Criminal Justice?

[Elphaba]

There are two parts to the criminal justice system. The first part is the court. This part determines if a party is innocent. Not much needs to change in our current system. Yes, I know some get off and mistakes are made in convictions but we do the best we can. The difference is that the courts and judges only determine innocence and guilt. They do not determine the sentence. That happens outside the court system. Also the courts cannot consider past history or previous violations – only innocence or guilt.

The second part of the criminal justice system would be the sentence. This part is very simple.

Following the first conviction the criminal is never incarcerated. Instead they are place on probation. Does not matter what they did the sentence is the same - probation. The probation last until either a second offence is committed or until they demonstrate their rehabilitation.

1)So, according to you, a man who commits sexual assault and murder who has been caught for the first time will be put on probation, and back out in the streets, until he demonstrates he has been rehabilitated. Who determines what, when and how "rehabilitated" he is? And you seriously think it is okay to put this man back out on the street, albeit on probation?

Following the second conviction the criminal is always incarcerated. Again this is not for a period of time but until there is demonstration of rehabilitation.

2)This time it is a man who has committed sexual assault of a minor and it is his second offense. Apparently the first time he was "rehabilitated" it didn't work. So who determines what, when and how "rehabilitation" has taken place this time?

3) The third person is a 19-year-old young girl who is borderline mentally retarded. She has friends who egg her on in the store to steal make up. She has done so twice before, both times released as rehabilitated. This is her third arrest.

It's interesting that you insist, under your program, women will feel safer and not have to worry about being attacked. Well, I'm a woman, and I would be scared to death under your program.

You've just let a rapist and murderer out on probation! How in the world is that supposed to make ME feel safer?

Additionally, prior to catching the pedophile for the second time, you KNEW he was out there, and you KNEW he might come after my children. And now that I KNOW this too, how in the world is that supposed to make ME feel safer?

And finally, are you seriously going to EXECUTE a 19-year-old girl for stealing makeup?

All of your percentages, your math, your cold-hearted "They do not value their life more than five cents," never cease to stun me. And I have said this to you before, and I will say it again.

You know NOTHING about another person's life. To suggest that we, as a society, should KILL people on a third strike, NO MATTER WHAT, is insanity!

It's like you have absolutely no connection to anyone who is human unlesss they believe and think the same way you do. You see no reason for homosexuality in the population, so we don't need them!

Now you see no reason for any criminal who gets three strikes out, regardless of the crime. So you'd send a young girl who steals make up to her death!

What worth is there to writing posts about people we should rid our society of? And who are you to make that call?

Elphaba

[Ray A]

1)And finally, are you seriously going to EXECUTE a 19-year-old girl for stealing makeup?

Perhaps transportation might be a better idea. We need some more larrikins in Oz.

[Elphaba]

Perhaps transportation might be a better idea. We need some more larrikins in Oz.

I had to look up what a "larrikin" is, and sounds good to me. I'm not sure the entire country of Australia would be pleased!

Besides Ray, I've seen you on other boards, and I think you'd make ten larrikins yourself. Consider it your contribution to the cause!

Elphaba

[Elgama]

until we have perfect people running the criminal justice system it will never be perfect but I think a blanket system is wrong and I just think back to some horrific stories of the past - a 6 year old boy sentenced to hang for inciting a riot, he was crying for his Mum on the gallows, another 6 year old was beheaded for stealing a petticoat, a 9 year old for taking a pot of paint, young children were burned as witches - people who were starving were executed for stealing bread. Something about your ideas Traveller made me think of those situations like this where the criminal justice system had no room for mercy, or tolerance or understanding.

My brother would have been dead at 16 by your system at 22 he was a hairdresser with a future and silly situation he is in now where he sent an ex girlfriend a naked picture of herself would certainly have sent him to the gallows despite him being a very ill man. My husband recently fell foul of the justice system even the sheriff (judge) wanted to drop the case basically he hit a wall with a car did no damage and didn't report it to the police in that case the sheriff gave him the lightest sentence possible because he was annoyed the procurator fiscal (prosecutor) wouldn't drop the case had the procurator fiscal had his way my husband could have lost his licence. Our systems need room for mercy and checks and balances within them each case is different and involves human beings, every criminal is a human being beneath that.

-Charley

[Ray A]

Besides Ray, I've seen you on other boards, and I think you'd make ten larrikins yourself. Consider it your contribution to the cause!

Elphaba

I have indeed been controversially around LDS-related boards since 2000, almost all of them, but I'm winding down now. Enough love/hate relationships in that wake. The addiction for communication and expression hasn't waned much, but I'm much more relaxed in the last six months after "retiring" from 28 years of child raising and living on my own. Forums are a terrible distraction on days off because I get so little done domestic-wise, and I keep saying "this time I'm going to stay off boards and change the car oil and filters!". Never happens. I like the more civil environment here (and the board format), with rules, because when there are no rules, the real larrikin in me comes out! And I can be a real pest. I need mods pointing a metaphorical gun at my head to keep me under control.

Note to self: Stay off LDS Talk today. Do shopping, laundry, etc., before work this afternoon. Behave self.

[Elphaba]

I have indeed been controversially around LDS-related boards since 2000, almost all of them, but I'm winding down now. Enough love/hate relationships in that wake. The addiction for communication and expression hasn't waned much, but I'm much more relaxed in the last six months after "retiring" from 28 years of child raising and living on my own. Forums are a terrible distraction on days off because I get so little done domestic-wise, and I keep saying "this time I'm going to stay off boards and change the car oil and filters!". Never happens. I like the more civil environment here (and the board format), with rules, because when there are no rules, the real larrikin in me comes out! And I can be a real pest. I need mods pointing a metaphorical gun at my head to keep me under control.

Note to self: Stay off LDS Talk today. Do shopping, laundry, etc., before work this afternoon. Behave self.

Hey darlin,

I was NOT complaining. I've enjoyed your posts immensely. And yes, I have noticed a significant positive bent to your posts. However, I did not mind your posts from before. I have been called the "board nag," so I am no one to talk about "positivity."

Elphaba

[Ray A]

I have been called the "board nag,"....

Thanks Elphaba, every board needs someone to keep posters on their toes. You do a good job of it.

(Now I'm really off to do my shopping, and I actually managed to stay off most of the day! )

[Traveler]

D&C 1

So, three strikes, not 77? And what is the Lord's punishment? Withdrawal of the Spirit, not physical death. He gave Noah's generation 120 years to change.

Traveler, just out of interest, do you see any of your concepts being supported by the Book of Mormon?

I believe that many of the honored men in the Book of Mormon (including Moroni) were willing to take the lives of those that threatened their wives, their children, their families, their laws and their way of life. I do not recall 77 or more chances to repent or 120 years to change.

It appears obvious why so many live in fear - it appears to me that those that could do something do not really care about those that must live in fear. Perhaps I am the extreamiest. Perhaps it is unrealistic to believe that criminals and not citizens should fear.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I believe that many of the honored men in the Book of Mormon (including Moroni) were willing to take the lives of those that threatened their wives, their children, their families, their laws and their way of life. I do not recall 77 or more chances to repent or 120 years to change.

It appears obvious why so many live in fear - it appears to me that those that could do something do not really care about those that must live in fear. Perhaps I am the extreamiest. Perhaps it is unrealistic to believe that criminals and not citizens should fear.

The Traveler

An additional note - it does not mean that a person is unforgiving if they bring a person to justice. It is not hate when a person disciplines even their own children. At least it should not be. I am concerned if it is thought that I seek revenge. My concern is the safety of our families, our laws, our way of life and even our own lives. I would gladly give my own life if necessary for the safety of innocent people. Is there no agreement that the first concern and greatest concern is for the innocent?

[skalenfehl]

I remember Captain Moroni's passion of liberty and his willingness to defend it. He didn't take any guff from the king men.

[a-train]

It's just a lot easier when the cops show up and the intruder has already been taken out by grandma with the ol' shotgun.

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

What's that sonny? Where's grandpa?

[Traveler]

Thank most of you from your considered responses. I am not sure some of you understand what a system like this would do. As I pointed out almost all violent crime would end - the reason is because almost all of the violent crimes (which include murder, rape, aggravated assault, armed theft and others) are committed by repeat offenders. I realize that there are some exceptions but the overwhelimg majority are committed by repeat offenders. And repeat offenders currently have a propensity to become more violent. It is very seldom that a first criminal offense is violent - it is very rare.

In our current system of criminal justice over 90 percent of violent crimes are not committed by a criminal until they have been incarcerated for a period of time. This is because softer criminals are forced to learn to survive with hard core violent criminals inside our prison system. In my system there would be very few hard core criminals – even within the prison system. Over 80 percent of them would no longer be there and if their violence increased while on probabation they would end up in prison and if continued there their violence would some to and end. What few citizens understand is how prevalent harden violent criminals are in our society. Many states have a web site where you can look up for example child molesters. Few realize that living in most metropolitan areas will place you within 5 blocks of at least one (usually much more) harden repeat offender of child molestation.

90 percent of the violent criminals currently walking the streets of your towns and neighborhoods would no longer be there. Since most of the crimes are committed by a few of the criminals and since harden criminals currently are so prone to repeat their crimes – this system would eliminate over 90 per cent of curent violent crimes. (though I am sure someone is bound to be stupid enough to perfer our current system and current volumn of crimes)

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to improve this system? I welcome any “sane” and logical thinking. Thanks

The Traveler