Some questions for Mormons

[xanmad33]

I read over his paper and I read some rebuttal papers, honestly,there was nothing damning or even proveable imo, I would def not be calling victory if I were you

Personally I am not a historian so that means I would need to use sources to gather my information, which clearly you do not want me to do... However as a side note, when I do gather information I use many different sources, and try to find as independant as I can get (not always possible but I try).

This thread will just become a revolving display case of this evidence vs. that evidence if I was to gather a case against it anyway... I'm also a little hesitant to participate in this conv anymore because clearly there are people who feel I am persecuting them and that makes me very cautious because I would never want anyone to feel that way...

And really, now I understand you do not believe the Bible or the BOM to be infallable and that clears up a lot of my questions right there.

[skalenfehl]

I think it's more accurate to say that we believe that the doctrine in both books is infallible, but obviously there have been weaknesses in writing and inaccuracies as the result of their handling by men.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I would like to expand on what I said earlier. The Bible and Book of Mormon are incomplete. The Bible had books removed(lost books) and all the mysteries of God are not stated. The Book of Mormon was not fully translated.(1/3 of gold plates were sealed and could not be read, might have been 2/3 but I can't remember). The reason for this is self-evident, God does not want man to have certain knowledge's because they are not ready for it. Therefore He just withholds them. (my interpretation of the reason)

All the truth that we need for Salvation, is in the Bible and Book of Mormon. They are complete, yet they are incomplete. In reference to the eternities, ALL of the knowledge that exists is not contained in the two books. Therefore they are also incomplete in that respect.

I agree with skalenfehl. The doctrine is infallible. We have what we need. But it just helps to understand(I feel) that not everything is there. It allows us to think for ourselves how it relates to us. It allows us to be directed by the Spirit.

[Dale]

Xan-I am going to start calling you Xan for short.

I will let you have your opinion. I am not in the i am right you are wrong kind of discussions. Only you can convince yourself that what you have been exposed to on Mormonism is wrong. I suffer from Multiple Sclerosis so i don't drive now. I was LDS at one point. I became a member of the Community of Christ in 2005. My associations with the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now called named Community of Christ) started in 1988. But i attended witnessing to Mormons seminars, ect whenever i could. These days i have to keep up with what's hot among the witnessing to Mormons crowd via the internet. I read the new books, try and watch the new films which i keep in a shoe box. I recently had to throw out a pile of tracts. Apologetics to me is for self defense, and helping others not to convince critics. My exposure to such stuff kept me a Book of Mormon believer.

If you have a technical objection FAIR has a contact them option. They will e-mail you a one, or more responses. I do not claim to be an expert on Bible transmission issues. And if you have a specific objection to what John Gee said in his talk FAIR might be one way you can get back friendly answers.

With lost Bible books any number of them might be non-canonical Apocryphal writings. But i do not wave away all such books without certain evidence as just Apocryphal type writings. The typical response i hear to the lost books is that they are not to be viewed as scripture. So no Evangelical would see a need to view to add these lost books if found to the Bible. Though Craig Blomburg an Evangelical scholar might be willing to add a New Testament book if it met certain criteria.

I do think i would be interested in persuing the New Testament verses cited by the church Fathers. Were they witnesses only to copies, or the original lost New Testament books? Does any the material you have read deal with that?

[Elgama]

This thread will just become a revolving display case of this evidence vs. that evidence if I was to gather a case against it anyway... I'm also a little hesitant to participate in this conv anymore because clearly there are people who feel I am persecuting them and that makes me very cautious because I would never want anyone to feel that way...

And really, now I understand you do not believe the Bible or the BOM to be infallable and that clears up a lot of my questions right there.

OK I think this is in your own mind right now not one person on this post with the exception of yourself has felt persecuted - if a discussion about religion doesn't get personal then for me its not of God - Religion should be one of the most personal things in a persons life, but noone has got nasty with you, but they have asked you personal questions about your faith.

You have asked many times and people have explained to you why they are LDS its nothing to do with Doctrine or History - because basically they have had divine revelation which most LDS receive regularly - but I am still not sure what sect of Christianity you belong to, how you perceive the trinity what model do you follow - you seem very willing to ask about our faith but without knowing exactly which brand of Christianity you are answering your questions is difficult and one sided. These are the reasons you come across as someone who just wants to attack our Faith - someone like prisonchaplain or DrT who have a lot of respect on the site have that respect because they converse instead of interrogate - I have an understanding of their beliefs, and both are great men with a fantastic spirit and we have a dialogue going

It is very difficult to understand a message on a forum because we don't have intonation and facial expression - Also I am an historian there is no such thing as an unbiased independent document first thing you should learn on a history degree - every document has an agenda and is to some measure propaganda for the person writing it.

-Charley

[xanmad33]

Xan-I am going to start calling you Xan for short.

I will let you have your opinion. I am not in the i am right you are wrong kind of discussions. Only you can convince yourself that what you have been exposed to on Mormonism is wrong. I suffer from Multiple Sclerosis so i don't drive now. I was LDS at one point. I became a member of the Community of Christ in 2005. My associations with the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (now called named Community of Christ) started in 1988. But i attended witnessing to Mormons seminars, ect whenever i could. These days i have to keep up with what's hot among the witnessing to Mormons crowd via the internet. I read the new books, try and watch the new films which i keep in a shoe box. I recently had to throw out a pile of tracts. Apologetics to me is for self defense, and helping others not to convince critics. My exposure to such stuff kept me a Book of Mormon believer.

If you have a technical objection FAIR has a contact them option. They will e-mail you a one, or more responses. I do not claim to be an expert on Bible transmission issues. And if you have a specific objection to what John Gee said in his talk FAIR might be one way you can get back friendly answers.

With lost Bible books any number of them might be non-canonical Apocryphal writings. But i do not wave away all such books without certain evidence as just Apocryphal type writings. The typical response i hear to the lost books is that they are not to be viewed as scripture. So no Evangelical would see a need to view to add these lost books if found to the Bible. Though Craig Blomburg an Evangelical scholar might be willing to add a New Testament book if it met certain criteria.

I do think i would be interested in persuing the New Testament verses cited by the church Fathers. Were they witnesses only to copies, or the original lost New Testament books? Does any the material you have read deal with that?

Whats interesting to me about these claims is that the Bible is thousands of years old and no claim of it being corrupted has EVER been proven.

All you have posted in regard to "lost books" and corruption is complete speculation.

With all of the massive manuscript evidence of the Bible, you would think there would be massive discrepancies -but just the opposite is true. New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% (5) of the text. Most of the discrepancies that do occur are in spelling and word order through translation. There are only two passages that are disputed by Biblical scholars but no discrepancy is of *any doctrinal significance* (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine). Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons:

The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors.

2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived

Never has one prophesy or fact or anything in it been proven false. Never.

I have read pro/con websites of the Bible, I have watched the History channel account and read much of the history myself, (obviously my evidence isn't only coming from my church)

and there is nothing damning, not remotely. There may be places hard to understand, but there has never been a proven contradiction.

All the speculation, is just that, speculation.

And it's ok to speculate, because it forces a good hard look to be done, but its also important when speculating, that you rememeber, it IS speculation, not a fact.

The reason I brought the Bible up was to compare it against the Book of Mormon, in evidences, and it reasons for you not trusting it.

My question still remains, What about the Book of Mormon? How many translations have been made of it? Is it less reliable in French or German?

Does the church put a disclaimer on the Book of Mormon in other languages for translational errors as they do with the Bible? If not, why not?

If professional LDS translators can reliably take the English Book of Mormon into French, why can't professional translators take the Greek New Testament into English?

Since most likely the answer will be, "thats why we have a prophet", my question becomes, how do you guard against false teachings?

If your prophet gave a revelation that differed from church teachings in the past, how do you determine which to follow? If All books of faith are fallable, How do you really know the prophet it true? How do you difinitively know there is a need for a prophet?

The apostle Paul warned believers not to listen to anyone who teaches another gospel (Galatians 1:6-8). There are many false teachers who preach a "gospel" and a "Jesus," and a spirit may accompany them. So we know that there are false gospels, false christs and unholy spirits (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-14). How to you protect form that? How do you "test" the spirits? If all books are corrupted in some way,how do you know what parts to use?

Im sure the "spirits" would not look, or feel "bad" kwim? How would you really know since Satan is a liar and a deciever, plus he was beautiful in appearance...

These are all just my remaining thoughts that I still feel have not been adequately answered throughout this discussion and really, they are at the heart of what I do not understand about LDS.

[xanmad33]

OK I think this is in your own mind right now not one person on this post with the exception of yourself has felt persecuted - if a discussion about religion doesn't get personal then for me its not of God - Religion should be one of the most personal things in a persons life, but noone has got nasty with you, but they have asked you personal questions about your faith.

You have asked many times and people have explained to you why they are LDS its nothing to do with Doctrine or History - because basically they have had divine revelation which most LDS receive regularly - but I am still not sure what sect of Christianity you belong to, how you perceive the trinity what model do you follow - you seem very willing to ask about our faith but without knowing exactly which brand of Christianity you are answering your questions is difficult and one sided. These are the reasons you come across as someone who just wants to attack our Faith - someone like prisonchaplain or DrT who have a lot of respect on the site have that respect because they converse instead of interrogate - I have an understanding of their beliefs, and both are great men with a fantastic spirit and we have a dialogue going

It is very difficult to understand a message on a forum because we don't have intonation and facial expression - Also I am an historian there is no such thing as an unbiased independent document first thing you should learn on a history degree - every document has an agenda and is to some measure propaganda for the person writing it.

-Charley

As far as history, I agree, and thats why I was asking if you have looked at other proofs other than LDS. (which you later answred)

As far as your personal remarks about me, I feel it mostly from you to be honest. But I do not feel persecuted

I was unaware of any questions about my faith that I had not answered? I must have missed that, sorry.

There has been so many things posted that I have been taking my time to read them all and it has taken a couple days, I hope you will forgive me for anything you may have read more into than there actually was.

To your questions: I am undonominational

here is the statement of faith from my church on Jesus:

"There is only one true God, Who is revealed in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is the Word (Logos) of God. The Word was with God in the beginning, which states His pre-existence as one with God. "By Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth" (Colossians 1:16), therefore making Jesus the Creator. Jesus Christ is the Purpose of God found in all of creation. He is the Father's delight and desire, and the Father is looking for the reflection of His Son in all created things. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. In the beginning, it was the ultimate purpose of God for all things to be summed up in Christ (Ephesians 1:10).

Jesus Christ, Who pre-existed with God in the form of God, emptied Himself to become fully a man that He might be the propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Through His propitiatory sacrifice made on the cross, all who believe in Him and His sacrifice have their sins remitted and are restored to the fellowship with God lost by man's transgression.

Jesus was born of a virgin, by the seed of the Holy Spirit. His virgin birth is a testimony that only the Spirit can beget that which is Spirit. Those of the new creation are not solely of human origin, but are born from above by the Holy Spirit. The resurrection of Jesus' physical body after His crucifixion was literal, as will be the resurrection of both the just and the unjust on the Day of Judgment.

"There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Timothy 2:5). All who seek restoration and fellowship with God must go through Jesus and cannot approach God through any person, spirit or doctrine. It is also a supreme presumption for any person or institution to seek to be mediator for others in place of Christ Jesus Himself.

anything else you want to know I will be happy to answer.

[Elgama]

Since most likely the answer will be, "thats why we have a prophet", my question becomes, how do you guard against false teachings?

If your prophet gave a revelation that differed from church teachings in the past, how do you determine which to follow? If All books of faith are fallable, How do you really know the prophet it true? How do you difinitively know there is a need for a prophet?

The apostle Paul warned believers not to listen to anyone who teaches another gospel (Galatians 1:6-8). There are many false teachers who preach a "gospel" and a "Jesus," and a spirit may accompany them. So we know that there are false gospels, false christs and unholy spirits (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-14). How to you protect form that? How do you "test" the spirits? If all books are corrupted in some way,how do you know what parts to use?

Im sure the "spirits" would not look, or feel "bad" kwim? How would you really know since Satan is a liar and a deciever, plus he was beautiful in appearance...

These are all just my remaining thoughts that I still feel have not been adequately answered throughout this discussion and really, they are at the heart of what I do not understand about LDS.

When you have experienced both God and Satan there is just no comparison- if the God you follow encourages you to be a better person, leads you wisely, causes joy, wants you to have good self esteem and encourages growth in your life he is not Satan - if the course you on is short term gain, euphoria, etc then its not God the pattern your life takes tells you whether God or Satan is guiding you.

The Narnia Books had a huge impact on my spirituality along with the Great Divorce - In the Last Battle CS Lewis has a young Calorman who has been worshiping Tash (I guess Satan) all his life - has lived an honourable life, and worshiped the best he could with the knowledge he had. There is also a monkey who has been playing lip service to Aslan (Jesus) and a donkey who was tricked. At the end the monkey is carried off by Tash, but the donkey is given a chance to repent, and the Calorman recognises Aslan and worships him - Aslan says that no good could be done in Tash's name and no evil in Aslan's name.

This brings us back to the woman who Jesus compared to a dog - she recognised Him when many of Israel did not. There is only one God and if you call Him Jehovah, Eloheim, Father, Allah, Krishna, Vishnu, etc as long as he is exhorting you to good that is God. However if you are using those names and being exhorted to evil then that is Satan.

I think it was a talk by Neal A Maxwell that talked about good, better and best choices - good and better are ours, best is the Lords and anything else is from Satan

It really is very simple.

-Charley

[xanmad33]

When you have experienced both God and Satan there is just no comparison- if the God you follow encourages you to be a better person, leads you wisely, causes joy, wants you to have good self esteem and encourages growth in your life he is not Satan - if the course you on is short term gain, euphoria, etc then its not God the pattern your life takes tells you whether God or Satan is guiding you.

The Narnia Books had a huge impact on my spirituality along with the Great Divorce - In the Last Battle CS Lewis has a young Calorman who has been worshiping Tash (I guess Satan) all his life - has lived an honourable life, and worshiped the best he could with the knowledge he had. There is also a monkey who has been playing lip service to Aslan (Jesus) and a donkey who was tricked. At the end the monkey is carried off by Tash, but the donkey is given a chance to repent, and the Calorman recognises Aslan and worships him - Aslan says that no good could be done in Tash's name and no evil in Aslan's name.

This brings us back to the woman who Jesus compared to a dog - she recognised Him when many of Israel did not. There is only one God and if you call Him Jehovah, Eloheim, Father, Allah, Krishna, Vishnu, etc as long as he is exhorting you to good that is God. However if you are using those names and being exhorted to evil then that is Satan.

I think it was a talk by Neal A Maxwell that talked about good, better and best choices - good and better are ours, best is the Lords and anything else is from Satan

It really is very simple.

-Charley

So another words it doesnt matter if your Mormon? As long as you are a good person?

[Elgama]

So another words it doesnt matter if your Mormon? As long as you are a good person?

to me no I can't give you my testimony -I can tell you what I believe but only the Holy Ghost can convert, no amount of anything I can do can change your heart, In our faith you have to work really hard to go to Outer Darkness (hell) - however your religious beliefs do determine how far you can progress throughout eternity

If your God exhorts you to good than you worship the same God as I do. And I believe many that call God by a different name to myself know Him that when they see Him will worship Him. I see my God in their countenance. My progression is no more assured than anyone else who knows God.

-Charley

[xanmad33]

When you have experienced both God and Satan there is just no comparison- if the God you follow encourages you to be a better person, leads you wisely, causes joy, wants you to have good self esteem and encourages growth in your life he is not Satan - if the course you on is short term gain, euphoria, etc then its not God the pattern your life takes tells you whether God or Satan is guiding you.

-Charley

I would agree with you that there is no comparison, but my question has been, How do you know you have ever experienced God before?

And have you considered what the Bible says about Satan and trusting "feeling in your heart"?

The Bible tells us that satan comes in many forms, "for such men are false apostles [spurious, counterfeits], deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles (special messengers) of Christ... And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light; So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness... 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (Amplified Bible).

Satan is incredibly subtle. We are warned that he uses professing men of God (ministers of righteousness) to deceive the Church. The Bible calls him "the god of this world," and says that he blinds the minds of unbelievers. Jesus called him "the prince of this world," and "the father of lies."

The Scriptures tell us his power is very great in the world. He is a "roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet. 5:8). Men are said to be "taken captive by him" (2 Tim. 2:26). Christians are warned against his "devices" (2 Cor. 2:11), and called on to "resist" him (James 4:7).

So if your definition is correct, then what about wiccans? They are good people who say they feel very spiritual, and do good for others becasue they know that the god and goddess will reward them..

Who would you say is guiding them? God? Satan?

[skalenfehl]

So another words it doesnt matter if your Mormon? As long as you are a good person?

Not necessarily. Consider what Jesus told Nicodemus as only one example in the Bible of what is necessary for salvation:

John 3: 1-5

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Which church has the authority to act in God's name? Which church has the priesthood necessary to administer in the necessary ordinances pertaining to our salvation? We believe that our church is led by a prophet who has this authority to act in God's name, that this authority exists for those necessary ordinances.

The bible cannot baptize us by water or by fire (gift of the Holy Ghost/2nd Comforter by the laying on of hands). The bible cannot give any one man the priesthood authority to act in God's name. It must be given by God as Christ did when He called his apostles and prophets. Only thus did the apostles have the authority to go into all the land baptizing in Chirst's name as mentioned in the New Testament. Christ will only recognize the authority that he gave to His anointed in His true church. That is part of our doctrine.

[Elgama]

I would agree with you that there is no comparison, but my question has been, How do you know you have ever experienced God before?

And have you considered what the Bible says about Satan and trusting "feeling in your heart"?

The best parents know to treat each child as unique not equal - you give that child what right for them - like I tell my kids you need to be your own kind of beautiful.

Heavenly Father is the same He loves and knows us all, my experiences are more than feelings have ranged from conversations with other people right through to being rescued from a very dark experience with evil like in the first vision account all I could do was pray. I need more because of my natural affinity with other religions lol - someone else may need less. We are all at different stages in our learning and sometimes the time is not right for someone to be LDS - I know in my case my 10 years searching and praying for my baptism has allowed me to progress further as a Latter Day Saint than I would have as a child growing up in an LDS home - my husband has progressed coming from an LDS home. We come to a knowledge of our way back to Heavenly Father when we are as ready as we will ever be and the rest is upto us

So if your definition is correct, then what about wiccans? They are good people who say they feel very spiritual, and do good for others becasue they know that the god and goddess will reward them..

Who would you say is guiding them? God? Satan?

- the fruits of their labours show who they worship. The various Pagan friends I have had over the years have definitely had my God in their countenance so we worship the same God. So it depends on the Wiccan. Just like I have met Latter Day Saints who do not worship the same God as I do

And to answer your question about the Bible - I do not come to any conclusions without praying and receiving confirmation from Heavenly Father. The Bible can be quoted and taken out of context. Personally I do not use Bible or Book of Mormon quotes in this type of discussion, its part of my relationship with God which is mine, we are cautioned against adding or taking away from its words my own human understandings can do that very easily which is why I do nothing without God saying yes or no - only God through prophets can add to it- I view it as truly a pearl of great price which as the bible says we should not allow to be trodden under foot (I am not referring to you as swine just the kind of discussion):)

-Charley

[Dale]

Xan you are basing a case for no doctrinal significant changed based on persons who have only seen copies. They have never seen the originals which are lost, so are no experts on the original. I see the scholars you refer to as speculating the case for inerrancy has been won based on only what they have seen. I recall Mark Twain as once saying there were three kinds of lies, damned lies, infernal lies and statistics. The 99.5% statistic only helps the copies so to me its a lie if used to say the copies match the original inerrantly.

You avoided my argument. All it takes is one corrupted single copy by a corrupt group of men, or copyists to effect honestly kept later copies? Honest men would have no need to effect the Bible by tampering with God's word. At most all the correct copies in the world says nothing about whether the first copy was transmitted correctly? How do you connect the dots between the type of scrappy manuscripts John Gee points to and them being exact copies of the originals. They can't do comparison studies based on missing text they have not seen.

1.You cannot prove the integrity of those who copied the originals. If everyone can be proved to follow that meticulous method thats fine with me. You can't prove that they did without digging up the lost originals.

2.I reject the idea that the Holy Sprit protected the beginning copies of the originals. If you want to prove that to be dig up the lost originals so i can test your assumption. I am aware of Bible Reliability proof texts and feel it is scripture twisting.

With lost Bible books those who say none of them were scriptural are speculating. It may be true many of them might be, but i know of no Bible verse where these books are referred to where they are clearly treated as fiction. So to me the closed canon idea is still at risk because if any of them were meant to be in the Bible, but you say they arn't you are wrong. Do you admit you are wrong about them since you are speculating? If you can speculate why can't i? If the Bible has been inerrantly preserved would not God want me to apply logic and reason to testing the claims of men?

So far when reading you reply to me i see you relying on others opinion. And those who make the opinion can only document their opinion based on documentation that post-dates the lost originals. They hope the originals arn't in any danger, but don't know that.

We are talking Bible preservation. I don't want to talk other issues with you until we are done talking Bible reliability. You said other stuff i could reply to. But i want to mainly discuss Bible reliability issues with you. I plan to raise a lot of issues in the next few days on that. I will pick out stuff out of one of my critics books and we can go back and forth on all the topics.

With one issue the Greek can be translated right into english. Why could it not be? As long as it matches the greek it is a correct translation. But the Article of Faith are not scripture to me. My church has an official statement of belief and do not use it as much as we used to. In fact i wish it talked about transmission, and not just translation. To me transmission issues are more important than translation issues because i trust the KJV translators. I feel more importantly than translation that the first transmitted copies must match the oroginals. So the KJV translators can do a good job, but not know of added to or deleted material because they only worked with copies.

The church Fathers writings have been used to support New Testament reliability. I guess you did not find out whether they saw only copies, or the bonified originals? This is one source of Bible reliability evidence used to prop up the scrappy collection of New Testament manuscripts. But with any witness we need to cross-examine their reliability as witnesses.

[Dale]

I test my Jesus, God, and Gospel each time i read their books against Mormonism. They do not persuade me they have the exclusive truth. I was reading Mormonism Unmasked by a leading Southern Baptist critic of Mormonism today. I took out my Bible-repondered the argument i was studying read the scriptures in context. I have Books like Reasoning From the Scriptures with the Mormons by Ron Rhodes and Marian Bodine. I look up their commentary on the proof texts i use to support my belief. I know how to read my Bible. I just do not grant that these critics of Mormonism read their Bible all the time right. As a habit if i can when citing a scripture i try and look up the Evangelical commmentary lest i be accused of scripture twisting.

See i am not into just asking God in prayer for wisdom in discerning true from false teaching. I take out my Bible and apply the Barean test. (Acts 17:11) So i feel i can trust God twice as much than if i just relied on my feelings. Feelings can mislead. Feelings do not always mislead. Just do not test the truth like the Thessalonicans and my Anti-Mormon writers do.

The Barean test is abused by them. "And the people of Barea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth. As a result, many Jews believed, as many of the prominent Greek women and men." (Acts 17:11, New Living Translation) My Anti-Mormon authors do not listen eagerly to the Restored Gospel message. They are like the wicked Thessalonicans having their own religion of man. So if they search the scriptures at all its to disprove the message. They have no interest in believing.

[xanmad33]

......

You see, everything you have written is the same speculation you accuse me.

You don't KNOW factually that they HAVE been comprimised. If you look at the evidence between our respective books of faith,

Here is two camparison statements between the reliability of both texts from secular --society:

--"The statement from the National Geographic Society on the Book of Mormon states:

I referred your inquiry to Dr. George Stuart, the Society's staff archaeologist. He told me he knows of no archeological evidence that verifies the history of the early people of the Americas as presented in the Book of Mormon. Although many Mormon sources claim that the Book of Mormon has been substantiated by archeological findings, THIS CLAIM HAS NOT BEEN VERIFIED SCIENTIFICALLY (emphasis added).

--The Smithsonian Institute writes in reference to the Book of Mormon:, "The Smithsonian Institute has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book."

--The National Geographic Society states in regard to The Bible:

But archaeologists do indeed find the Bible a valuable reference tool, and have used it many times for geographic relationships, old names, and relative chronologies. On the enclosed list, you will find many articles concerning discoveries verifying events discussed in the Bible (note: more than thirty articles are listed).

--The Smithsonian Institute acknowledges about the Bible:

...much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical works can and are used as are other ancient documents in archeological works.

At the end of the day, getting into this evidence vs. this evidence will not change your mind or mine

Im past the Biblical controversy, I understand your belief about it and I respect it, though I disagree, I can see the logic.

I have shifted to your position in this argument (even though, I disagree, I cannot prove my case anymore than you can prove yours, thats why there is faith)

So lets say all of it *is* corrupted, cause it's all from man, my real questions have been highlighted in my past couple of posts, so we know the book of Mormon is corrupted and D&C, and basically all man "handled" things correct?

What about all my other questions? What about your prophet? He is a man. How do you know what he says is from God? How do RELIABLY know anything concrete?

I have heard time and time again that you all have had an "experience" with holy spirit.

Did you read my last couple posts about spirits? Can you tell me how you know this is God?

[skalenfehl]

What about all my other questions? What about your prophet? He is a man. How do you know what he says is from God? How do RELIABLY know anything concrete?

I have heard time and time again that you all have had an "experience" with holy spirit.

Did you read my last couple posts about spirits? Can you tell me how you know this is God?

xanmad, I did already answer those questions and it is the same way that the early saints in the New Testament knew and understood the apostles from their epistles, but even many had a difficult time recognizing it, even as far back as the days of Noah. How could they really have known that Noah was a man of God until it was too late? How did they know Moses was a true prophet until they were delivered from Egypt? Throughout biblical history the prophets were rebuked, ridiculed, rejected, killed, cast out of their cities and imprisoned.

Even the learned men and doctors of the law rejected Christ in the midst of miracles being performed before their very eyes! What could be more sufficient than the fruits that they witnessed? I suspect that my answer wasn't enough and it won't be. Only those humble enough to recognize Christ's divinity by the Holy Ghost knew that the miracles they witnessed were heaven sent. Only through humble prayer to God directly will you ever know which of the churches is His true church and where His authority is found to receive direct revelation from Him and the authority to baptize in His name unto salvation. You are essentially seeking after a sign. We cannot give it to you. It isn't ours to give. But we have truly being trying to show you the way to find out.

[Misshalfway]

What about all my other questions? What about your prophet? He is a man. How do you know what he says is from God? How do RELIABLY know anything concrete?

I have heard time and time again that you all have had an "experience" with holy spirit.

Did you read my last couple posts about spirits? Can you tell me how you know this is God?

Yes. Our prophet is a man. And we are asked to follow him, but only after we pray to the Father and gain our own spiritual witness about what he says. After a while though, one doesn't really need to pray over everything. Once you understand the role of prophet, seer, and revelator and you understand that there are times he speaks as a prophet and times he speaks as a man, it makes it easier to follow. You start working on more expedient questions.

I think, that I understand what God's Spirit feels like much like you might. I suppose if I asked you about your Spiritual awareness of a God, would you not describe an inner knowing? I know that there is a God, because I pray and He answers. I know what the Holy Ghost feels like because I practice listening to it daily. And now I am pretty good at recognizing when I am feeling it vs. my emotions or flatterings from the adversary. The reason that "I know" is because the revelations of the Holy Spirit are more powerful than any earthly evidence. They burn themselves into my soul. The more I obey the promptings, the more I know. I do feel doubt on occasion. But my Spiritual knowledge/experiences help me navigate my way thru that doubt to a place of more faith. As does continual prayer and continual spiritual communications that guide me around the ideas of man and the ideas of those who would seek unrighteous things for my welfare. I think this is why earthy evidence doesn't interest most of us. It is very interesting.... and when it confirms faith then it is a bonus. But it is not the origin of my faith and I don't rely on it to lead my along my journey in life.

[Misshalfway]

Hey Skalenfehl! You following me around???? :) Everywhere I go, you are there too!

[skalenfehl]

Hey Skalenfehl! You following me around???? :) Everywhere I go, you are there too!

I am?

Where are you going next so I can get there first?

[Misshalfway]

You already get there first. I seem to be posting after you. You must have faster sneakers than I. (grumble)

[skalenfehl]

xanmad, I think, as I ponder more your question(s) of how we can truly know, I perceive that it isn't pride that is your stumbling block. I think it might be fear. Hesitation. You don't want to take that leap in the dark. You are afraid that Father in Heaven might not be there to catch you and that you will fall into the unknown.

The way that you can truly know is to begin with faith, hope and love. Love conquers all, including pride, doubt and fear. You have a hope and a faith in better things. These are the seeds of growth but you need to nourish them. How? I challenge to you read one chapter in the Book of Mormon. Turn the computer off and go sit down on your couch. Just you and the Lord and Read Alma chapter 32 in the Book of Mormon. If you don't have a Book of Mormon you can print it out here:

Alma 32

Just read it and ponder this chapter and nothing else. That will be your first stepping stone about faith.

[xanmad33]

thank you for that but I'm not lacking personally in faith nor am i too prideful to heed the call of my Lord. I pray all the time and read his word daily.

I was just trying to understand your beliefs and why you believe them better, thats all

thanks for bearing with me :)

[skalenfehl]

Then I have only one final question for you that strikes me as curious. What do you believe about baptism as far as the need and by what authority?

[xanmad33]

I'm not sure why you are curious about that but here is my belief as stated by my church:

On Water Baptism

We believe that water baptism should be by immersion and accomplished immediately after commitment to the Lordship of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice for our sin. This ordinance is a personal and public statement of faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ on our behalf, and is a commitment to lay down our lives to be one with Him in His death, burial and resurrection.

On the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

We believe that the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is an additional impartation which may be subsequent to regeneration (see Acts 8:15-17 and 19:1-6). This baptism is usually accompanied by the gifts of the Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc.

We believe that this gift is presently available to all who believe (Acts 2:38-39), but is not essential for salvation or regeneration. While these are accomplished by the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1-7), there were disciples who did not even know that there was a Holy Spirit. Just as Paul made it a priority to instruct those believers and pray for them to receive this gift, we are committed to doing the same.

The purpose of the baptism in the Holy Spirit is to impart spiritual power to the believer to be a witness (Acts 1:8, 5:32). This baptism is to be distinguished from being filled with the Spirit (Acts 4:31, 7:55, 13:9,52), which can be a special and repeated empowering for specific purposes.

We believe that when Christians truly have been baptized with the Holy Spirit, they should begin to take on His nature and fruit, becoming "helpers" and "comforters", leading others into truth, and testifying of Jesus.