The Passion Of The Christ

[Lindy]

I admire all Policemen, Firefighters, EMT's, Paramedics, Military Personnel (Active and Reserves)...Medics and Medical Personnel. For what they do and what they give up

I GIVE UP

Once Again You Make Me Crazy Trident.....

[Guest Starsky]

Only God can judge and what He judges is our hearts. Death bed confessions don't seem to work in my book....of Alma.

Alma 34:

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 29 2004, 11:20 PM

I happen to know that at least policemen consider nurses part of the "brotherhood".

I am a paramedic and do not consider nurses part of the "brotherhood". I respect what they do, but they do an entirely different job. An in-hospital setting has a fraction of the risks.

Wrong, Trident. You are so narrow-minded that you can't see the truth when it is plastered right in front of you.

We might have different risks, but they are just as real and as numerous as the ones you face. And in many states, nurses are required to stop at accident sites, etc., when other medical personnel are not yet present. And I have on numerous occasions.

And whether or not you consider them part of the "brotherhood" isn't important. I know they are.

[Tr2]

And whether or not you consider them part of the "brotherhood" isn't important.

Do you work in this field? I learned about "brotherhood" from the people I work with and those who have trained me. Other than doctors nobody works closer with nurses than paramedics do. I understand what they do, and don't do. I won't argue about this because I'm not going to try and convince you about the way reality is. If nurses were responsible for decision-making I might think differently.

We might have different risks, but they are just as real and as numerous as the ones you face. And in many states, nurses are required to stop at accident sites, etc., when other medical personnel are not yet present. And I have on numerous occasions.

So nurses are so dedicated to patient care that a law has to be passed that forces them to stop at an accident scene. I have never known a medic, fireman, or cop to just keep on driving when they see something happen. A law doesn't need to be passed for us.

Risks? I agree there are some, but not even a fraction that exists in a prehospital environment. Want a few examples?

*we always work in a non-sterile environment

*we are exposed to more body fluids in a more uncontrolled state

*we do not know the medical history of anyone we treat (we are the reason why you have the chart you have in the hospital)

*paramedics and EMT's develop substantial more injuries in the field, including disabling ones

*we have to negotiate an emergency vehicles on a daily basis (more emergency personnel are killed while responding to an incident than all others combined)

*depression is significantly higher because we see all the bad stuff, you see what we have cleaned up

I'll leave that for now, you can have more any time you like. Everything a nurse is at-risk to, we are too. Except we have additional risks that nurses do not have.

Death bed confessions don't seem to work in my book....of Alma

I seem to be using this example a lot lately. Would you consider the thief on the cross as an example of a deathbed confession? I would. Jesus proves you wrong.

I GIVE UP

Once Again You Make Me Crazy Trident.....

I was not the one who brought up the objection when I stated that these people do more good than any religious person, yet many are athiests and have no faith. I demonstrated that you DO NOT NEED FAITH to do good works.

[Lindy]

I GIVE UP

Once Again You Make Me Crazy Trident.....

I was not the one who brought up the objection when I stated that these people do more good than any religious person, yet many are athiests and have no faith. I demonstrated that you DO NOT NEED FAITH to do good works.

It's OK...you skirted my question on this with an accusation of my feelings on state and county workers. So I took that as a refusal to answer, no biggie, life goes on.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Is the point of this discussion that Atheist Firemen go to Hell, because their good works don't count, and they don't have faith in Christ?

Personally, I don't believe that...but I was wondering what the rest of you think.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Jan 30 2004, 10:49 AM

Is the point of this discussion that Atheist Firemen go to Hell, because their good works don't count, and they don't have faith in Christ?

Personally, I don't believe that...but I was wondering what the rest of you think.

We can't judge that. Only God can, and He will.

We just discuss it like what we say matters...LOL

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 30 2004, 07:32 AM

And whether or not you consider them part of the "brotherhood" isn't important.

Do you work in this field? I learned about "brotherhood" from the people I work with and those who have trained me. Other than doctors nobody works closer with nurses than paramedics do. I understand what they do, and don't do. I won't argue about this because I'm not going to try and convince you about the way reality is. If nurses were responsible for decision-making I might think differently.

We might have different risks, but they are just as real and as numerous as the ones you face. And in many states, nurses are required to stop at accident sites, etc., when other medical personnel are not yet present. And I have on numerous occasions.

So nurses are so dedicated to patient care that a law has to be passed that forces them to stop at an accident scene. I have never known a medic, fireman, or cop to just keep on driving when they see something happen. A law doesn't need to be passed for us.

Risks? I agree there are some, but not even a fraction that exists in a prehospital environment. Want a few examples?

*we always work in a non-sterile environment

*we are exposed to more body fluids in a more uncontrolled state

*we do not know the medical history of anyone we treat (we are the reason why you have the chart you have in the hospital)

*paramedics and EMT's develop substantial more injuries in the field, including disabling ones

*we have to negotiate an emergency vehicles on a daily basis (more emergency personnel are killed while responding to an incident than all others combined)

*depression is significantly higher because we see all the bad stuff, you see what we have cleaned up

I'll leave that for now, you can have more any time you like. Everything a nurse is at-risk to, we are too. Except we have additional risks that nurses do not have.

Whatever, Trident. I only know what I have been told (by cops), and how I have been treated (by cops).

Maybe EMT's truly are special.

BTW, when I stopped, it wasn't because of a law, it was because someone needed help, and I could provide it. Oh, yeah, a few others stopped who were (off-duty) EMTs, and they wouldn't touch anyone or anything because they didn't have gloves.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 30 2004, 06:38 PM

BTW, when I stopped, it wasn't because of a law, it was because someone needed help, and I could provide it.  Oh, yeah, a few others stopped who were (off-duty) EMTs, and they wouldn't touch anyone or anything because they didn't have gloves.

THANK YOU JENDA! :)

This was what I wanted to get out of Trident...and we saw where THAT went....

Thank you for an honest statement....you stopped BECAUSE someone needed help....not because of a law. And the gloveless (off duty) workers wouldn't touch anything. THANK YOU!

I feel vindicated somehow :)

[Tr2]

Whatever, Trident. I only know what I have been told (by cops), and how I have been treated (by cops).

And now you are being told otherwise by a 15+ year medic. Nurses deal with police officers a fraction of the amount they deal with medics and EMT's, whose say is more important? Do you only believe what you want to believe?

BTW, when I stopped, it wasn't because of a law, it was because someone needed help, and I could provide it. Oh, yeah, a few others stopped who were (off-duty) EMTs, and they wouldn't touch anyone or anything because they didn't have gloves.

So you are coming down on people for not violating a code of ethics and a protocol that exists in every emergency department in the world, treating somebody without gloves? There are good reasons why there are protocol like that in place. Do you know anything about communicable diseases? Unless there is a femoral arterial bleeding, you can afford to wait and not risk taking some disease home to your family, friends, and co-workers. Besides without ALS assistance your efforts will make little, if any difference anyways and I think you know that. I will never fault somebody for not putting the people around them in uneccesary risk. If a nurse is willing to break one of the most important protocols, what else will they violate? This reflects your professionalism.

You are unaware of the risks and therefore will do things that seem heroic to the unknowledgable. To me, it's unwarrented and stupid. Start using your head, not your heart.

Maybe EMT's truly are special.

Try doing your job without them.

And the gloveless (off duty) workers wouldn't touch anything

In other words they were not willing to take hepatitis, HIV, herpes, lyme disease, etc home to their families. The health of the provider ALWAYS comes first, no exceptions.

[Lindy]

The health of the provider ALWAYS comes first, no exceptions.

Thank you! That was what I was looking for.

The thoughts of those who have suffered while saving (helping) others (or trying to save or help others) was the first thing that came to mind. Selfless acts of kindness, service to others without a thought of themselves. Tragic as it might be that sometimes they lose their own lives in the process and their families have to exist without them.

Where would those people who are living today be if others "not on duty" lived by the NO EXCEPTION rule and not stopped to help save them?

I'm not going to blame Canada for it's "no exception" ruling, I'm not going to blame the agnostic/atheist for what they think or don't think, I'm only going to say that I think it is rather sad that " The health of the provider ALWAYS comes first, no exceptions".

I think we need more people like Jenda who care about others and understand that there are "exceptions".

[Tr2]

And if I were to treat somebody on the street and take home some kind of infection or disease to my son, you'd be ok with that? I have a hand gesture for anybody who is ok with that concept. Those who take the biggest risks usually are of the most uneducated about what they are doing. "Hero's" die in the line of duty, the smart ones are those who enjoy a career and save the most lives. I will not piss away my career, health, and profession to help somebody unnecessarily. Please don't act like you are any different.

I was quaranteened once for SARS because I was not fully aware of the consequences and chose to rush into a situation without approrpiate BSI. Do you know how many other patients went untreated in the 10 days I was at home? Stupidity might be ok in your world, but in mine it costs lives.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 1 2004, 07:39 AM

Whatever, Trident. I only know what I have been told (by cops), and how I have been treated (by cops).

And now you are being told otherwise by a 15+ year medic. Nurses deal with police officers a fraction of the amount they deal with medics and EMT's, whose say is more important? Do you only believe what you want to believe?

BTW, when I stopped, it wasn't because of a law, it was because someone needed help, and I could provide it. Oh, yeah, a few others stopped who were (off-duty) EMTs, and they wouldn't touch anyone or anything because they didn't have gloves.

So you are coming down on people for not violating a code of ethics and a protocol that exists in every emergency department in the world, treating somebody without gloves? There are good reasons why there are protocol like that in place. Do you know anything about communicable diseases? Unless there is a femoral arterial bleeding, you can afford to wait and not risk taking some disease home to your family, friends, and co-workers. Besides without ALS assistance your efforts will make little, if any difference anyways and I think you know that. I will never fault somebody for not putting the people around them in uneccesary risk. If a nurse is willing to break one of the most important protocols, what else will they violate? This reflects your professionalism.

You are unaware of the risks and therefore will do things that seem heroic to the unknowledgable. To me, it's unwarrented and stupid. Start using your head, not your heart.

Maybe EMT's truly are special.

Try doing your job without them.

And the gloveless (off duty) workers wouldn't touch anything

In other words they were not willing to take hepatitis, HIV, herpes, lyme disease, etc home to their families. The health of the provider ALWAYS comes first, no exceptions.

Well, Trident, I guess your post sums up the difference between you and me.

John 15:12,13

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

See, I value all life equally. You think you are better than others, for some reason. I know the risks when I go into a situation, but when my presence could save a life, I will choose to save it and risk the risks. Maybe that is what makes the difference between nurses and EMTs. I choose to care.

I will continue to think with my heart, thank you.

[Tr2]

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

Let's see which is the more noble choice:

1) Treat a patient without proper BSI, contract something like HIV and never be allowed to treat anyone ever again. All to help one person.

2) Obey the standards that have been pre-set by people much more knowledgable than myself. Do not treat one person, but continue to treat patients every day for the rest of my career.

Help 1 person, or help thousands. You choose which is the greater cause.

I will continue to think with my heart, thank you.

Then you do not belong in medicine. You are a danger to yourself and those around you.

Maybe that is what makes the difference between nurses and EMTs. I choose to care

It has nothing to do with caring. It is about making smart decisions, which you have proven that you have no intention on making.

I wonder what God would say to me if I were to try and justify when I went against what I knew was right, because my heart was compelled, and contracted something that I gave to my son.

You think you are better than others, for some reason

No, I know that I have excellent skills in the field of emergency medicine and am not ready to compromise the health and safety of my future patients because of sheer stupidity.

It is obvious that the patient is not your primary concern, what you think is right is your primary concern. You seem to be high on yourself because of your high and mighty morals. You fail to realize that because of an impulse decision and following your heart you potentially put the health of future would-be patients at risk. I have treated thousands of people in my career. How many would have died if I was put behind a desk because I had a communicable disease that prevented me from going into the field. That is perhaps the most selfish thing a medical provider can do.

You do not belong in medicine because you do not value your own safety, nor the safety of your co-workers. You are a loose canon that I hope I never have to work with. I dare you to spout off this type of talk to your attending physician. Let's see how long it takes him/her to remove you from patient care. Your thinking makes you a safety hazard.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 1 2004, 04:48 PM

And if I were to treat somebody on the street and take home some kind of infection or disease to my son, you'd be ok with that? I have a hand gesture for anybody who is ok with that concept. Those who take the biggest risks usually are of the most uneducated about what they are doing. "Hero's" die in the line of duty, the smart ones are those who enjoy a career and save the most lives. I will not piss away my career, health, and profession to help somebody unnecessarily. Please don't act like you are any different.

I was quaranteened once for SARS because I was not fully aware of the consequences and chose to rush into a situation without approrpiate BSI. Do you know how many other patients went untreated in the 10 days I was at home? Stupidity might be ok in your world, but in mine it costs lives.

And I have a hand gesture for anybody who knows how to save lives and doesn't have the smarts enough to think on their feet and improvise on using something as a barrier if need be.

I'm saddened that you think that only smart people enjoy a career and save the most lives. That's not saying much for others who sacrificed themselves to save other lives. And I don't have to act like I'm different here bub...I am different...

again..I don't have to act.

And stupidity might cost lives in your world...but in mine compassion and service RULES!

[Tr2]

And I have a hand gesture for anybody who knows how to save lives and doesn't have the smarts enough to think on their feet and improvise on using something as a barrier if need be.

There are a number of things you can attempt. Unfortunately none of them work well. There are reasons why we use nitrile or latex gloves, plastic goggles, surgical masks and gowns when necessary.

That's not saying much for others who sacrificed themselves to save other lives

I try to have respect for everyone who has laid down their life in the line of duty. In the fire and EMS world it happens when people forget their training and do what they were not supposed to do.

So do you expect me to put my family's health at risk to help a stranger?

[Lindy]

So do you expect me to put my family's health at risk to help a stranger?

Well, let me answer your question with a question...

If it were the life of your wife and/or your son on the line, wouldn't you want a stranger who knew how to save her/his life do so? Or would it be ok with you if the stranger just pleaded "never an exception"?

now a last question I have had in mind...

.....what does WWJD mean in YOUR world?......

[Tr2]

So now you compare Jesus dying to save every human being who would ever be born to me not helping one person because I am not prepared to do so.

Can you imagine if Jesus would have done something stupid when he was a child that would have prevented him from dying on the cross to save mankind? Jesus did the same thing I try to do, to help the most people possible.

what does WWJD mean in YOUR world?

Sacrificing yourself for one person so you can never help another is WWJD? You're going to have to back that up. Maybe if there were the same number of possible diseases as those of the bible, stories like the good samaritan would be applicable. If me dying in the line of duty would help every sick patient in the world I would do it.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 1 2004, 10:10 PM

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

Let's see which is the more noble choice:

1) Treat a patient without proper BSI, contract something like HIV and never be allowed to treat anyone ever again. All to help one person.

2) Obey the standards that have been pre-set by people much more knowledgable than myself. Do not treat one person, but continue to treat patients every day for the rest of my career.

Help 1 person, or help thousands. You choose which is the greater cause.

I will continue to think with my heart, thank you.

Then you do not belong in medicine. You are a danger to yourself and those around you.

Maybe that is what makes the difference between nurses and EMTs. I choose to care

It has nothing to do with caring. It is about making smart decisions, which you have proven that you have no intention on making.

I wonder what God would say to me if I were to try and justify when I went against what I knew was right, because my heart was compelled, and contracted something that I gave to my son.

You think you are better than others, for some reason

No, I know that I have excellent skills in the field of emergency medicine and am not ready to compromise the health and safety of my future patients because of sheer stupidity.

It is obvious that the patient is not your primary concern, what you think is right is your primary concern. You seem to be high on yourself because of your high and mighty morals. You fail to realize that because of an impulse decision and following your heart you potentially put the health of future would-be patients at risk. I have treated thousands of people in my career. How many would have died if I was put behind a desk because I had a communicable disease that prevented me from going into the field. That is perhaps the most selfish thing a medical provider can do.

You do not belong in medicine because you do not value your own safety, nor the safety of your co-workers. You are a loose canon that I hope I never have to work with. I dare you to spout off this type of talk to your attending physician. Let's see how long it takes him/her to remove you from patient care. Your thinking makes you a safety hazard.

Wow! Somebody is jumping to a lot of conclusions. I never said I didn't follow protocol, especially in a hospital situation. I did say that I would evaluate the risks going into each situation.

You know, Trident, you live and work in an ideal world. The world where everything must be as you need it to be every minute of the day. Most of the rest of us, unfortunately, live in the real world. The world where you run out of your protective barriers because our supplies aren't endless, and we are still faced with needing, or wanting, to do our jobs. And the ambulance is still 20 minutes away, and someone has to do CPR.

Yeah, must be nice to live in the ideal world.

Most (not all) communicable diseases are treatable (or preventable). Just in case you forgot. So, go get your immunizations, get your kid immunized, and stop acting like the world will end when you die or get sick.

[StrawberryFields]

WWJD?

One of our family’s favorite vacations is going to Lake Powell. Several years ago when my children we all under the age of 10, we happened to be there during a terrible storm. The swells were so large that we actually saw a boat disappear about 100 feet away never to be seen again. There were no banks along the shore to dock and wait out the storm so we had no choice be to head to the marina about 2 miles away. We prayed for the safety of our family and we made it to the dock. The marina was strangely calm as I let my husband off at the dock and my oldest son got out to hold us while standing on the dock. The rest of us held from the inside as my husband we to get the tailor for the boat. Right on the inside of the dock was a boat full of adults with one man sitting on the dock holding his boat and visiting with the people in his boat. To the left of us was a houseboat revving it's engine pulling away from the shore. As soon as the houseboat left we began catching the full force of the waves hitting us against the dock with a force that almost took our boat out of the water. I yelled to the two other children to get out of the boat onto the dock as I felt the boat cracking as it hit the dock. My husband having successfully put the trailer in the water and seeing what was happening rushed to us. He told the kids to hold on to each other and head for the shore. He then told me to punch it as he pushed off and would jump in. It sounded very dangerous to me but we didn't have much of a choice. I did as I was told and as he jumped the wind caught the boat tossing it into the dock and catch his leg between the boat and the dock as he jumped. I was not about to try that same thing again so I told him to get in and punch it and I would hold the boat from the inside. This time it worked and we made it away from the dock. As I turned to look at the scene we had just escaped from I saw the man with the boat full of adults. The man was watching us and the adults just carried on unsaved from our recent events. After making sure that my children were safe and my husband leg wasn't broken (a miracle in itself) I went for a "walk" down to where the man was still sitting with the boat full of adults laughing and joking. They were just sitting out the storm from the refuge formed from the dock. I said "How could you do what you just did'? He knew who I was because he had just watched the whole thing and he was in arms reach away. He said "Maim I had by own boat to worry about" I exclaimed that he wasn't in danger that his boat had several adults that could have also help our family. The he said "But Maim..." I cut him off and said and "I suppose you also call yourself a Christian"? I turned and left and he said nothing.

WWJD? I believe that when you take on the name of a Christian you take on the name of Christ and should act as Jesus would act.

[Tr2]

I never said I didn't follow protocol, especially in a hospital situation.

Show me just one example from anywhere in the United States, Canada, or the UK where it states that you are permitted to treat a patient without appropriate BSI.

The world where everything must be as you need it to be every minute of the day

1 pair of gloves, 1 mask, 1 gown, 1 pair of goggles, 1 50ml bottle of antiseptic, and 1 AR mask. I have all that in the glove box of my car. What a dream world I live in. So in other words you are unprepared and think of yourself as heroic because you take uneccesary risks when they are very easy to overcome?

Most (not all) communicable diseases are treatable (or preventable).

So that means I should just not care that they are present? SARS is very treatable, but it also killed 40 people in Toronto alone last year. You expect me to put the people I love, including my 5 month old son, in a situation where they could contract something? I care more about them than that.

Strawberry Field,

I believe in taking calculated risks. I have spent my entire adult life working in jobs that required taking risks.

I do have a question. How many times did Jesus get Himself into a situation that he was not prepared to handle?

So is being a Christian involve doing good and then shaming other people who don't do what you think is enough? If you would ask me the identical question my response would be very simple. That statement "do you consider yourself a Christian" is proof that you are in it to try and be better than other people. If that is what a Christian is, I'll pass.

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 2 2004, 02:55 PM

Strawberry Field,

I believe in taking calculated risks. I have spent my entire adult life working in jobs that required taking risks.

I do have a question. How many times did Jesus get Himself into a situation that he was not prepared to handle?

So is being a Christian involve doing good and then shaming other people who don't do what you think is enough? If you would ask me the identical question my response would be very simple. That statement "do you consider yourself a Christian" is proof that you are in it to try and be better than other people. If that is what a Christian is, I'll pass.

Trident,

No... the man did NOT do good enough because he did N O T H I N G but sit on his duff and watch a young family in peril. My comment did however give him a chance to reflect on his inactions.

Any one of us could have been seriously injured and this man neglected to help and even found amusement in our situation. Maybe you have never had your family placed in this kind of danger and had an able-bodied person watch as if you were there for his personal entertainment. It wouldn't have taken me even two seconds before I would have helped to some capacity being in his position. If that makes me better, then so be it.

Somewhere I can recall reading that you don't live in the real world. B)

[Guest Starsky]

It is sad that all those doors of opportunity are being closed because of fear of law suits.

I believe this is our challenge....to do the right thing regardless of the world coming down our necks and destroying us. It is indeed WWJD time.

If everyone did the right thing no matter what...the judges and law makers would be forced to close thier doors due to major overload.

Matt. 16: 25

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8: 35

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.

Luke 9: 24

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luke 17: 33

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Feb 2 2004, 01:55 PM

The world where everything must be as you need it to be every minute of the day

1 pair of gloves, 1 mask, 1 gown, 1 pair of goggles, 1 50ml bottle of antiseptic, and 1 AR mask. I have all that in the glove box of my car. What a dream world I live in. So in other words you are unprepared and think of yourself as heroic because you take uneccesary risks when they are very easy to overcome?

You must be kidding. You are just pulling the wool over your eyes if you think that is adequate coverage. Blood doesn't soak through gowns? A mask is good for only 20 minutes tops, then you might as well not have one on. Gloves are known not to be complete barriers.

How about double-gloves, a moisture resistant gown, and as many masks as necessary to keep the germs in (or out).

But, you go on kidding yourself, Trident. Yeah, you are taking adequate precautions.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Feb 2 2004, 07:26 AM

If it were the life of your wife and/or your son on the line, wouldn't you want a stranger who knew how to save her/his life do so? Or would it be ok with you if the stranger just pleaded "never an exception"?

T~

You never answered my question...

If you lost someone you loved will all of your heart...Would that excuse be good enough for you?

And yes, I think that Jesus would do what ever he could in the same situation.

SF~ Good story :)

I believe that when you take on the name of a Christian you take on the name of Christ and should act as Jesus would act.

EXACTLY!

What was the scripture? "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Somehow, I don't think that Christ was adding "with exceptions" to "the least of these my brethren"