Questions about the Godhead, Apostacy and Etc.

[seeker]

I am an investagater caught between two Churches the LDS Church and the Roman Catholic Church. I would like to choose a third option but applying logic these are the only two that could have the keys to the kingdom. Either the restoration of the keys was needed or it was maintained thru the Popes. Such is a matter of faith.

The belief that Christ is the Creator Jehova is some what troubling to me. This would seem to mean that Christ would have given the Mosaic laws he realesed us from. What is the foundation for this belief?

Heavenly Father is a glorified Being that was once as we are where? Do people progress to become Gods or godlike with there own planet as a result of the plan of salvation?

What do you do in the afterlife? (I will probably end up in Purgatory or Spirit Prison for while)

What is the Holy Ghost/ Spirit?

[Flyonthewall]

Seeker,

Welcome to the boards.

What is it exactly that troubles you about Christ being the creator that gave the Mosaic laws?

Basically, when Moses asked the Lord who he could tell the children of Israel who sent him, the Lord responded "I AM". Then in John 8 Jesus states:

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, aBefore Abraham was, I am.

Do people progress to become Gods or godlike with there own planet as a result of the plan of salvation?

This wording is generally pulled from "anti" sites. I won't hold that against you.

The Bible states that Jesus Christ is the Son of G_d, Jesus is heir to His Father who is G_d the Father. If we repent, are baptized, follow the commandments and endure to the end, we can become joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8).

The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit and a member of the Godhead. He is also known as the Comforter, Holy Spirit etc... it is through The Holy Ghost the truthfulness of things will be made manifest.

[seeker]

Fly on the Wall,

The Mosaic laws are pretty harsh and the God of the old testment was harsh. I always pictured Christ interceeding with God on behalf.

also

The 1st commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" If Christ gave this does that mean he is greater than heavenly father.

Thanks

seeker

[Flyonthewall]

Fly on the Wall,

The Mosaic laws are pretty harsh and the God of the old testment was harsh. I always pictured Christ interceeding with God on behalf.

I agree, the Mosaic laws do seem kinda harsh, and to be honest, I'm not a good one to give a good explaination of why. But do keep in mind, that the Lord was patient with them and gave every opportunity obey and repent, but they kept disobeying.

The 1st commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" If Christ gave this does that mean he is greater than heavenly father.

Thanks

seeker

Jesus Christ was/is the creator of the world and the G_d of the old testament. He was the one that gave the 10 commandments, and at that time, the House of Israel knew of only Him. So the 1st commandment was valid.

As part of Jesus' mortal ministry He submitted His will to the that of the Father, and it is during His ministry that the Father was introduced to the world. This scriptural reference demonstrates that the Jews did not know the Father, but Jesus knew Him:

John 8

53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And again in John 20:

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[a-train]

The belief that Christ is the Creator Jehova is some what troubling to me. This would seem to mean that Christ would have given the Mosaic laws he realesed us from. What is the foundation for this belief?

Jehovah said: 'I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. (Isaiah 43:11) The term rendered 'LORD' in that verse is the tetragrammaton. Jehovah is the Saviour. Jesus is Jehovah. This is not the only verse, but it is a good start.

Heavenly Father is a glorified Being that was once as we are where?

Perhaps this is difficult to grasp for some, but it is impossible to deny that the Saviour is a glorfied, resurrected, exalted Being who rules in heaven and once lived on the earth as a man and died as a man. All we Mormons know concerning the Father having done so is just that, that He did. We know not when our where, nor the circumstances of it.

Do people progress to become Gods or godlike with there own planet as a result of the plan of salvation?

We know nothing about whether or not an individual who is saved by the LORD in His kingdom will receive a planet of their own somewhere in the cosmos. Although we get a lot of flack for this, the Mormons do not believe that the saved are at some point presented with a planet. It is ironic however that we receive so much trouble over this not only because we do not even assert the notion, but because the first story of the Bible is about God giving a planet to an immortal man.

What do you do in the afterlife? (I will probably end up in Purgatory or Spirit Prison for while)

The first thing we do in the afterlife is continue our mission which we had here on this earth. Those of us who have received the gospel here will continue to administer to those who do not yet have it there. After judgment and resurrection, we will again continue the work of ministry in the service of God. His work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This work is accomplished through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten. Our role in that work is in the administration of the Gospel and it's ordinances to others. This is an eternal work. It is God's eternal doing.

What is the Holy Ghost/ Spirit?

The Holy Ghost is a Being of Spirit. A man in form, He has no physical body. We know not His origin nor His destiny, however we know that He is a member of the Godhead and His mission is that of the Comforter. In this role, He edifies and uplifts men through the inspiration of the mind and the strengthening of the soul. In short, He gives us knowledge or truth. By receiving this truth, we are made free. Free from doubt and fear. Our daily efforts are to seek the revelations which come by way of the Holy Ghost.

I hope I have helped a little. God bless.

-a-train

[WillowTheWhisp]

What a brilliant thread seeker. I don't have much time at the moment to go into everything and I do hope I remember to come back to it.

Before I go though I jut want to answer this point:

The belief that Christ is the Creator Jehova is some what troubling to me. This would seem to mean that Christ would have given the Mosaic laws he realesed us from. What is the foundation for this belief?

Moses was given the ten commandments. These are still valid. At no time did Jesus ever say that it was OK now to break those. What he did say was that if we do break them then he provides a way for us to repent and be forgiven and restored to our former state.

All things Mosaic are foreshadowing the sacrifice of Christ. They were there to show people and to help them to recognise him when he came. Unfortunately they got bogged down in the the letter of the law and missed the point. If they had all been open to the spirit, as some were, they would have recognised him.

Must come back to this again. :)

[BenRaines]

The rules I laid down for my little children seemed harsh at the time. Don't do this, don't do that. Do just as I say and do not do otherwise. Though they sounded harsh they were to teach them and to keep them from harm. As they got older the restrictions were lightened and they were given new instructions. The old ones did not go away they were already known.

Jesus as creator is so obvious to me when you read the first chapter of John. The Word was with God and the Word was God and by Him were all things created.

Ben Raines

[seeker]

The rules laid down are a father's duty to see to the needs of children and I agree that mosaic law is was needed it is just that Jesus as the creator is new to me. I have always veiwed him as a Savior that suffered and died on the cross for our sins not as a father. If you look at the differnt names for Jesus Son of God, Son of man, Mediator, lamb of God, seem to point to differnt sort of relationship. Some of the other names that are used that are The alpha and Omega, Emanuel, anyways it is worth some thought and prayer.

Thanks

[WillowTheWhisp]

Jesus as the Creator is Biblical. It is found in the New Testament. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16. It isn't unique LDS doctrine. Hope this helps.

[WANDERER]

Well that kind of tips the applecart of my beliefs....so where does God the Father come into the picture?

[Hemidakota]

What personal beliefs are in question?

[seeker]

A friend sent the following

I'll try to address the concern about Jesus Christ being the God of the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament Moses said this in Exodus, "...when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you, and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?" Exodus 2:13

This was the reply, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

In John 8:58 it reads, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (I think it's interesting that there is a comma after the word was. It seems to accent the words: I am. Also it doesn't say Before Abraham was, I was. It says, "Before Abraham was, I am.)

You can make the case in this verse that Jesus was saying that I am was the same I AM as the God of the Old Testament.

In the Book of Mormon Jesus said this. "Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are... (3 Nephi 9: 15) , It comes down to this. Did Jesus Christ actually tell the Nephites that he "created the heavens and the earth"? or not? That's what you have to find out. Is the Book of Mormon a true book of scripture or is it not a true book of scripture.

All the beliefs of the LDS church comes down to this. Is the Book of Mormon a true book of scripture? Was Joseph Smith a prophet of God? Is Thomas S. Monson a true prophet of God?

,

I believe that the Holy Ghost will whisper YES! to all three of these questions if you will continue studying the Book of Mormon and pray about it daily. It has been my experience that when I'm learning the Gospel I feel Hope, Peace, and Joy. When I'm learning something contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ I feel agitated, unsettled and easily angered. The New Testament says that the "fruits of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering gentleness, goodness, faith," think about when you've had these feelings in your life. Watch for these feelings as you continue studying the Book of Mormon prayerfullly and humbly.

The Following are my interpritations of the LDS veiw of God the Father feel free to correct me or expand and revise

Heavenly Father did not create matter it always exsisted he put it into order. He has a body and is of substance. He has a wife and is the father of our spirits. Jesus is the only one with a physical body procreated by HF and Mary. He wants us to return to him and become like him.

Seeker

[Hemidakota]

Matter - correct.

Body - correct [glorified]

Wife - correct

Christ mortal body - correct

Return home - correct

So what is the problem?

[Mobius]

This is an excellent point. I am a former church member and this is one of the doctrinal convolusions that I have yet to answer. So far, it seems to me that the Mormon god is just a really good delegator. He has Jesus create, atone, forgive, mediate, etc. He has the Holy Ghost inspre, guide, uplift, etc. He has people do the leg work to answer others' prayers and build up his church. What does God do? Seriously, can someone tell me what he does (and please don't answer "he has spirit children," that is the type of answer that gives anti-mormons so much ammunition)?

[WillowTheWhisp]

He is our Father and he is in control of everything. Without someone to be the 'boss' things could get confusing.

I was thinking of it like a business owner has to have managers and senior staff and supervisors and workers but the whole thing wouldn't exist if there wasn't the business owned by the business owner. I used to think the same thing about film producers. I could see what actors did. I could see what make-up, props and costume departments did. I could even understand what the directors and cameramen did but it seemed to me that the producer didn't do anything at all. And yet without the producer there wouldn't be a film.

[WANDERER]

Sends the Holy Spirit to give gifts...I think : ).

[VisionOfLehi]

Heavenly Father did not create matter it always exsisted he put it into order. He has a body and is of substance. He has a wife and is the father of our spirits. Jesus is the only one with a physical body procreated by HF and Mary. He wants us to return to him and become like him.

Seeker

WOAH! No one caught this?

That's not quite the way it went down. As the Scriptures teach, so we believe.

Luke 1:

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Matthew 1:

18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Alma 7:

10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

1 Nephi 11:

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!

20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms.

HOW this works, we don't know. She was carried away in the Spirit, and conceived of the Lord by MIRACLE. It was of the doing of the Holy Ghost, by the will of the Father... That's what we know now, and what we have faith in. Perhaps when we go back across the veil we will find out the exact nature of this conception... but until then, this is what we have.

-------

The Law of Moses was meant to teach the Lord's people. They were not ready for the higher law. They needed something a little more harsh, for they were as children. The Lord is merciful, but He is also just and steadfast. He wants his people under His wing, and sometimes a little "tough love" is necessary.

[Hemidakota]

This is an excellent point. I am a former church member and this is one of the doctrinal convolusions that I have yet to answer. So far, it seems to me that the Mormon god is just a really good delegator. He has Jesus create, atone, forgive, mediate, etc. He has the Holy Ghost inspre, guide, uplift, etc. He has people do the leg work to answer others' prayers and build up his church. What does God do? Seriously, can someone tell me what he does (and please don't answer "he has spirit children," that is the type of answer that gives anti-mormons so much ammunition)?

Why don't you ask GOD!

[seeker]

http://http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=88021b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=cf36f48fa2d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

[Jesus Christ] is essentially greater than any and all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.

There is no doubt in the minds of Latter-day Saints in relation to the existence and personage of the Lord God Almighty, who is the Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. There is no doubt in the minds of Latter-day Saints that Jesus is the Son of God, being begotten of the Father in the flesh.

This is where I got the idea. thanks for providing an explination.

Chapter 40: The Father and the Son,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 353

[Andrew777]

Figuring out basic LDS doctrine doesn't seem to be too hard it's all in the Gospel Principles book, as for all the details and such it seems impossible. I've had people tell me that the Heavenly Father isn't the God of the old testament but he did command Jesus to create the world. I read in this thread some believe that Jesus is the God of the entire old testament. I've had people tell me the Archangel Micheal (who apparently is Adam and the first man) had a role in creation and therefore should be considered a God on the same level as Christ. I've heard the getting your own planet thing exerted from Mormons numerous times, even going as far as making jokes about playing Golf with the wife and children on their planet. I've heard other Mormons say it's only speculation and then others say it's not true at all. I've heard all these things claimed by Mormons to be doctrine of the church, personal opinions or just guessing. It's really hard to figure out, I stick with prayer myself and reading the scriptures when I'm not sure, I really don't want some person espousing a personal opinion or false doctrine to turn myself or other people away from investigating the church, it's hard when so many claim personal opinion as doctrine. I've heard a lot of people quote prophets as support for their beliefs, but from what I understand everything prophets say isn't revelation, just the things that they've said is supposed to be taken as revelation for the church is doctrine.

[rameumptom]

This is an excellent point. I am a former church member and this is one of the doctrinal convolusions that I have yet to answer. So far, it seems to me that the Mormon god is just a really good delegator. He has Jesus create, atone, forgive, mediate, etc. He has the Holy Ghost inspre, guide, uplift, etc. He has people do the leg work to answer others' prayers and build up his church. What does God do? Seriously, can someone tell me what he does (and please don't answer "he has spirit children," that is the type of answer that gives anti-mormons so much ammunition)?

God's work is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). His goal is to train his children up in the ways of life everlasting. What better way to train them, than to give them experience by doing?

While the Father delegates, he still keeps close tabs on what is happening. The temple rite shows the Creation occurring as God the Father directs Jesus to create certain parts of the earth. Jesus does so, with the assistance of others, and then reports back. While much of the work is delegated, God still keeps track of the plan and how it is implemented.

IOW, like a great boss today, he tries to empower us. He delegates out his power and authority, in order to have us learn how to grow up to be like Him. This is also why we have trials and struggles in this life: because the experiences are for our eternal good, we can't be saved without them (D&C 123:7-8).

7...know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?

IOW, all of our experiences are delegated to us for our good and growth. But God keeps tabs on all things, and stays in control of the entire plan. He is the architect, and delegates out to the builders where every beam is placed, and every socket installed. This in hopes that someday some of the builders may learn to also become architects, themselves.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Well that kind of tips the applecart of my beliefs....so where does God the Father come into the picture?

"Everlasting Covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this Earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the Earth. They are...God the first, the creator, God the second, the redeemer, and God the third the witness or testator." -Joseph Smith. I don't know what goes in the"..."

This is the doctrine of the Godhead established by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

God our Heavenly Father is a holy, perfected and exalted person. He is person in whose image man is made. He has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans. He lives in the family unit. He has all might, all power, and all dominion. He has all knowledge. He is the creator of all things. He therefore stands supreme in celestial glory, ruling the sidereal heavens according to his laws instituted from before the foundation of the world.

Think of it like this: (not the best example but it suffices)

-A King sits on a hill with a thousand starving people and has commanded them to accept food only from him(because he knows that is the only way they will be nourished).(The decree set up for his stewardships which he has created)

-He tells his Prince to administer bread and water.(The mediation necessary to administer the decree)

-The Prince informs the recipients that these are provisions directly from the King by way of a written letter with a seal of approval.(testifying of the validity and truth of the decree)

This is essentially how the Godhead works. They have their own missions and responsibilities in their dealings with men. Heavenly Father gives the decree to men through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost. All righteousness glorifies the father, because righteousness is the fruit of faith and works. The Fruit. That is the key. The fruits of the work of each member of the Godhead testify of each other to their divinity. "Behold this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" -Moses 1:39 One of the fruits of His work, the immortality, has been paved and will thus happen. So when we gain celestial inheritance, we glorify the Father because we are His fruits. Then we have dominion of our own kingdom, which is our fruit, which increases our glory and increases the glory of the Father by our "increased standing". So our Heavenly Father progresses forth in glory forever and ever, and stands forever at the head. That is why we are not joint-heirs with the father, but with Jesus Christ.

You can also think of the creation story. Heavenly Father gave Jesus Christ authority to create the Earth. Heavenly Father still is the creator, because it is His fruit.

[rameumptom]

One thing that many do not understand is that the Godhead is not impassable, which means they do feel. Some Christians believe God has a different kind of love than we have, and that he is not affected by the sorrows and sufferings of mankind.

Of course, that's not what the scriptures tell us. Jesus wept. He groaned under the sins of the world. The Bible tells us of God's wrath at the sins of people. LDS scripture tells us that the resurrected Jesus wept over the sins of Israel, but also rejoiced that the Nephites had repented and believed. The Book of Moses shows God weeping at the thought of destroying the Earth by Flood.

Of all beings, God is fully God because he is plugged in to all of us. He knows and understands our joys and our sorrows, because he has also experienced them. He is, through the light of Christ that penetrates all of space, connected to all things. And they do influence him. When Hezekiah was told to prepare to die, and the king fasted and prayed, those prayers influenced God into giving Hezekiah 15 more years of life. When the Ninevites repented, much to Jonah's displeasure, God did not destroy them.

If God was impassable, then our prayers would be meaningless. So would our sufferings. It would not matter to God if we were saved or not. But LDS scripture tells us that it is HIS work and HIS glory to bring about the immortality and eternal life of mankind (Moses 1:39). IOW, we are interconnected, and his eternal joy is somewhat dependent upon us, just as my joy is somewhat dependent upon my children growing up well.

Nephi learned in the Vision of the Tree of Life (2 Ne 11-15) that there are two condescensions of God: the Father and the Son both condescend to achieve the atonement. Father gave his grace to Jesus, which gave him the power to do all things, including be a God. Jesus then used that power to atone for us and do other works. We are also commanded to seek God's grace and light, in order for us to also be able to use God's power for righteousness (D&C 93). In fact, the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood (D&C 84) explains that there are steps of grace we can take, which lead us through Christ to the Father and to all that the Father has.

So, Father is very much involved in the entire process. But so is Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and all of those who seek the fulness of God's grace.