Some questions for Mormons

[xanmad33]

Hmm. So because we are so full of sin, we cannot trust G_d when He reveals something to us, because we are too sinful? I'm not sure I follow. It is also said in Mark:

Pretty serious stuff if the Holy Ghost reveals something to you and you reject it.

I believe the Holy Ghost to be the Conveyor of truth, but what it comes down to is that intangible thing called faith.

I would not suggest to not listen to the Holy Ghost revealing something to me, but according to his scripture he would NEVER reveal something contrary to what he has already revealed.

I of course believe in the Bible completely and because I believe it I do not have the problem of not trusting.

I used your own logic on you to prove a point. And I think I proved it.

The Bible is not some impossible to understand book, we are told to "study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the word of God"

If it were impossible know anything in the Bible for certain truth then why are we commanded to "rightly divide" it?

We believe the Bible to be the word of G_d, as far as it is translated correctly. This is part of our faith. We do not deny anything the Bible says, we just read it differently than most "traditional Christians", because we have clarification on it's doctrines and teachings in the additional scriptures we have. Just because we say the Bible is not "inerrant", does not mean it is false. It just needs clarification on some things.

The Bible has conflicting references of different things, and there has been an attempt to make them fit the understanding of men.

Who says it needs that clarification?

The Bible certainly does not.

The Bible's reliability is based on what? The validations of other men, part of the same sinful group that we are not to rely on. This is a contradiction to me. The Bible is true because men wrote it, men translated it, men claim it to be a valid historical document. Being a historical document has no bearing on the significance of the spiritual things contained within it.

These men that validate everything for you, their hearts are sinful and not to be trusted, which is the evidence you put forth that the Book of Mormon, and Pearl of Great Price are false.

Bottom line, the kingdom of G_d, will be built upon the rock of revelation through the Holy Ghost, not through man.

The Bible is reliable for many reasons, I have already outlined a few for you, but my consistant point has been to compare that to your books of faith. You rely on Mormon doctrines more than the Bible, and I cannot understand why?

The Bible encourages believers to have a knowledge-based faith, built upon sound biblical doctrine. When Paul preached the gospel, he did it through reasoning from the scriptures and not an appeal to blind faith.

To your bottom line: Your contradicting yourself! You ARE trusting a MAN for your revelation from the Holy Spirit! Its COMING FROM A MAN!

[skalenfehl]

I'd be careful calling the Holy Spirit a spirit of the devil xanmadd:

Mark 3:29-30 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Where did she say that? I missed it.

[a-train]

BUMP

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanmad33

A-train, I appreciate your questions, but they are misleading to say the least.

The reason I answer these questions using your own scripture, is to illistrate the completely opposing doctrines we both hold with regard to WHO the person we both call "Christ" even is.

But you have not answered my questions. Again, please refrain from telling me what I believe. With all respect, you frankly do not know. You don't need to educate me on the subject.

Please answer my questions. If you will show me this courtesy, I will answer yours.

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear, God (Jesus) has a body of flesh and bone, correct?

Please just answer my questions from your point of view. I know very well how Joseph Smith and LDS leaders answer these questions.

-a-train

[Andrew777]

Where did she say that? I missed it.

Right here, apparently we are being deceived and devoured by Satan and tricked by a spirit that appears to be an angel of light:

According to scripture, not only can I not trust the unobservable heart you, I can’t even trust my own heart.

But then you may argue it is not the heart of man that reveals the truth, but the spirit that is manifest unto them and it brings me right back to these verses illistrating that there are many spirits, and not all are truthful:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils” 1 Timothy 4:1

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel…let him be accursed” Galatians 1:8

“And no Marvel; for Satan Himself is transformed into an angel of Light.” II Corinthians 11:14

Scripture is clear, wdde cannot discern truth from what a spirit tells us. One particular spirit, Satan, who’s purpose is to deceive and devour (Revelation 12:9, 1 Peter 5:8), can transform himself into an angel of light. And demonic spirits can appear as angels from heaven who will preach a kind of gospel, (the false kind). We should not be opening our hearts to be influenced by such spirits, believing everything they teach or lead us to believe, but rather test them, lest we fall prey to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.

This was in response to a post that we pray and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Doctrines of devil? We are opening our hearts to be influenced by satanic spirits?

[xanmad33]

And this is what it boils down to insults...we don't worship the Heavenly Father or believe Christ is Saviour because we don't believe in the trinity -- instead we take heed to Satan, xanmadd can't be bothered to answer most of our questions since she's doing nothing but flaming the forum, and she believes that we worship the devil and are guided by demons. Our scripture is evil and was given through revelation by Satan's minions, at best it was written by a con-man.

I would like to thank you for your flaming xanmadd being a new convert myself. Each time I see the same old tired arguments and hear the wonderful replies from the people here and from scripture it draws me closer to a correct understanding of doctrine and God. "Who is it you have ridiculed and blasphemed? Against whom have you raised your voice and lifted your eyes in pride? Against the Holy One of Israel!", Who is it xanmadd, you've blasphemed and ridiculed here, even going as far as to calling him the devil?

Am I ? Are you being persecuted? you have put words in my mouth.

Some Bible verses about asking God and getting answers. Look at the italicized parts -- the lord isn't going to be sending Satan when we ask him for answers --

We serve two different "Gods", so which one is giving the answers?

My point.

This is why I showed earlier our different beliefs about the nature of God.

If you are praying to 3 gods, who were once humans, then you are not praying to the same God of the Bible.

Logically if that were the case, the answers you recieve through prayer, could be argued to not even be of "God"

James 1:5 -- If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 15:7-8 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. (This one is a good one for Christian denominations that have been killing each other for hundreds of years)

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 5:14-15 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

John 16:23-24 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Isn't that wonderful!! We're promised a fullness of joy if we ask the Father in his name!

But what "father" are we asking???

None of those verses speak of gaining new revelation about Christ!

None of the verses speak about determining truth!

Wisdom has nothing to do with determining truth!!! The Greek word, sophia (Strong's #G4678),2 translated "wisdom" is never used to describe knowledge or truth. The two words are quite different and are not synonymous. For example, the Greek words translated knowledge are eido,3 gnosis,4 and epiginosko.5 The Greek words for truth include alethos,6 aletheia,7 and alethes.8

The New Testament makes it clear that wisdom and knowledge are not the same. For example, Romans 11:33 contains both words. The distinction is made between the words since the Greek uses the conjunction kai, translated "both" to emphasize that these are two different concepts

The Bible, the Book of Mormon, it all tells us to ask God. Will this matter to xanmadd? Of course not! The logic xanmadd is using -- Mormons are too decieved and too spiritually dead to realize that we're not praying to God and receiving guidance from the spirit, we're praying to Satan and receiving guidance from his devils. Some pastor that hates Mormons or website that despises us told her this. This conversation is stupid, some of us have to put up with this garbage from our own mothers & fathers.

No it doesn't, The Bible doesn't tell you to ask the Holy Spirit for truth in prayer to determine if a book of faith is real, it tells you to look to the scripture for truth.

Nobody is forcing you to participate in this "stupid" conversation.

[xanmad33]

This was in response to a post that we pray and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Doctrines of devil? We are opening our hearts to be influenced by satanic spirits?

Did I say that? Or did I argue a logical point from the Bible?

[Andrew777]

No one is putting words in your mouth, you say we don't worship God and that we look to devilish spirits for answers, do I need to go back and quote all the slurs. You've called Joseph Smith a con-man, you've called the Heavenly Father the devil and you've called the Holy Ghost a seducing spirit that gives out the doctrine of devils. You're nothing but a troll, you don't care what we believe or even seek to understand it. You don't care what the bible teaches or what God wants. For my part I believe you worship the same God as I do, I just think you're in error, I bet besides hating Mormons you do a lot of good things.

[xanmad33]

No one is putting words in your mouth, you say we don't worship God and that we look to devilish spirits for answers, do I need to go back and quote all the slurs. You've called Joseph Smith a con-man, you've called the Heavenly Father the devil and you've called the Holy Ghost a seducing spirit that gives out the doctrine of devils. You're nothing but a troll, you don't care what we believe or even seek to understand it. You don't care what the bible teaches or what God wants. For my part I believe you worship the same God as I do, I just think you're in error, I bet besides hating Mormons you do a lot of good things.

I do not hate Mormons sir, and I really don't appreciate your insults.

I have argued LOGIC! I have used the Bible to do that, I have seeked to understand how you "know" that what you are hearing is actually from God. Is that not an important question to ask oneself??

Go ahead and quote me, where has my argument strayed from logical to incendiary?

[Andrew777]

You just said ten minutes ago we don't worship the God of the Bible. I'd consider what seems to be spending upwards of 12 hours a day trying to convince Mormons they look to satanic spirits for truth and don't worship God on their own website to be a hateful thing to do.

[Andrew777]

I have argued LOGIC! I have used the Bible to do that, I have seeked to understand how you "know" that what you are hearing is actually from God. Is that not an important question to ask oneself??

Go ahead and quote me, where has my argument strayed from logical to incendiary?

Just because you use the Bible to insult someone's belief doesn't mean you aren't being insultive, in fact using scripture to be insultive to someone's faith I feel is even more reprehensible.

You called Joseph Smith a con-man a couple days ago.

[xanmad33]

Show me HOW you know your beliefs are true. But, you cannot use the testimonies of other men because they are sinful. No preachers, pastors, evangelists, or even scholars. They are all fallible. Oh, and you cannot use "feelings" either, because Satan has control of those to the extent that you cannot determine truth from lies.

You can't use the Bible either, because there are people that believe it is false, so you cannot use a false book to prove your beliefs either.

Your beliefs are exclusive to you and are based on man made philosophies.

Now with these guidelines, prove your beliefs!

Sounds kinda lop-sided, doesn't it?

I am not talking to Atheists here, am I?

I did not know I needed to prove there was a God to you?

My argument has not been about that. At all.

We both claim to believe in God correct? We both claim to believe in the Bible correct?

My questions have been consistant in getting to the bottom of all your doctrinal differences than what the Bible teaches.

I already know the Bible is true and you are right, that is my own exclusive belief, albeit supported by a great many facts, but still after all the facts are displayed, it does take a leap of faith to believe it is the INFALLABLE word of God. That is all that's contested, and I resigned to that argument long ago in this thread.

My point again...

We both believe in the Bible according to everyone here... In it, there are CLEAR opposing doctrines to that of Mormonism, so HOW do you know yours is right?

If you believe in the Bible like you say you do, how come you cannot reconcile your beliefs to the Word?

I have heard many times that you "know" that your prophet is true because of a feeling, and I have challenged that belief using the Bible. (The Bible you claim to believe in)

If one were to do a comparative investigation of The BOM and the Bible and other Mormon books of doctrine, the evidence FOR the Bible is astonishing!

I have used reason to argue these points, not emotion.

I am appealing to logic.

[xanmad33]

Just because you use the Bible to insult someone's belief doesn't mean you aren't being insultive, in fact using scripture to be insultive to someone's faith I feel is even more reprehensible.

You called Joseph Smith a con-man a couple days ago.

Andrew, I really think you may be misunderstanding me, and maybe assuming the worst here.,,

I have posed logical questions from the Bible in search of TRUTH.

You believe the Bible, I believe the Bible, if thats the REAL case, why are our beliefs so radically different? Thats all my friend, I am trying to learn how you know Joseph Smith is a prophet of God vs. a prophet that scripture warns us. I never said unequivically that he was, but rather used God's word to ask (what I thought to be) some important questions...

[Andrew777]

I am not talking to Atheists here, am I?

I did not know I needed to prove there was a God to you?

My argument has not been about that. At all.

No your argument has been that we're deceived by Satan & that we either pray to Satan, to no one our to ourselves.

We both claim to believe in God correct? We both claim to believe in the Bible correct?

My questions have been consistant in getting to the bottom of all your doctrinal differences than what the Bible teaches.

I already know the Bible is true and you are right, that is my own exclusive belief, albeit supported by a great many facts, but still after all the facts are displayed, it does take a leap of faith to believe it is the INFALLABLE word of God. That is all that's contested, and I resigned to that argument long ago in this thread.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But what "father" are we asking???

None of those verses speak of gaining new revelation about Christ!

None of the verses speak about determining truth!

Wisdom has nothing to do with determining truth!!! The Greek word, sophia (Strong's #G4678),2 translated "wisdom" is never used to describe knowledge or truth. The two words are quite different and are not synonymous. For example, the Greek words translated knowledge are eido,3 gnosis,4 and epiginosko.5 The Greek words for truth include alethos,6 aletheia,7 and alethes.8

The New Testament makes it clear that wisdom and knowledge are not the same. For example, Romans 11:33 contains both words. The distinction is made between the words since the Greek uses the conjunction kai, translated "both" to emphasize that these are two different concepts

Obviously you do not believe the bible is the infallible word of God. It's infallible up to the point where it disagrees with your denomination's beliefs, then it becomes open to re-translation and contextual debate as can be seen by the post above.

Answer this you being a woman and the bible being infallible --- 1 Corinthians 33-36 As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 --- Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I suppose those verses aren't taken in context and they're just meant to specific people in that time, or our translation of something isn't being properly translated?

My point again...

We both believe in the Bible according to everyone here... In it, there are CLEAR opposing doctrines to that of Mormonism, so HOW do you know yours is right?

If you believe in the Bible like you say you do, how come you cannot reconcile your beliefs to the Word?

I have heard many times that you "know" that your prophet is true because of a feeling, and I have challenged that belief using the Bible. (The Bible you claim to believe in)

If one were to do a comparative investigation of The BOM and the Bible and other Mormon books of doctrine, the evidence FOR the Bible is astonishing!

I have used reason to argue these points, not emotion.

I am appealing to logic.

I don't believe the bible is clearly opposing Mormon doctrine, in fact they fit together quite well. This has been shown to you over and over and over again with quotes from the Bible, with reasoned responses, and with faith. Mormon doctrine clearly opposes what you believe not the Bible. I think that what you believe isn't opposed by the bible either but it isn't the fullness of truth. I came to find that Mormonism is the closest to what God wants by praying about it, as the Bible instructs. When I prayed and studied scripture I felt the holy spirit, as is promised to me by scripture. I don't think you worship the Devil or are deceived by satanic spirits, I just think the fullness of truth hasn't been revealed to you yet. You worship the same God I do and read the same bible I do.

[a-train]

xanmad33,

Please answer my questions. If you will show me this courtesy, I will answer yours.

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear, God (Jesus) has a body of flesh and bone, correct?

Please just answer my questions from your point of view. I know very well how Joseph Smith and LDS leaders answer these questions.

-a-train

[Flyonthewall]

I am not talking to Atheists here, am I?

I did not know I needed to prove there was a God to you?

You don't need to prove there is a G_d. I was asking you to prove your beliefs. Our beliefs differ, so prove your beliefs are correct.

My argument has not been about that. At all.

We both claim to believe in God correct? We both claim to believe in the Bible correct?

Correct.

My questions have been consistant in getting to the bottom of all your doctrinal differences than what the Bible teaches.

I already know the Bible is true and you are right, that is my own exclusive belief, albeit supported by a great many facts, but still after all the facts are displayed, it does take a leap of faith to believe it is the INFALLABLE word of God. That is all that's contested, and I resigned to that argument long ago in this thread.

Okay, I'm with ya!

My point again...

We both believe in the Bible according to everyone here... In it, there are CLEAR opposing doctrines to that of Mormonism, so HOW do you know yours is right?

If you believe in the Bible like you say you do, how come you cannot reconcile your beliefs to the Word?

Your premise is faulty, because we reconcile our beliefs with the Bible very well. We get a different understanding than you from the Bible. We read the same Biblical passages, and you get 'X' from it, we get 'Y' from it. I can see why you read it and understand it the way you do, but the way I read and understand it makes perfect sense to me. Which, I beleive will get back to "how do you know your beliefs are correct and not mine?"

I have heard many times that you "know" that your prophet is true because of a feeling, and I have challenged that belief using the Bible. (The Bible you claim to believe in)

If one were to do a comparative investigation of The BOM and the Bible and other Mormon books of doctrine, the evidence FOR the Bible is astonishing!

I have used reason to argue these points, not emotion.

I am appealing to logic.

First of all, reason and logic have their place, but their presence is minimal in religion. Reason and logic have to be partially suspended to accomodate the supernatural. Most of the things in the Bible defy "reason and logic", especially the things of G_d.

As you remember, the Pharisees and the Saduccees made the same statement against Jesus Christ. In their eyes, it was neither reasonable nor logical that He was the Son of G_d.

Jesus told Peter, that the Kingdom of G_d was going to be founded upon the rock of revelation, not by flesh and blood. Revelation from G_d comes through the Holy Ghost, which you seem to discount on our part.

The logic and reason we follow is: Read the Book of Mormon. Is the message it conveys true? Ponder and pray about it.

"And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

I know this will involve "feelings" and "emotions", but revelation is what our beliefs are founded on.

[xanmad33]

No your argument has been that we're deceived by Satan & that we either pray to Satan, to no one our to ourselves.

Obviously you do not believe the bible is the infallible word of God. It's infallible up to the point where it disagrees with your denomination's beliefs, then it becomes open to re-translation and contextual debate as can be seen by the post above.

Really? Hmm... So because in areas not concerning the Nature of God or my Salvation, there may be some gray areas means I do not believe the Bible to be infallable?

My argument have been the Biblical test for determining such questions, they are extremely logical to those who already believe the Bible.

Answer this you being a woman and the bible being infallible --- 1 Corinthians 33-36 As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 --- Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I suppose those verses aren't taken in context and they're just meant to specific people in that time, or our translation of something isn't being properly translated?

In studying the Bible, as a whole there is something called the law of first mention.

When something is mentioned in Scripture the first time, the same meaning for that verse holds true for subsequent verses. An example of this law is in Genesis 17:5, where GOD gave authority to Abram by changing his name to Abraham, and making him "The Father of a Multitude of Nations".

Next is in Genesis 17:15-16, where GOD gave authority to Sarai, by changing her name to Sarah, and making her "The Mother of all Nations".

Then there is Matthew 16:18. GOD changed the name of Simon to Peter, and gave to him the authority of the Church, and supremacy over all of the other Apostles.

The first mention in the Bible of woman was of equality to God of both Adam and Eve.

When one read's the Bible if there is one verse that stands out as contrary to the rest of the Bible, then you need to re-read the full context and facor in the weight of all scripture. You cannot pick one scripture and hold fast to that alone, you need to study the entire book and take the full weight into account.

True Biblical scholors who look at scripture and study it, and apply systematic theology, will never be able to honestly justify and quantify one scripture that opposes the overall message of the Bible. The time and place in history for example, need to be factored in here. There was for a reason for that to be there.. God does not make mistakes. Personally I believe it was placed there as a stumbling block, which in the Bible God has done before to expose that which is in the heart, and for those who would stumble to grow and seek God. We need to search God's word and pray for better understanding but there are far far too many opposing scriptures to only hold fast to one that contradicts the weight of the entire scripture. We need to "rightly divide" his word here and seek a better understanding Biblically.

in Genesis it is clear..."So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

So right there, they were both given equal footing with God, right from the beginning. They were BOTH created in his image.

Another example is in Judges 4 or 5?

Deborah...she held the highest position that could be held in the nation at that time. Deborah was a judge in Isreal.

---Right in the middle of the Old Testament.--- God did that on purpose!!!

Deborah lived in the grace of the new covenant before it had even been established. At that time, she ruled during the age of judges this was BEFORE the age of Kings !! That means it was the highest office in Isreal, (basically the equivelant of the Presidency today) and Isreal of course is the Nation of God.

He is the one who appointed the Judges.

God does everything on purpose. He put Deborah in the middle of the old testament and gave her the highest position he could give her. He did this on purpose.

All through the Bible time and time again this prejudice is expelled.

Jesus, in the new testament, in a culture that woman were looked at as lower, he broke all the rules... he lets woman come into the room and sit at his feet as he preaches (for that time and culture this speaks volumes) He chose a woman to be the first who sees him after he has risen and to go and proclaim it to the men!! She was not believed and that is when Jesus appeared to them.etc. etc. Jesus calls women diciples!

Paul writing his letters of instruction talks a lot about woman. Look at the story of Junias....Paul also talks about Pricilla in the Bible.. a woman who ran a church out of her home...She was a paster and a teacher! Paul used that example to respond to letters to the church, in that time, to correct and to teach. He spoke and directed the church on many issues such as speaking in tounges, and orderly worship, etc. All these issues he adreesses partly because the culture of the day, he is adressing the distinction that is wrong for woman to do such things.. you must read it in the context--Paul makes mention of women and thier positions on purpose. Paul states that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, bond nor free, male nor female, but we are all one in Christ!!

Our prejudices against people as if one is better than another based on there gender or any other thing is completely opposed to fundamental christianity

[Dale]

Does Jesus the spirit part have an identifiable personality distinct from the Father? The idea that the three persons are distinct at the same time seems to say so. But in the next breath its denied they are distinct beings. That they arn't really beings because that would turn the Godhead into a committee of Gods. So in ponderering the creedal idea of God i have been looking for a definition that explains what a distinct center of consciousness within God is. The true definition of the persons in the creeds is that these distinct centers of consciousness are mere roles of an actor God.

It is not a mystery that God and Christ are two persons. I only see three ways they can be two persons. They can be distinct personalities of the same essence, but i see this idea as contradicting the creedal definition they are non-persons. Unless they are saying they can be both non-persons and have personalities at the same time. But that still seems like an logical impossibility to me. They can be mere roles of God. And they can be two modern persons like i define persons.

The idea of the Trinity is supposed to be a 100% Biblical. But i look in vain for the meaning of the latin word persona in scripture. I do not see Jesus ever teaching him and the Father were non-persons in order to avoid non-polytheistic definitions of person.

[xanmad33]

You don't need to prove there is a G_d. I was asking you to prove your beliefs. Our beliefs differ, so prove your beliefs are correct.

Correct.

Okay, I'm with ya!

Your premise is faulty, because we reconcile our beliefs with the Bible very well. We get a different understanding than you from the Bible. We read the same Biblical passages, and you get 'X' from it, we get 'Y' from it. I can see why you read it and understand it the way you do, but the way I read and understand it makes perfect sense to me. Which, I beleive will get back to "how do you know your beliefs are correct and not mine?"

First of all, reason and logic have their place, but their presence is minimal in religion. Reason and logic have to be partially suspended to accomodate the supernatural. Most of the things in the Bible defy "reason and logic", especially the things of G_d.

When we start with the premise that we both believe the Bible to be true (which we have)

Then it is with logic, based on that joint belief, that we are tackling this subject matter.

Because we both believe in the Bible, we can use reason.

If you were an Atheist, then you are right, logic, and reason would not apply.

As you remember, the Pharisees and the Saduccees made the same statement against Jesus Christ. In their eyes, it was neither reasonable nor logical that He was the Son of G_d.

Jesus told Peter, that the Kingdom of G_d was going to be founded upon the rock of revelation, not by flesh and blood. Revelation from G_d comes through the Holy Ghost, which you seem to discount on our part.

The logic and reason we follow is: Read the Book of Mormon. Is the message it conveys true? Ponder and pray about it.

"And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

I know this will involve "feelings" and "emotions", but revelation is what our beliefs are founded on.

I have already adressed this argument.

[a-train]

Are my posts invisible?

xanmad33,

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear, God (Jesus) has a body of flesh and bone, correct?

Please just answer my questions from your point of view. I know very well how Joseph Smith and LDS leaders answer these questions.

-a-train

[xanmad33]

...

Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus 8:10)

"For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. (Exodus 9:14)

"To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)

"Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other. (Deuteronomy 4:39)

"Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! (Deuteronomy 6:4)

`See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)

"There is none like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to your help, And through the skies in His majesty. (Deuteronomy 33:26)

"There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides Thee, Nor is there any rock like our God. (1 Samuel 2:2)

"For this reason Thou art great, O Lord God; for there is none like Thee, and there is no God besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Samuel 7:22)

And he said, "O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like Thee in heaven above or on earth beneath, who art keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart, (1 Kings 8:23)

so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no one else. (1 Kings 8:60)

He trusted in the Lord, the God of Israel; so that after him there was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among those who were before him. (2 Kings 18:5)

"O Lord, there is none like Thee, neither is there any God besides Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chronicles 17:20)

And he said, "O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no god like Thee in heaven or on earth, keeping covenant and showing lovingkindness to Thy servants who walk before Thee with all their heart;" (2 Chronicles 6:14)

Many, O Lord my God, are the wonders which Thou hast done, And Thy thoughts toward us; There is none to compare with Thee; If I would declare and speak of them, They would be too numerous to count. (Psalms 40:5)

There is no one like Thee among the gods, O Lord; Nor are there any works like Thine. (Psalms 86:8)

"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; And there is no savior besides Me." (Isaiah 43:10-11)

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: `I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.'" (Isaiah 44:6)

`Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'" (Isaiah 44:8)

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other," (Isaiah 45:5-6)

Thus says the Lord, "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: `Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.'" (Isaiah 45:14)

For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), "I am the Lord, and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18)

"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:21-22)

"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, (Isaiah 46:9)

There is none like Thee, O Lord; Thou art great, and great is Thy name in might. (Jeremiah 10:6)

Yet I have been the Lord your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me. (Hosea 13:4)

"Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, And that I am the Lord your God And there is no other; And My people will never be put to shame. (Joel 2:27)

"Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers? (Malachi 2:10)

Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;" (Mark 12:29-32)

"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? (John 5:44)

"You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." (John 8:41)

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. (1 Corinthians 8:4)

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, (Hebrews 6:13)

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. (James 2:19)

1st Timothy tells us that God was manifest in the flesh

[xanmad33]

here are some verses to clarify that Jesus is fully divine

Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? -GOD--1 Chronicles 29:11 --JESUS--Philippians 3:20-21

Who is omniscient (all knowing)? -GOD---1 John 3:20--JESUS-- Colossians 2:2-3

Who is omnipresent (present everywhere)?GOD-- Proverbs 15:3 JESUS--2 Corinthians 2:14

Who is Lord of Sabbath? GOD--Genesis 2:3 --JESUS--Matthew 12:8

Who is the great "I am?" GOD--Exodus 3:14 -JESUS--John 8:58

Who is the only creator?--GOD-- Isaiah 44:24 JESUS-- John 1:3

Who is the only savior? --GOD--Isaiah 43:11, JESUS--45:21 Acts 4:12

Who will judge mankind?--GOD-- Isaiah 3:13, 14 -JESUS--2 Corinthians 5:10

Who will judge between the sheep and goats?GOD-- Ezekiel 34:17 JESUS--Matthew 25:31-33

Who sent the prophets? GOD--Jeremiah 7:25 JESUS--Matthew 23:34

Who resurrected Jesus? GOD--Acts 4:10 JESUS--John 10:17-18

Who is "coming in glory?" GOD--Isaiah 40:5 JESUS--Matthew 24:30

Who is our Father? GOD--Isaiah 63:16 JESUS--Isaiah 9:6

Who is the "first and last?"GOD-- Isaiah 44:6 JESUS--Revelation 1:17

Who is Rock of salvation? GOD--2 Samuel 22:32 JESUS--1 Corinthians 10:4

Who is Stone of stumbling? GOD--Isaiah 8:13-15 JESUS--1 Peter 2:8

"One crying in the wilderness" came to prepare a way for whom? GOD--Isaiah 40:3 JESUS--Matthew 3:3

Who is eternal? GOD--Genesis 21:33 JESUS-- Micah 5:2

Who is the fountain of living waters?GOD-- Jeremiah 17:13 JESUS--John 4:10-14

Who resurrects the dead? GOD--Acts 26:8 JESUS--John 6:40

Who gives rewards to man? GOD--Isaiah 40:10 JESUS--Matthew 16:27

Who has all authority and power? GOD--1 Chronicles 29:11 JESUS--Matthew 28:18

Who gives power and authority to man? GOD--Psalms 68:35 JESUS--Luke 9:1

Who forgives sin? GOD--2 Chronicles 7:14 JESUS--Matthew 9:6

Who sent the Holy Spirit? GOD--John 14:16 JESUS--John 16:7

Who has the greatest name? GOD--Nehemiah 9:5 JESUS--Philippians 2:9

Whom are we to worship? GOD--Exodus 34:14 JESUS--Revelation 5:12-13

Who is the good Shepherd? GOD--Genesis 48:15 JESUS--John 10:14

Who searches for the lost sheep of Israel? GOD--Ezekiel 34:11 JESUS--Matthew 15:24

Who is "Lord of Lords?" GOD--Deuteronomy 10:17 JESUS--Revelation 17:14

To whom shall every knee bow? GOD--Isaiah 45:22-23 JESUS--Philippians 2:10

Who is the righteous branch of David? GOD--Jeremiah 23:5-6 JESUS--Jeremiah 33:15

Who alone is Holy? GOD--1 Samuel 2:2 JESUS--Acts 3:14

Whose blood cleanses us? GOD--Acts 20:28 JESUS--1 John 1:7

The world was created for whom? GOD--Proverbs 16:4 JESUS--Colossians 1:16

Who is above all? GOD--Nehemiah 9:6 JESUS--Romans 9:5

Who is forever the same? GOD--Psalms 102:24-27 JESUS--Hebrews 1:8-12

Who is our light? Psalms GOD--27:1 JESUS--John 8:12

Who is the way or path? GOD--Psalms 16:11 JESUS--John 14:6

Who is in charge of the angels? GOD--Psalms 103:20 JESUS--2 Thessalonians 1:7

Who gives us rest? GOD--Exodus 33:14 JESUS--Matthew 11:28

Who gives eternal life? GOD--Proverbs 19:23 JESUS--John 3:36

We are the bride of whom? GOD--Isaiah 54:5 JESUS--2 Corinthians 11:2

Who tests the heart and mind? GOD--Jeremiah 17:10 JESUS--Revelation 2:23

[xanmad33]

This is to show that the Holy Spirit is also God...

The first verse is a reference to God, the second is a reference to the Holy Spirit

Who gives eternal life? Proverbs 19:23 Ezekiel 37:14, John 6:63, Romans 8:2, 8:6, 11, 13, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Galatians 6:8

Who gives grace? Psalms 84:11 Zechariah 12:10, Hebrews 10:29

Who gives power and authority to man? Psalms 68:35 Micah 3:8, Acts 1:8, 20:28 Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 2:4, Ephesians 3:16, 4:3, 1 Thessalonians 1:5

Who has authority and power? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Micah 3:8, Luke 1:35, 4:14, Romans 15:13, 19, Ephesians 3:16

Who has glory? Isaiah 40:5 2 Corinthians 3:8

Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33 John 14:16, Hebrews 9:14

Who is Holy? 1 Samuel 2:2 Romans 1:4

Who is omnipresent Jeremiah 23:24 Psalms 139:7

Who is omniscient? 1 John 3:20 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11

Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16 Matthew 10:20

Who is our Savior? Isaiah 43:11, 45:21, Psalms 62:2, 6, Hosea 13:4 Romans 8:11-15, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30

Who is the Creator? Genesis 1:31, Isaiah 44:24, Nehemiah 9:6, Mark 13:19, Revelation 4:11 Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalms 104:30

Who is the truth? Psalms 31:5, Isaiah 65:16 John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, 1 John 5:7

Who is the way or path? Psalms 16:11 Judges 13:25, 1 Samuel 11:6, 16:13, Isaiah 63:14, Psalms 143:10, Romans 8:14, Galatians 5:16, 2 Peter 1:21

Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10 Romans 8:11

Who resurrects the dead? Acts 26:8 Romans 8:11

Who sent the prophets? Jeremiah 7:25 Numbers 11:25, 26, 29, 24:2, 1 Samuel 10:6, 10, 19:20, 23, Joel 2:28, Zechariah 7:12, Matthew 22:43, John 16:13, Acts 2:17, 11:28, 19:6, Ephesians 3:5, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 9:8, 1 Peter 1:11, 2 Peter 1:21

Whom are we to worship? Exodus 34:14 Philippians 3:3

[xanmad33]

Here is scripture showing that The Father is also God

Like the last posts, the first verse is God, the second verse is reference to the Father...

To whom shall every knee bow? Isaiah 45:22-23 Ephesians 3:14

Who forgives sin? 2 Chronicles 7:14 Matthew 6:14, 15, Luke 23:34

Who gives eternal life? Proverbs 19:23 John 12:50

Who gives power and authority to man? Psalms 68:35 Luke 24:49, Acts 1:7, 1 Corinthians 15:24, Revelation 2:27

Who gives rewards to man? Isaiah 40:10 Matthew 6:1, 4, 6, John 12:26

Who has all authority and power? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Matthew 11:25, Acts 1:7

Who has glory? Isaiah 40:5 Matthew 16:27, Mark 8:38, John 14:13, 15:8, 17:5, Romans 6:4, 15:6, Ephesians 1:17, Philippians 2:11, 4:20

Who has the greatest name? Nehemiah 9:5 John 12:28

Who is called God? 1 Kings 8:60, Psalms 118:27 Psalms 89:26

Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33 Isaiah 63:16

Who is Holy? 1 Samuel 2:2 Matthew 6:9, Luke 11:2, John 17:11

Who is in charge of the angels? Psalms 103:20 Matthew 26:53

Who is in Heaven? Deuteronomy 4:39, 10:14 Matthew 5:16, 45, 48, 6:9, 14, 7:21

Who is Jesus? Jeremiah 23:5-6 John 14:7

Who is omnipotent Matthew 18:19, John 10:29, Ephesians 4:6

Who is omniscient 1 John 3:20 1 Peter 1:2

Who is one? Deuteronomy 6:4 Matthew 23:9

Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16 Psalms 89:26

Who is our light? Psalms 27:1 Colossians 1:12, James 1:17

Who is our savior? Isaiah 43:11, 45:21 Isaiah 63:16

Who is perfect? Deuteronomy 32:4 Matthew 5:48

Who is Rock of salvation? 2 Samuel 22:32 Psalms 89:26

Who is the creator? Isaiah 44:24 Malachi 2:10

Who is the Holy Spirit Exodus 31:3, 35:31 Matthew 10:20

Who lives in believers? Deuteronomy 33:12 John 14:23

Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10 Romans 6:4

Who resurrects the dead? Acts 26:8 John 5:21

Who sanctifies us? Exodus 31:13, Leviticus 20:8 Hebrews 2:11

Who sent Jesus? John 6:29, John 17:3 John 5:37, 8:18, 16:27, 28, 17:21, 25, 20:21

Who sent the Holy Spirit? Isaiah 48:16, 63:11, John 14:16 Luke 11:13, Acts 2:33

Who will judge mankind? Isaiah 3:13, 14 1 Peter 1:17

Whom are we to worship? Exodus 34:14 John 4:21, Ephesians 3:14

Whose kingdom is in Heaven? 2 Timothy 4:1 Matthew 13:32, 25:34, Luke 11:2, 1 Corinthians 15:24

If the Father claims to be the only God and like wise the Son, and The Holy spirit, who is lying?

If we are commanded to worship God alone but also commanded to worship Jesus , who should we worship?

If the father resureccted Jesus and Jesus resurrected himself, and the Holy spirit also claims to have resurrected Jesus, who really resurrected Jesus?

[a-train]

If the Father claims to be the only God and like wise the Son, and The Holy spirit, who is lying?

None

If we are commanded to worship God alone but also commanded to worship Jesus , who should we worship?

God, They are One God.

If the father resureccted Jesus and Jesus resurrected himself, and the Holy spirit also claims to have resurrected Jesus, who really resurrected Jesus?

God, They are One God.

Now, can you answer my questions please?

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear, God (Jesus) has a body of flesh and bone, correct?

Please just answer my questions from your point of view. I know very well how Joseph Smith and LDS leaders answer these questions.

-a-train

[xanmad33]

a-train

Do you believe there are many gods?

Do you believe the father, the son and the holy spirit are 3 seperate gods?

Did not Joseph Smith describes the creation of the earth: "And they (the Gods) said, 'Let there be light'...And the Gods pronounced the dry land...And the Gods organized the earth...And the Gods planted a garden in Eden" (Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4:3,10,25; 5:8)?

Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie states: "Three separate personages---Father, Son, and Holy Ghost---comprise the Godhead...As each of these persons is a God, it is evident from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us...these three are the only Gods we worship" (Mormon Doctrine, p.576-577).

You may not personally recognize this doctrine, but it is a clear teaching of your church.