbeat and work towards settling those inconsistencies in geobiology.

Science means a lot to me and so being able to hold to LDS theology would greatly improve my options regarding it. Thanks for being patient, and this is not a hoax- I am sincerely seeking truth, if this is where it is to be found.

God bless you for your patience.

Nick, I can almost feel your pain without even knowing you. systemic theology. Hm I wonder if I have ever read your books. I have a few on the subject. I think you are absoutly right in regards to feeling close to the Lds culture.

I have met some pretty wonderful mormons in my life. They sometimes even act more christian then the christians I know. :) I feel sad that you would throw away Truth though to join a culture of people. People will let you down and you will not find a perfect church.

I agree and you would probably agree with me in that there are tons of watered down christian churches out there and some pretty fake congregation out there as well.??:) at least this has been my observation of the churches I been able to teach, and attend at across the nation. However, Nick your first responsibility is the Gospel and not Churches or buildings. I would encourage you to ask God to put you in a grounded, loving community of believers and if you don't have one near you then grab a couple of people that you do know are grounded and start a bible study...start there. May I ask you if you are spending time in Gods word? Sometims I find that people that start to go away from God including myself are not even spending time in God's word anymore. So how much time are you spending in Gods word? That seems to be where the enemy attacks us most when we are not grounded in truth. and just because you have taught systemic theology does Not mean that you can not be taught! I can read a passage of scripture 50 times and get something else out of it each time. Why? It is a living book. Are you still allowing God to teach you?

Just a couple of suggestions for you. I pray you have a peace of mind.

[lostnfound]

How does one turn to the Lord? I ask for guidance and seek to obey and search after Him- and then what? Do I skip church in the meantime? Which church do I join? I cannot join a church I believe is wrong. And right now, not a church exists that I believe is right. The only church I haven't examined to a great degree of depth is the RLDS.

Yes, skip church until you God gives you guidance. Do not join a church if you believe it is wrong.

[Misshalfway]

I may have found this thread a little too late, Nick. If you are still peeking in, I am LDS and wanted to add a note or two.

I just wanted to add that the quest for truth isn't always easy....but absolutely possible. God works line upon line and precept upon precept. Milk before meat, so to speak. Don't be afraid! Afraid that someone or something will deceive you. You might make mistakes along your road, just like the rest of us, but be believing. The Spirit of the Lord IS sure. It testifies of truth. That is the number one job of the Spirit. It will teach you the truth of all things and bring things to your mind. It will teach your mind and your heart. It will teach you how things really are and how they really will be. It will tell you and show you, even inside of mistakes! It can't lead you astray. As you make your life a place where the Holy Ghost can dwell (obedience, cleanliness, right living, etc), you will feel it more and become more able to identify its influence in your life. Don't be afraid to investigate and ask questions. But add patience to your heart-- as the speed and order of those answers are in the Lord's hands to give in His wisdom.

My advice is go to where you are led. Follow those promptings. Trust them. If that means visiting a church or a grove. God knows what you need and how you need it presented to you. Your job is to trust and take His hand. These experiences will grow up in you and help you create a sure foundation for you to discern truth and will make your life what He wants your life to be -- whatever and however it comes to you.

I just wanted to say something about Heavenly Father. He is just and all powerful. He is to be respected, but don't fear Him. There is an adversary. And he loves to tell lies about the nature and personality of God. God is literally your father. He knows you better than you know yourself and loves you will a love that we humans cannot understand yet. He knows the purpose of your life and wants to bless you. But, He will do so as a perfect parent. He will bless you when you obey, and help you when you need IF you have faith. His laws are firm and eternal.....and He won't bend them because of popular opinion or selfish desire. Open your heart to the love and wisdom and peace of Father in Heaven. He is there FOR you. He is not against you. He IS against sin. So, when there is sin inside of us, he will invite us away from it. And if we won't because of pride, He will allow the consequences of such choices even if it hurts us. Pain is an amazingly powerful teacher. If not even a hair off our heads will escape the notice of God, surely not one of your feelings or needs or desires or worth will be missed by Him either.

Keep reading that BofM!! Read it with faith and real intent. You want to believe. Let that belief work in you. Your experience with Father in Heaven and His scriptures can be an amazing place for personal revelation. Again, be patient and believe. Your answers will come. Generally, answers don't come until after the trial of faith. Learn about real intent. Know what that means and understand how to apply it.

Sending my love and support to you in your search.

Best wishes.

MH

[Moksha]

And I accept evolution, partly, because now that I've accepted the big bang what else am I to do? ... but if I ever became LDS, I would drop both theories in a heartbeat and work towards settling those inconsistencies in geobiology.

Hope it is not too bubble bursting to realize these items are not in conflict with what it means to be LDS. The strivings, accomplishments and proofs of science would only stand as evidence of God's methodology. :)